Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

I am completely behind having Luke be a shadow of the man he was. What I have a problem with is the reason for it.

For his character to even consider murdering his nephew shows a fundamental disconnect between what happened in ROTJ and what Rian Johnson wrote. People keep saying fanboys are whining because the films didn't turn out the way they expected. Of course fans are upset about it!

It's not because their expectations are too high.

It's not because they are so doped up on nostalgia that they can't take the characters at face value.

It's because when you have a series of films that establishes certain things, you expect that there will be some meaningful resolution to the conflicts in the story. What you don't expect or even want is to have every single element dismissed and disregarded because the film maker wanted to do something radically different to the point where it contradicted most of what came before.

I'm not saying they shouldn't take chances with new stories and characters. I'm saying if you introduce new characters then DEVELOP them! Challenge them in NEW ways! This movie didn't move the narrative forward in any meaningful way and it sullied the legacy and sacrifices of the classic characters in a way that insults their integrity given what we already knew about them. It is possible to add depth and nuance to existing characters without having to change them completely.

Luke's treatment in this movie makes me think of the complaints about Han after TFA came out. I don't think the character acted implausibly this time. I think he acted plausibly but not how we wanted him to.

Some people seem to be forgetting that Luke DIDN'T try to kill Ben/Kylo. He had a moment of fleeting weakness/fear and lit up his saber when he thought nobody was watching. Then the wrong person saw it at the wrong time.


I agree with some of the complaints that Luke throwing away the graflex at the beginning was a real foul-up on the filmmakers' part. It's a plausible thing for Luke to have done but it's too far from what the audience wanted to see after TFA ended on such a dramatic note. I see future fan-edits of the movie getting rid of that.

batguy said:

Luke's treatment in this movie makes me think of the complaints about Han after TFA came out. I don't think the character acted implausibly this time. I think he acted plausibly but not how we wanted him to.

Some people seem to be forgetting that Luke DIDN'T try to kill Ben/Kylo. He had a moment of fleeting weakness/fear and lit up his saber when he thought nobody was watching. Then the wrong person saw it at the wrong time.



I agree with some of the complaints that Luke throwing away the graflex at the beginning was a real foul-up on the filmmakers' part. It's a plausible thing for Luke to have done but it's too far from what the audience wanted to see after TFA ended on such a dramatic note. I see future fan-edits of the movie getting rid of that.

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Luke should have just limply dropped the sabre to the ground - not a Laurel and Hardy toss in the air.

Or better yet, Luke could have told Rey to get the saber away from him and refuse to take it.

Luke was willing to die in Return of the Jedi to save his father from the Dark Side even after all the horrible things Vader had done. Then to have Luke even think of murdering Ben in his sleep seems contradictory. Maybe he didn't act on it, but the fact that he thought that it might be even be an option makes him seem less noble. Especially when he had his weapon drawn.

It also implies something we never see in TLJ. We never learn the circumstances of Ben's fall which if they explored that could have easily made more sense for Luke to act the way he did. Did Ben do something that Luke saw as unforgivable and that it would be better to off him? We don't know. As it stands without information like that to put the situation into context we are left to wonder why Luke could even consider such a thing when everything we knew about him before indicated something like that would be unthinkable.

The reasoning behind my argument isn't speculation based on what I thought should happen in this instance, but based on what happened in previous films. If there was a change in Luke's character between films we need more to go on than just that he sensed darkness in Ben. That's just lazy writing.

laszlo said:

Luke should have just limply dropped the sabre to the ground - not a Laurel and Hardy toss in the air.

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The first thing he should have done was ask "Where did you get that from?"

seelsa73 said:

I love how the people who love this movie so much have to find a reason why audience scores are so low; because it couldn't possibly be that a lot of people just didn't care for this movie.

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/movieweb.com/amp/rotten-tomatoes-last-jedi-audience-score-fake-news/

The more I think about it, the more I liked it.

The film is still deeply imperfect, but I'm giving credit for the ambition. Before Star Wars became a cultural phenomenon, it was this weird mashup movie where Lucas drew from Westerns, Kurosawa films, WWII footage (and, you know, Triumph of the Will), and Buck Rogers and threw that into the universe he created. Where JJ wanted to duplicate the narrative structure of ANH, Johnson duplicated the process of Lucas, adding his own twists. Luke and Ben's flashback, each subtly different, seems to be a nod to Rashomon. Casablanca seems to be a not uncommon reference point for many reviewers with Canto Bight. So I do think that this film was crafted with a deep appreciation of SW and is very much in the spirit of ANH.

The opening battle was a pretty good dogfight sequence. I actually don't find the capital ship chase that problematic. The Resistance is on the run, and the galaxy still must be in some disarray following the destruction of Hosnian Prime. They didn't foresee having to scramble away from their base, so sure, the ship is low on fuel, why not.

The throne room scene was just fantastic. Certainly referential to ROTJ, but also shot very differently. In the whole arc of the film, the use of color here is really nice. Between the space shots and darker interiors, the vibrant reds highlight the narrative tension and importance of the scene. The tension between Kylo and Rey is great. I don't get the criticisms of Daisy. I think she's given great performances in both films. Again in this sequence we get more influence from samurai movies.

The pacing is still uneven. I personally would have gone for like 25% less jokes (but let's also not pretend like jokes like "you came in that thing?" aren't all over ANH). As far as Luke goes...I'm on board. To the detractors, please stop quoting Hamill from like a year ago. Here's a more recent interview with Mark and Rian if you want to read the tea leaves.

I too would recommend the Slashfilm piece that's been linked a few times. Hat tip to Jonah/Inquisitor Peregrinus for that one. We should all step back and realize that making a SW movie to please everyone is impossible. TFA got heat for being too much or a carbon copy of ANH. Edwards supposedly drew too far out of the Disney lines and had to be buoyed by reshoots and edits. So Johnson now puts out a film which - whether they liked it or not - folks recognize has his directorial point of view, and the reaction is pretty "meh."

I think I have figured out another subtle problem.

STAR WARS Episode8 is part of... drumroll... A SERIES! And what makes a series interesting for an audience? Yes, reliability. Not only in terms of plots but of course characters. Long standing series such as soap operas manage to give people continuity and stability even with an ever changing cast.

So, maybe I am just too stressed out by all of those changes at once. Maybe I was too comfortable with what I had.
JJ still seemed to be willing to fulfill those "series" promises. RJ just nixed everything. We have had guest directors come aboard a series in the past and they delivered outstanding episodes to already great series, I am thinking Tarantino. They still created something different within the boundaries of the series. Something that pleased the majority of fans and not divide the fanbase.

jlee562 said:

The pacing is still uneven. I personally would have gone for like 25% less jokes (but let's also not pretend like jokes like "you came in that thing?" aren't all over ANH). As far as Luke goes...I'm on board. To the detractors, please stop quoting Hamill from like a year ago. Here's a more recent interview with Mark and Rian if you want to read the tea leaves.

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Thanks for the Rolling Stone link, that is a pretty good interview. But it doesn't really invalidate Hamill's initial gut reaction to the handling of Luke's character, whether he had it a year ago or yesterday.

Based on everything the audience knows about this guy from the OT movies, if Luke thought he was responsible for pushing Kylo further to the dark side, he would have done everything in his power to fix his mistake. The one thing he would NOT do, is hide out on an island and sulk. That's a pretty major misunderstanding of the character's principles.

Even in a fantasy movie, if you want your audience to be invested in the characters, you need to honor their integrity. I like some of Rian Johnson's work but sometimes good filmmakers with good intentions still get some things wrong, that's all.

robn1 said:

Star Wars Fans Petition to Have The Last Jedi Removed from Canon

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Im all for negative and positive reviews and opinions. People have the right to like or dislike something and not be forced by others to share the same views.

I have problems with some things in this movie but as a whole I enjoyed it very much. Especially seeing it with my 10 year old son and seeing his joy,even at some things I found a bit off.

That said, these idiots with this petition need to ****ing grow up, move out of thier parents basements,get a girlfriend and start socialising with the world. It's ****ing as sad as the whole "George Lucas raped my childhood" bull****. Life is not that bad people. Sheesh.

Oh oh and I also recommend they have kids or at least go to the movies with someone else's kids and see the enjoyment on the kids faces and realise what this is really all about.


Ben

Just re-watched Rogue One,....the attention to detail to keep things accurate to ANH.....it is like a da Vinci compared to TLJ's mess,...I need a Star Wars fix to stop me losing my love

J

Apollo said:

That aint shock!

I told him to go easy on the Nachos Grande that it was too early in the night for that crap, but did he listen...

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I bet that's the last time they hold a premiere at an Alamo Draft House!

I saw it with a 12 yr old who watched 90% of it with their head resting on a hand like they were bored. They said it was a let down when it was over. An older kid in our group liked it a lot. The opinions are all over the place on this one. I’m glad it is entertaining for so many. And I’m glad we havent heard a peep about midi chlorians in this or any other Disney Star Wars movie. Silver linings, folks.

tcsmit29 said:

I think that Lucasfilm has accomplished exactly what they wanted. In the trailer, two quotes that were heard "this isn't going to go the way you think" and "kill the past" seem to portray Lucasfilms intention with this film.

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This follows a tradition from the OT. The magic word in ANH was "I have a funny feeling about this." Shooting the movie was so bugged that I can fully imagine that the crew was thinking that all the time. The magic word in TESB was "Impossible." Exactly what the audience thought when Vader revealed his identity as Luke's father. And ILM proved that they were capable of creating the impossible.

Worth noting in our own poll above love/like at 184, hate/disappointed 103. So 46% more positive then negative. It’s just math. And apparently angry people are simply louder in this thread albeit a minority.

dascoyne said:

Was anyone else irritated that Luke referred to a lightsaber as a "laser sword"?
Was this just Rian trying to provoke and unbalance the fandom?

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No, they’ve been referred to as laser swords in preproduction work.

[3rd Draft, but there are more references out there.)
“With an astounding agility, Old Ben’s laser-sword sparks to life and in a flash an arm lies on the floor. “

I have a feeling Hamill wrote or influenced his scenes heavily; and the laser-sword reference was probably his idea.

Bryancd said:

Worth noting in our own poll above love/like at 184, hate/disappointed 103. So 46% more positive then negative. It’s just math. And apparently angry people are simply louder in this thread albeit a minority.

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Do you see that as a good thing Bryan?.....there should be no negative

There is something seriously wrong with this film

I'm not angry,...just very dissapointed

J

Jaitea said:

Do you see that as a good thing Bryan?.....there should be no negative

There is something seriously wrong with this film

I'm not angry,...just very dissapointed

J

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That’s why I referenced math. It’s neither good or bad, it just is. Personally does it bother me 103 people are negative? No more so then the same negativity that was levied at TFA and Rogue One. Although we didn’t do a poll go back and read those threads, they were similar and yet both those films were voted RPF favorites for the year. I will tell you what does make me sad is how this forum has been forever altered by the Reddit crowd as a result of that Spoiler post. So much of the negativity I’m wading through in this thread is coming from new members I don’t know and I think the tone of this community will never be the same.

Bryancd said:

Worth noting in our own poll above love/like at 184, hate/disappointed 103. So 46% more positive then negative. It’s just math. And apparently angry people are simply louder in this thread albeit a minority.

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Time to get your field of view off opening box office and this poll....the internet is tearing this mess a whole new one and deservedly so. And not just the ANGRY LOUD people.