Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
Rey was abducted and psychicly tortured by Kylo. In addition she saw him murder Han and wound Finn deeply. I interpreted that scene to mean that she was mad at Luke because she felt that he was responsible for "creating" Kylo. Ultimately, she was blaming Luke for all the bad things which had happened to her. She yells something that I can't quote exactly now. It was something along the lines of "Did you create Kylo Ren?". She said this right before she hit him with the staff which prompted the fight. I heard somewhere that anger leads to the dark side. It gave her enough power to overcome Luke. But then she stopped after he was on the ground. This parallels the fight at the end of ROTJ when Luke bested Vader "only because" he was angry. A little bit of the old dark side creeping in.
gedmac66
Sr Member
@tcsmit29 , that’s an interesting ‘ take ‘ on why the scene played out like it did . Having only seen the film once ( that was enough ) in the theatre when released ,
I can’t recall her reacting to Luke that way because of those reasons . All I remember is Rey acting out of some , anger and ‘ frustration ‘ whilst apparently taking Ren’s side of events before attacking .
Maybe she was blaming him with ‘ feelings ‘ of hatred that Ren felt for him ( residual thoughts left during their ‘ specially ‘ arranged bonding moments ) - I just don’t remember it that way and it certainly wasn’t made clear as to why .
Her motivations were just as badly mishandled as much as the other ST characters ( imo ) , all in the name of subverting expectations !
:cheersGed
I can’t recall her reacting to Luke that way because of those reasons . All I remember is Rey acting out of some , anger and ‘ frustration ‘ whilst apparently taking Ren’s side of events before attacking .
Maybe she was blaming him with ‘ feelings ‘ of hatred that Ren felt for him ( residual thoughts left during their ‘ specially ‘ arranged bonding moments ) - I just don’t remember it that way and it certainly wasn’t made clear as to why .
Her motivations were just as badly mishandled as much as the other ST characters ( imo ) , all in the name of subverting expectations !
:cheersGed
Last edited:
JD
Master Member
Nope. Not at all.
I liked the movie - quite a bit, it's unfortunate that others didn't. So many just seem miserable and desperate in attempts to rationalize their dislike for the film. It's just silly, "I hate Star Wars so much, I'm gonna blame Kathleen Kennedy/Rian Johnson/Bob Iger/Disney and their *fill in the blank* agenda" (and the quasi-political rants... sheesh) and make post after post about it (actually, it gets kinda scary).
I'd love to discuss the movie rationally again - however, there's not really any fruitful discussion here. Sure, there are some folks that are interested in actual discussion and there have been some great posts recently (and I do applaud them and their attempts - whether they liked it or not. Sadly, I think this thread has gone beyond that possibility now.
535 days until Episode IX.
mkstewartesq
Sr Member
I think there was not only a mix of the elements cited in both of these posts, but also a third factor - that Luke, who she viewed as "refusing to help" (after likely "creating" the problem), was now further trying to actually stop her from taking a course of action that she felt could save the Resistance and end the war. During that exchange, she says to Luke: "There is still conflict in him. If he turned from the dark side, that could shift the tide. This could be how we win!"
So, while not markedly better, this last line does - for me at least - help make the scene less a whiplash from "Rey hates Kylo" in TFA to "Rey sympathizes with Kylo" like TLJ seems to be suggesting in many scenes. I think there is some sympathy there - but there's also the element that she thinks she sees a way to end the reign of the First Order, and perceives Luke to be keeping her from doing it.
M
gedmac66
Sr Member
@JD , I’m happy you enjoyed it . I didn’t , and I’ve shared some of the reasons as to why .
I agree , it’s unfortunate that both sides here appear to take , at times , extreme arguments to justify their rationale for feeling the way they do .
I guess we’ll put that down to people being passionate about the subject matter at hand , and the fact that some of us just can’t accept that TLJ didn’t even try to play like Pt.2 of a trilogy , nor in some instances , a Star Wars film .
:cheersGed
I agree , it’s unfortunate that both sides here appear to take , at times , extreme arguments to justify their rationale for feeling the way they do .
I guess we’ll put that down to people being passionate about the subject matter at hand , and the fact that some of us just can’t accept that TLJ didn’t even try to play like Pt.2 of a trilogy , nor in some instances , a Star Wars film .
:cheersGed
JD
Master Member
This thread went way off track quite a while before I saw a post of yours. The truth is, it's also comments like...
...anyhow, back to lurking.
...that make me shake my head. You "can't accept TLJ" - that's just sounds childish. TLJ happened - it's a Star Wars movie and it's not going away anytime soon. But, hey - at least your points aren't simply "Ermahgerd, Kathleen Kennedy..." nor did you create the RPF equivalent of midichlorians to justify your anti-SW agenda. (See what I did there? :rolleyes ).
...anyhow, back to lurking.
Last edited:
I made a gif of this to demonstrate, that I put here. Does this look like Luke is slipping on a rock? To me it looks like he's scared as hell after an angry student pulls a live saber on him and winds up to swing. This is why the retcon in the comic bothered me: people have complained about this scene, and low and behold it's changed in another adaptation in a way that completely changes the tone. Luke's just clumsy, and Rey is using the saber as a makeshift flashlight... lol.
Last edited:
JPH
Sr Member
It didn't play like a Star Wars movie at all. It played like a Disney cartoon. Y'know, for little kids.
An orphan saves the day. People with no training defeat those with years of training. Oh wait, Rey swung a light saber at a rock for a few hours.
Like I said, it doesn't matter how well you point out the flaws. The gross flaws. And really, the stupid used to drive the story, some folks just don't care. They like the broken bits.
Lot's folks agree TLJ is *not* a Star Wars movie. When things cool down, if Disney wakes up, Star Wars will (hopefully) go back to being actual Star Wars. Otherwise, Disney will continue to bleed money making the kiddies happy.
Remember when Solo was an imperial officer who was supposed to kill Chewey, but instead, freed him? If Solo had been about that, it would have crushed other films at the BO.
JPH
Sr Member
Well, not the first time Luke had a student turn on him. If he slipped, a decent director would have shown a foot slip...something!?!?
No matter how well you prove your point...
mkstewartesq
Sr Member
Well, for better or worse, that’s EXACTLY how a Star Wars movie played in at least a third of of the pre-Disney films.
ANH
An orphan saves the day - Luke
People with no training defeat those with years of training - Luke vs. Death Star, countless Stormtroopers and pilots
TPM
An orphan saves the day - Anakin
People with no training defeat those with years of training - Anakin, Jar-Jar vs .Trade Federation Army
You could throw ROTJ in there to make it an even half of the pre-Disney films, but I think it’s also fair to say that Luke’s training as a Jedi made up for his orphan status, and the Ewoks at least had their own jungle training. So we can just leave it out.
Not saying that’s great, because frankly it’s getting more than a little tired. But it is the Star Wars way, as envisioned by GL.
M
ETA - yes, I know that Anakin was not technically an orphan because he still had a mother. But he was separated from her and on his own, so functionally an orphan for purposes of the story. (And Luke’s father was still technically alive, though we didn’t know that at the time). Since we don’t know whether Rey’s parents are really alive or dead, functionally equivalent.
Jagjaguwar
Sr Member
Ok, I’ll bite. What the heck does this even mean? Obviously, it’s a film made by Disney/Lucasfilm, using SW characters, in SW locations, in a SW trilogy taking place after other SW films. Are we really having to discuss this? “Not what I expected from a Star Wars film” I could understand, or “Not what I wanted from a Force Awakens sequel.” But denying that the film is what we all know it is seems a bit silly. (Or, um, childish. Did someone mention “kiddies?”)
As a general rule, whenever I hear a phrase like “Lots of people are saying...,” or “Most people think that...” I begin to suspect that whatever idea follows is not strong enough to stand on its own without that added qualifier.
Did you mean to say “it doesn’t feel like a Star Wars movie to me,” or something like that? Even the silly hashtag of “#notMYstarwars” sort of makes sense, as that’s also opinion-based. But saying it’s not even a Star Wars film?
JPH
Sr Member
Uh, Vader was Luke father.
Wow! You make that too easy.
SPOILER ALERT : Leia was also *related* to Vader. But I'll be nice and not tell you how. It might spoil your party.
People seem to get upset when I use the word "stupid"!?!?!?
False comparisons are not legitimate comparisons.
Even with the multitude of deleted post on Star Wars cites and deleted reviews on movie review sites like Rotten Tomatoes there are "lot's of people saying it stank."
46% on Rotten Tomatoes. So, using math (remember how I said math wasn't gonna work?) that means 54% didnt like. So yes, "lot's of people are saying it stank."
54 is greater than 46. And that means a majority of people recommend *not* seeing it.
So, when you dismiss "stupid" or "Lot's of people..." is comes across as "you liked it, but can't understand why others don't." And then we explain ourselves, and you still don't get it. Then you say people aren't being reasonable or rational, but someone spoon-feeds you a gif of a movie scene and you still claim it isn't convincing. Someone ask why a bomber would arm its bombs while still inside, and people defend it, or a prank call to a general...the list goes on.
Hmmm, didn't I predict that?
The issues lies in "what does it take for you to realize a movie is bad?" TLJ met those criteria for "most" people (see Rotten tomatoes reference above), but it is easier to insist people *convince* you, especially when you are Hellbent on *not* being convinced.
Read through this thread and the Kathleen Kennedy thread, there are many examples of failures in the sorry film that is The Last Jedi.
If you like it, go ahead and like it, but stop dismissing the spectacular failures of this film.
And while you are biting...
look at the endless stream of damage control from Disney over this crapfest. Rian J vacillating back and forth from "it is legit" to "delicious fanboy tears."
Solo lost a lot of money. Stay tuned, more to come if Disney doesn't wake up.
Wow! You make that too easy.
SPOILER ALERT : Leia was also *related* to Vader. But I'll be nice and not tell you how. It might spoil your party.
People seem to get upset when I use the word "stupid"!?!?!?
False comparisons are not legitimate comparisons.
Even with the multitude of deleted post on Star Wars cites and deleted reviews on movie review sites like Rotten Tomatoes there are "lot's of people saying it stank."
46% on Rotten Tomatoes. So, using math (remember how I said math wasn't gonna work?) that means 54% didnt like. So yes, "lot's of people are saying it stank."
54 is greater than 46. And that means a majority of people recommend *not* seeing it.
So, when you dismiss "stupid" or "Lot's of people..." is comes across as "you liked it, but can't understand why others don't." And then we explain ourselves, and you still don't get it. Then you say people aren't being reasonable or rational, but someone spoon-feeds you a gif of a movie scene and you still claim it isn't convincing. Someone ask why a bomber would arm its bombs while still inside, and people defend it, or a prank call to a general...the list goes on.
Hmmm, didn't I predict that?
The issues lies in "what does it take for you to realize a movie is bad?" TLJ met those criteria for "most" people (see Rotten tomatoes reference above), but it is easier to insist people *convince* you, especially when you are Hellbent on *not* being convinced.
Read through this thread and the Kathleen Kennedy thread, there are many examples of failures in the sorry film that is The Last Jedi.
If you like it, go ahead and like it, but stop dismissing the spectacular failures of this film.
And while you are biting...
look at the endless stream of damage control from Disney over this crapfest. Rian J vacillating back and forth from "it is legit" to "delicious fanboy tears."
Solo lost a lot of money. Stay tuned, more to come if Disney doesn't wake up.
Jagjaguwar
Sr Member
Ok, so are you now suggesting that a fan poll on a website is a valid way of gauging the opinion of every person who watched the film? This is ridiculous, as only a tiny portion of viewers (and in RT’s case, a large number of non-viewers) actually vote. And those who do had to visit the website of their own free will in order to do so. So using that as a way of proving anything is a flimsy way of propping up an argument.
To my knowledge, they didn’t poll every single person who saw TLJ, nor do they have a representative sample of viewers (something they would need to have for the RT poll to mean much.)
What we’re left with is akin to the advertisements that say “9 out of 10 doctors agree, this toothbrush is the best,” with no indication as to who any of them are or whether they are qualified by to give their opinions.
edit: The rest of that last post was all over the place and too scattered for me to really respond to. Much of it didn’t make any sense even after reading it multiple times. Sorry.
Last edited:
Jagjaguwar
Sr Member
Moving things in a different direction...
https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-l...uide-akira-kurosawa-jurassic-park-twin-peaks/
Read this a while back and thought it was interesting. A few homages that I noticed, a lot that I didn’t catch. Who knows if the Escape From LA ending is similar, but I guess it’s possible.
Worth mentioning that the original SW films are also full of homages, too. This isn’t some new phenomenon brought about by Rian Johnson:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars--a-new-hope/movies-influences-george-lucas/
https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-l...uide-akira-kurosawa-jurassic-park-twin-peaks/
Read this a while back and thought it was interesting. A few homages that I noticed, a lot that I didn’t catch. Who knows if the Escape From LA ending is similar, but I guess it’s possible.
Worth mentioning that the original SW films are also full of homages, too. This isn’t some new phenomenon brought about by Rian Johnson:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars--a-new-hope/movies-influences-george-lucas/
Last edited:
therethere
Active Member
Whatever happened to IMO?
JPH
Sr Member
I had to save this quote for prosperity.
Annakin and orphan? Raised by his mom, gladly taken by jedi...Yeah, just like Rey. Oh, and the whole slave thing, how did Rey get rid of her chip?
I could keep going but maybe you should WATCH the first six movies first.
You would be fun at parties, for everyone else.
JPH
Sr Member
Rotten Tomatoes actually deleted a bunch of negative reviews as well.
Ok, so are you now suggesting that thousand of fans who outnumbered/overwhelmed deletions and positive post aren't relevant?
Did ya hear Solo lost 150 million? More rationalization and denial.
Not only are you trying to deflect my explanation for "lot's of people," you are meeting my prediction that "nothing" will change your mind.
ATLEAST 54% of fans who are willing to write a review, negatively reviewed this movie. Remember, negative reviews were deleted.
Oh, I get it, you only want to hear the positive reviews. BUT, you claim you want to have a reasonable/rational discussion.
Am I seeing correctly? 198,000 reviews. Not an adequate sample?
mkstewartesq
Sr Member
I had to save this quote for prosperity.
Annakin and orphan? Raised by his mom, gladly taken by jedi...Yeah, just like Rey. Oh, and the whole slave thing, how did Rey get rid of her chip?
I could keep going but maybe you should WATCH the first six movies first.
You would be fun at parties, for everyone else.
Get well soon.
Similar threads
