The Force - midichlorians and Force power?

Sluis Van Shipyards

Sluis Van Shipyards

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I didn't want to add this to the TLJ thread, but it applies. And yes I know some people hate midichlorians, but they've been there since ANH (Rinzler Making of ANH book) even if it wasn't on screen. I was thinking that in the Prequels they seem to equate, or I took it this way, the number of midichlorians with the power of the person. Obi Wan says Anakin has a higher count than Yoda, which seems to mean that Anakin could eventually be more powerful than Yoda. Or does it? Yoda is over 900 years old, so obviously he's had a LOT of time to learn and perfect his abilities. He may even have abilities that other Jedi didn't have or couldn't perform because of Yoda having more time to learn then. Now does that mean that Anakin, or his kids, could be more powerful than Yoda or have different abilities that Yoda couldn't have used due to having a higher number of midichlorians, which essentially means more antennae to access the Force? I'm wondering if some powers require a lot of practice to hone or if someone like Anakin, who picks up stuff quickly either because of his midichlorian count or talent, could use these powers easier than Yoda because he has more access to the Force. If so they could have some cool new powers that Luke could use in the Sequels. They kept him fairly vanilla in the old EU as far as far as what he could do with the Force. The only thing I remember about his newer powers was being able to hide his presence in the Force (which obviously Sidious could do) and temporarily disrupting electronics (like surveillance cameras).
 
Dooku is tossing lightning at Yoda, he catches it and says "much to learn, you still have."

I think the force potential may be higher, and using basic force abilities (force grab, mind trick) comes easier. But learning is still required, just as the ability to learn advanced skills in real life still requires years of study. I believe Kylo and Luke have discovered new abilities the audience hasn't seen before, like force probing minds for secrets. Having higher count gives them more connections and should be able to give them more abilities, they had 30 years between Jedi and Awakens to learn, I just hope/wish we get to see their abilities explored. They can't be decendants of the actual force and not have extra special abilities, that would be disappointing!
 
For Anakin to have such a high count, the most frequently used force power that you see him use in the film is the force choke. Force wise, it doesn't seem that he progressed in powers at all after becoming Vader (at least that is shown on screen). Of course Palpatine could have been deliberately holding back on training Vader.
 
tcsmit29 said:
For Anakin to have such a high count, the most frequently used force power that you see him use in the film is the force choke. Force wise, it doesn't seem that he progressed in powers at all after becoming Vader (at least that is shown on screen). Of course Palpatine could have been deliberately holding back on training Vader.
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I read on fan theory that kinda clicked on that subject that Palpatine really was only interested in getting Anakin as Vader so that he had his thumb on the potentially strongest force holder ever...and limiting his chances to explore it....which made even more sense when Vader says to Luke " Join me and we can rule the galaxy together " So you know he felt like a prisoner to his position and was ready to make a move on over throwing Palpatine.
 
I like to think of midiclorians as Jedi psuedo-science, and the path to their eventual downfall. In trying to seek "power levels" and "potential" the Jedi have effectively begun to quantify the will of something far beyond their understanding, and thus lose sight of the living Force around them. It is that hubris that caused them to be blind sided by Palpatine's ascension and the growing presence of the Sith. Yoda's exile is what allows him true enlightenment, as he once again sees that the force is within all things, irrespective of size, genetics, or other intrinsic factors. The call of the Force is there for those who wish to hear it, as they are in fact already a living thread in its make-up.
 
tcsmit29 said:
For Anakin to have such a high count, the most frequently used force power that you see him use in the film is the force choke. Force wise, it doesn't seem that he progressed in powers at all after becoming Vader (at least that is shown on screen). Of course Palpatine could have been deliberately holding back on training Vader.
Click to expand...

Actually, the ROTS novelization (not top-tier canon, I know, but still a great, well-thought-out read) explicitly stated that Vader was somewhat a "ruined" version of Anakin, having lost his ability to wield the the Force as effectively as a result of the loss of his limbs and encasement in the suit; it also touched on Palpatine's disappointment at this turn of events as it essentially devalued the great apprentice he has spent so much time cultivating and threw a real wrench into his plans. So that was an extra level of "ironic tragedy" stated in the book - after all of the years of effort and behind-the-scenes manipulation to acquire the Chosen One as an apprentice, what Palpatine finally got - to his dismay - was damaged goods. So Vader's apparent lack of progression is attributable to him simply not having all of the abilities and potential that Anakin had. not Palpatine holding him back.

This view is supported in the films by Palpatine actively cultivating a replacement apprentice (Luke) at Vader's expense (just as he cultivated Anakin to replace the weaker Dooku); it also lines up with GL's explanation of why the OT duels were so "slow" compared to the over-the-top prequels - "in the prequels, we see Jedi at the top of their form, while the original trilogy shows an impaired man encased in a metal suit fighting, first, an old man and, later, a young, inexperience student." Supposedly vader's loss of his hands is also the explanation as to why he cannot conjure force lightning (like Palpatine) or defend against it (like Yoda.)

M
 
mkstewartesq said:
Supposedly vader's loss of his hands is also the explanation as to why he cannot conjure force lightning (like Palpatine) or defend against it (like Yoda.)
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Did he lose both hands? I know he lost one at the end of AOTC. I didn't realize that he lost the other one. Regardless, it seems weird to me that he can use his hand for one force power (choke) but not another (lightning). I assumed that Palpatine never taught him that power. Maybe the novelization is correct. I don't know. Its hard for me to judge if that is simply the author's opinion or an intended part of the story. I'm sure someone at Lucasfilm signed off on the novel. But what is the likelihood that they might think "it doesn't contradict anything, so what is the harm". I'm definitely sure that they never thought that fans would be debating it on the internet 35 years later.:)
 
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One other point...

The "ruined" view of Vader definitely fits. Also it is in character that a Sith master would withhold training of some skills from the apprentice. This is supported in the films in that Plageius didn't pass along all his knowledge to his apprentice. So both viewpoints can be correct.
 
tcsmit29 said:
Did he lose both hands? I know he lost one at the end of AOTC. I didn't realize that he lost the other one. Regardless, it seems weird to me that he can use his hand for one force power (choke) but not another (lightning). I assumed that Palpatine never taught him that power. Maybe the novelization is correct. I don't know. Its hard for me to judge if that is simply the author's opinion or an intended part of the story. I'm sure someone at Lucasfilm signed off on the novel. But what is the likelihood that they might think "it doesn't contradict anything, so what is the harm". I'm definitely sure that they never thought that fans would be debating it on the internet 35 years later.:)
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Couple points:

1. I think you are completely correct that he did not lose both hands (at least at that point (ROTS)). I just brain-farted on that. According to Heir to the Empire (Zahn), Palpatine later took his other hand as punishment - but that's most definitely not canon. And I can't recall if the glances we got of his skeleton in ROTJ indicated whether he still had his left arm by that time or not.

2. Agreed on the non-sensicality of not being able to generate Force Lightning without flesh hands, but nonetheless being able to do Force Choke. I try to rationalize it that Force Choke is more of a "mind" thing than actually generating energy - but that would still leave the ability to move objects (which Vader can do - see ESB) as inconsistent nonetheless. So I will plead the "I'm just telling you what GL said" defense on that one,.

3. If you haven't read the ROTS novelization, I'd recommend it; it's my favorite of the SW books, mainly because of the writing style and how it adds a ton to the story and the characters' motivations. (Again, for whatever "adding tons of stuff that likely isn't canon" is worth.) But it really gets into the heads of each character, much moreso than an average "novelization" - and all of the stuff I am citing above from it is contained in the last few pages around the time Anakin awakens as Vader. Just some great imagery about how (IIRC) Anakin felt like a virtuoso musician who had suddenly been struck deaf, or a master painter suddenly struck blind- and Palpatine viewed Vader and his suit as, in effect, a ruined treasure placed in a shiny jeweled box (which was a nice allusion to the lights on the chest armor, etc.).

M

EDIT - and, because I am a lawyer and it is in my nature to look for a technicality - did we ever see anyone in the films conjure Force Lighting with only one hand? I only remember the Emperor and Dooku doing it, and I thought they used both hands, (walks away smugly).
 
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tcsmit29 said:
Did he lose both hands? I know he lost one at the end of AOTC. I didn't realize that he lost the other one. Regardless, it seems weird to me that he can use his hand for one force power (choke) but not another (lightning). I assumed that Palpatine never taught him that power. Maybe the novelization is correct. I don't know. Its hard for me to judge if that is simply the author's opinion or an intended part of the story. I'm sure someone at Lucasfilm signed off on the novel. But what is the likelihood that they might think "it doesn't contradict anything, so what is the harm". I'm definitely sure that they never thought that fans would be debating it on the internet 35 years later.:)
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It not weird, it's physics. He's more machine than he is man. Electricity would fry his life support as demonstrated at the end of ROTJ.
 
Greenie said:
It not weird, it's physics. He's more machine than he is man. Electricity would fry his life support as demonstrated at the end of ROTJ.
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Beat me to it :)

Not only that, the whole suit and mechanical arm and legs were electrically powered - try and toss some lightning at someone and you're going to fry at least part of your suit...so, in a fight, do you want to lose you arm, legs, or life support system? Or just not use lightning?
 
mkstewartesq said:
2. Agreed on the non-sensicality of not being able to generate Force Lightning without flesh hands, but nonetheless being able to do Force Choke. I try to rationalize it that Force Choke is more of a "mind" thing than actually generating energy - but that would still leave the ability to move objects (which Vader can do - see ESB) as inconsistent nonetheless. So I will plead the "I'm just telling you what GL said" defense on that one,.

3. If you haven't read the ROTS novelization, I'd recommend it; it's my favorite of the SW books, mainly because of the writing style and how it adds a ton to the story and the characters' motivations. (Again, for whatever "adding tons of stuff that likely isn't canon" is worth.) But it really gets into the heads of each character, much moreso than an average "novelization" - and all of the stuff I am citing above from it is contained in the last few pages around the time Anakin awakens as Vader. Just some great imagery about how (IIRC) Anakin felt like a virtuoso musician who had suddenly been struck deaf, or a master painter suddenly struck blind- and Palpatine viewed Vader and his suit as, in effect, a ruined treasure placed in a shiny jeweled box (which was a nice allusion to the lights on the chest armor, etc.).

M

EDIT - and, because I am a lawyer and it is in my nature to look for a technicality - did we ever see anyone in the films conjure Force Lighting with only one hand? I only remember the Emperor and Dooku doing it, and I thought they used both hands, (walks away smugly).
Click to expand...

I actually thought that made sense. I think someone asked Lucas about this and he basically said you need living flesh to channel the lightning out of your body. When Anakin fights Dooku in ROTS he cuts off his hands to stop him from using Force lightning. So somehow that ability comes from the person so it's different than using a Force choke or pulling a gun from someone. I guess. I thought that in AOTC Dooku did shoot lightning with one hand. You don't get he full Force... that way though. :)

The book "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" is also pretty good. It's not canon now as far as I know, but it has a good explanation for how Vader's fighting style differs from Anakin. They said he had to change his style to protect his suit's life support equipment. That's a pretty good reason for how he cut out anything flashy and guards his center primarily.
 
Sluis Van Shipyards said:
II thought that in AOTC Dooku did shoot lightning with one hand.
Click to expand...

And you would be absolutely correct, thereby destroying my Hail-Mary-pass of a theory.


B84307C1-B06B-458A-A52E-BC115EAA0430.jpeg

And yes, I remember those details from Dark Lord. Another good book – I think I’m just really fascinated by the character of Darth Vader and so the insights in each of these novels really intrigued me.

M
 
Was never a fan of midichlorian thing; but I cannot argue their presence.

Just wanted to show support for the idea above about Yoda reaching enlightenment on Dagobah, and Jedi placing maybe too much focus on the science part.

After all.. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter". Suppose crude matter could also infer midichlorian ;)

Speaking of Vader's hands, it's often cited that he used his good, non-machine hand to deflect Han's blaster bolt in cloud city. But I swear I recall him using both, then using his right hand to snatch the blaster...

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk
 
Yeah, during the "high ground" scene as he jumps over, Obi Wan takes off both his legs and the other arm. As Ani is crawling up screaming "I Hate you!" all he has available to use is his mechanical hand. I thought that was common knowledge.
 
@harrisonp said something above that, to my shame, I've never even considered before and it totally makes sense for me. Even if it wasn't all that well executed in the film, this is great subtext.

Spring-boarding from that idea, it leads to what I've always held to be true when it came to the subject of midi-chlorians, as these were just "scientific" measures the Jedi do to see how apt one is to the Force. Or rather, how susceptible they are to it; how connected one is to it. It certainly makes them less like policemen and more like X-Men to me. I've never liked the idea that everyone and their mother could be a Jedi with training but only few can do it because it's "hard", people have to meet certain requirements in order to become one. Not to mean that normal people can't learn or benefit and work with Jedi, they just can't attain their powers. It makes the Jedi sound elitist and little unappealing but I think that makes for great subtext. Especially when the OT shows a more stripped back, spiritual understanding of it in contrast to the quantified and explicable PT ideas of the Force.

There's the Force and then there's the measure of their connection to it, and that's all midi-chlorians are. Within the full context of the six films, I appreciate it as a story device, especially when squared up with Luke's arc throughout the OT when he goes against the conventions held by the Jedi in the PT where it's a debate over power or experience, and Luke shows that it's neither: it's willpower. By RotJ, he isn't the greatest or most impressive, but his will to do good and right the old wrongs, aided with his grasp of the Force, he affects the change he wants to.
 
I was surprised that Midichlorians were an idea back around ANH time (per the Making of book). I initially didn't like the idea, but for the audience they needed a clear way to show us how the Jedi could figure out who had Force ability. Of course if it was an older kid a Jedi could use their senses and see that. A baby or someone who isn't aware of their power, probably not so much. I don't think it took any mystery away from it.

I also don't like the idea that anyone could be a Jedi. In the context of the films it becomes a better way to illustrate how easily people could turn on the Jedi because some people already believed the Jedi were treated specially and they know they can do things normal people can't. So that would be an easy wedge for the Emperor to drive in to get people to dismiss them. It would also be easier to convince people who were already wary about the Jedi, that the Jedi would try to overthrow the Republic. It's the same thing as how some people like to see rich, powerful, people or celebrities fall because they envy what they have.
 
I pretty much LIKED the addition of midichlorians to Star Wars.

Characters have been saying "The force is strong in (the Skywalker) family" since the OT. A person's amount of Force potential has always been influenced by their genetics/biology.

This is a very, very hi-tech world. It makes sense that they would have found an indirect indicator of Force ability. I find the Force concept a little bit more plausible with stuff like this thrown in.

I never interpreted a midichlorian count as a perfect infallible measurement of all potential. It's just a ballpark indicator of some things.
 
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