Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
was blatantly sided towards a single gender and nearly excluded all other audience with no remorse.

Yeah... Ok.

I fully appreciate you having feelings of dislike for the movie. And as you'd stated, nothing in it affects real life. So why contrive something like this? It's slanted in favour of one gender? really? And you don;'t think your'e maybe making that assumption on your own just a bit?

I think you'd have been better off to leave that one out of your analysis. This movie was not slanted in favour of one gender or the other. if you truly believe that it was, offer some examples for why you think so, and be prepared for others to refute them.
 
Does anyone give any credit that hammill didn't know that they were going to kill off Luke?

I saw shot of him after he got out of the premier and he looked like he saw a ghost. And that he was about murder someone.

It was a heartbreaking expression

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
Kylo had been severely wounded when he and Rey faced each other in TFA. Rey didn't beat him because she was inherently better, she won because she was facing an emotionally compromised person who had been shot with, arguably, one of those most powerful hand blasters in Star Wars lore.

absolutely.

Honestly one of the dynamics I love in this new trilogy is that the two main opposing forces seem to rise and match each other... it's that continual clash to edge out the other--which The Force doesn't seem to want to let happen--which is interesting to me. Why is the Force raising both of them up equally? Could it be that The Force is tired of having two diametrically opposed sides, and that it is trying to teach these two to find common ground? i don't know... but I want to.
 
“Swinging on some vines”. Is that really all you took from the entirety of Yoda appearance in ESB? Others in the real world crate an entire religion around it and you got...swinging on vines.

also...Luke, after being instructed, at least a for a few hours in person and unknown amount from force ghost, manages, with difficulty, to move an object a few inches. Once. With difficulty and great concentration. An impressive feat from the son of the chosen one.

Mary, after being told the force exists once by a charismatic stranger, can move multiple objects at the same time without apparent effort.

exactly the same, but only if you don’t know the definition of the words, exactly, same, or the.


Perhaps it's not the person who moves (or doesn't move) the rock, but The Force, which flows through them. If they are a good vessel, The Force does it's work. If they are not, it is hampered.

In the end, LOTS of people in this franchise have let The Force use them to accomplish big things. Why is Rey not allowed to be a good vessel without being called a derogatory name?
 
I don't see it that way. The film doesn't exactly end on a cliffhanger, but not everything is resolved. The First Order is in a far superior position to the Empire at the end of ESB, because the Resistance has been almost completely destroyed. There are, what, 100 people left in the Resistance? Fewer? They have, as far as we know, one ship: the Falcon. Literally. All the fighters? Destroyed in the hangar bay of the Raddus. All their capital ships? Gone. Destroyed by the First Order. All their bombers? Lost by Poe's stupid mission. All the materiel, all the weapons, everything has basically been left behind, except what could be loaded onto the Falcon. Maybe there are some hidden caches of equipment scattered around the galaxy, and maybe those outer rim allies will start to help, but the Resistance/New Rebellion is basically down to a handful of people.

The scale is different but it's exactly the same setup as the beginning of the movie: big menacing First Order with dark force warrior at the helm against small ill-equipped Resistance. It's not that much of a secret how that will play out, Luke pretty much spelled it all out in the finale. I'll actually bookmark this page coz I'm pretty sure the title crawl for Ep9 will be something like "Due to Luke Skywalker's heroic sacrifice hundreds of worlds reinvigorated with hope and spirit join the Resistance in their fight against the First Order". That's it, sorted. Might even be so many worlds that First Order needs to build a planet-destroying weapon to intimidate them...? :p
And anyway it's called Star Wars, therefore however way it goes it will play out by Resistance lasering First Order in battles. I'm not against spacebattles or ground battles, after all it IS called Star Wars, but the setup on the chessboard could have changed a bit. I will sound like a broken record but I SOOOOOO wanted the Rey/Ren scene to end differently. Just imagine if them two teamed up. Could have been a great moment, it could have made the final push for Luke to join the fight as he wouldn't want her to fall to darkness too, Poe and Finn would actually have something to do as they would have been the main protagonists in Ep9.
Or a role-reversal, Kylo turns light by killing Snoke and saving Rey, but by the time they slashed down the guards Rey got a taste of anger and power, beats Ren again and takes over the First Order. Straight up a lot of conflicts to sort in Ep9, could Rey be turned back, where will Kylo find his new place as he'd be unwelcome on both sides, etc.
Nope, we're back at big bad First Order vs small Resistance.

On top of that, there's the much more interesting question of where the story goes from here in terms of the fate of the Jedi. What will Rey's Jedi order look like? What will it mean to be a Jedi the way Rey does it?
Considering that she is still very much a student she probably won't be at the point where she would shape anything else but herself regarding the Force.


Will Kylo Ren/Ben be redeemed? Will Rey destroy him?

Another deja vu here...that could have been easily avoided just by making a more interesting decision.

Will he destroy Rey?
I'm not exactly on the edge of my seat regarding this...

Will Finn let go of his hate and fight for love instead? Does he have a future with Rose?

It's probably me, but I really didn't understand that lesson. Finn almost had a great arc where he was finally willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good instead of looking at his own benefit. As far as I'm concerned his arc is complete, even if he didn't end up sacrificing himself. Unless Rose meant that it wouldn't have been worth sacrificing himself and he should have just turned back with everyone else and let the laserdrill go through the door and let the Resistance killed (mind you, Luke was nowhere and the back-door was nowhere at this point either).

And what of the children on the casino planet?

Not important. Main thing is that they set the llamas free.

What of Luke's ominous message of "See ya 'round, kid..."?
That seemed really weird. Maybe he didn't plan on dying 20 seconds after it...? I dunno. Pretty sure forceghost Luke will be a thing.

More importantly, I think the big question of "Where does Star Wars go from here?" needs to be answered. Will we abandon the notions of bloodlines and destiny, and take a new view of how the Force and these stories function? Will we continue to iterate the same kind of stories as the original trilogy, with yet more "evil empires" and stand-ins for the Sith/Jedi? How will all of that play out?
See above. I was completely fine by Rey being Rey and Snoke being just Snoke. Then the whole thing was sent back to square one.

I don't think it matters, honestly. In fact, I think that's one of the underlying messages of the film: we need to be bold enough to move on from the past. Not to disregard it entirely, but also not to allow it to hold us back.
Same as before, a movie that promotes moving away from the past restores status quo.
 
Does anyone give any credit that hammill didn't know that they were going to kill off Luke?

I saw shot of him after he got out of the premier and he looked like he saw a ghost. And that he was about murder someone.

It was a heartbreaking expression

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
I saw that interview with him too. I don't know. Wouldn't be surprised, but it's just a theory at this point. The entire Luke dying thing looked really tacked on even from a story point of view. Ren is furious that Luke tricked him, he's not there, out of his reach to kill, "see you around, kid", then he dies anyway a minute later. I didn't get the point, maybe it's me but it did look like an afterthought.
 
I completely disagree with anyone who starts in on the SJW ranting. When you start name calling and complaining about diversity or Kathleen Kennedy's agenda, I step aside

However, the narrative this guy went through was exactly what went through my head the entire time. As I've said, it isn't the story I had a problem with, it was the script and every single plot point.

Everything

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

DANG!!!

The LAST thing I ever want to do is come across as a SLW!
Please allow me to clarify...

I was responding to the fact that the video we considered a review. I'm a fan of Cinema Sins, Everything Wrong With, Hire It Should Have Ended, pretty much any of those guys that nitpick in a humorous way, but I'd never refer to any of those as reviews. The creators have all said they do those because of a love for the movies.

I thought the video brought up some funny things, even though they didn't hinder my enjoyment of the film, but simply to refer to her as Shrek,I thought was more personal based on the actress, as opposed to any decisions made by the filmmakers. It just hit me wrong.

For example, if near the end, he'd made a comment on her crashing into Finn, because she was either female or Asian, then we're talking comedy, because it was elated to a plot point in the story.
 
DANG!!!

The LAST thing I ever want to do is come across as a SLW!
Please allow me to clarify...

I was responding to the fact that the video we considered a review. I'm a fan of Cinema Sins, Everything Wrong With, Hire It Should Have Ended, pretty much any of those guys that nitpick in a humorous way, but I'd never refer to any of those as reviews. The creators have all said they do those because of a love for the movies.

I thought the video brought up some funny things, even though they didn't hinder my enjoyment of the film, but simply to refer to her as Shrek,I thought was more personal based on the actress, as opposed to any decisions made by the filmmakers. It just hit me wrong.

For example, if near the end, he'd made a comment on her crashing into Finn, because she was either female or Asian, then we're talking comedy, because it was elated to a plot point in the story.

Have you ever watched Shrek and the sequels? I believe the point of those movies were that Princess Fiona was more beautiful as her true self rather then being a plain looking white woman.

Who ever said Shrek or Fiona was ugly. It all depends on your “certain point of view.” — yes, I stole that from Obi Wan. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Have you ever watched Shrek and the sequels? I believe the point of those movies were that Princess Fiona was more beautiful as her true self rather then being a plain looking white woman.

Who ever said Shrek or Fiona was ugly. It all depends on your “certain point of view.” — yes, I stole that from Obi Wan. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fair enough.
 
Solo4114;4377297 I think people are hung up on the notion that Rey's power [U said:
must[/U] come from somewhere. It does. The film even explains it. The Force manifested in her in a way that was much stronger than anyone else. Rey doesn't understand it, and has shaky control over it (although she improves her control throughout the film). She doesn't know why she's this powerful or why this thing awakened in her. Luke tries to explain to her that the Force basically "chose" her, but Rey still wants more info. She asks who her parents are, in the sense of "do they explain why I am this way?" when she goes to the pit/cave thing. The pit responds by showing her...herself. She is who she is because the Force chose her, and for no other reason. She's not a secret Kenobi, she's not a Skywalker, she's not anyone. She's a nobody, born from nobodies. But she's a nobody who was chosen by the Force, who heeded the call when it came time, who helps those who need help because it's her instinct. Arguably, that's why the Force chose her. She's a being of good, in spite of the upbringing she had.

Seriously, people need to stop and think about that. Rey has every reason to be filled with hatred and anger. Her parents abandoned her, indeed, sold her to Unkar Plutt for drinking money. Nobody (as far as we know) has helped or protected her throughout her life, except Rey herself. It's been her against the galaxy since she was six years old (or so)...and yet when BB-8 comes along looking for help, what does she do? Does she turn him away? Does she say "Life's hard, droid. You're on your own"? No. She moves to protect BB-8 and shelter him. She could have sold him to Unkar Plutt, too, but she doesn't. At many points in the story, she could've said "Screw this. I'm looking out for me." And each time, she doesn't. She chooses to help others. Arguably, that is why the Force chose her, but it's never overtly explained.

I think one of the main messages of the film is that the Force could be with anyone. It's not about your bloodline or destiny or prophecies. All of that stuff just leads to dead-end hero worship, where people turn to someone else to solve their problems, and instead, this movie is saying "Take heart! You can do it yourself! You have that in you!" That, to me, is ultimately the message in movie as a whole. The cave apparently represent's Rey's greatest fear: that she has only herself to rely on. But she conquers that fear and learns it isn't entirely true, either. She learns, in my opinion, that she can rely on herself -- that she's always been able to, really -- but that she also has a family in the Resistance. They're what she'll fight for.


So, anyway, no, Rey is not a "Mary Sue" in my opinion, merely because she doesn't come from a famous bloodline (as far as we know). I mean, Kylo Ren could've been lying to her or masking the truth, or just telling her what he thinks she needs to hear. But even if it turns out that she's a Kenobi or something, I think the ultimate message is that that's not why she's powerful. She's powerful because of her choices and who she is as a person unto herself, not her bloodline or her destiny. I love that message in the film, and I hope it's one that JJ doesn't step on in the next one. To me, it's such a powerful, important message, especially at this point in history.

^^^Every.
Single.
Word.
Of.
THIS!!!
 
I will sound like a broken record but I SOOOOOO wanted the Rey/Ren scene to end differently. Just imagine if them two teamed up. Could have been a great moment,

While I will freely admit that i cheered out loud when they teamed up to fight off the Praetorians, ultimately I'm glad they didn't stay besties. That wouldn't have fit with EITHER of their established characters. Kylo used her abilities to usurp Snoke. THAT is totally inline with his character. And Rey wanted with all of her heart to see Ben redeemed.. so she begged till the last fro that, but when it was clear he wasn't going to turn and join her she moved to protect herself and the conflict continues... as it should until a proper resolution is reached. but the two of them suddenly dropping their principles and becomoing an Army of Two would have been way out of character for both of them.
 
The scale is different but it's exactly the same setup as the beginning of the movie: big menacing First Order with dark force warrior at the helm against small ill-equipped Resistance. It's not that much of a secret how that will play out, Luke pretty much spelled it all out in the finale. I'll actually bookmark this page coz I'm pretty sure the title crawl for Ep9 will be something like "Due to Luke Skywalker's heroic sacrifice hundreds of worlds reinvigorated with hope and spirit join the Resistance in their fight against the First Order". That's it, sorted. Might even be so many worlds that First Order needs to build a planet-destroying weapon to intimidate them...? :p
And anyway it's called Star Wars, therefore however way it goes it will play out by Resistance lasering First Order in battles. I'm not against spacebattles or ground battles, after all it IS called Star Wars, but the setup on the chessboard could have changed a bit. I will sound like a broken record but I SOOOOOO wanted the Rey/Ren scene to end differently. Just imagine if them two teamed up. Could have been a great moment, it could have made the final push for Luke to join the fight as he wouldn't want her to fall to darkness too, Poe and Finn would actually have something to do as they would have been the main protagonists in Ep9.
Or a role-reversal, Kylo turns light by killing Snoke and saving Rey, but by the time they slashed down the guards Rey got a taste of anger and power, beats Ren again and takes over the First Order. Straight up a lot of conflicts to sort in Ep9, could Rey be turned back, where will Kylo find his new place as he'd be unwelcome on both sides, etc.
Nope, we're back at big bad First Order vs small Resistance.

To be fair...it could still go many of those ways. They might break the old cycle. Rey might not destroy Ben, and might bring him back to the light side, at which point he DOESN'T die the way Vader did, and instead works to redeem his past deeds. I think it's really an open question as to how that'll play out, actually, and although it seems "obvious" that Rey will duel him and either redeem him at the last second when he's dying, or destroy him or something, this film suggested to me that there's no reason they have to do that. That's the obvious thing, but that's not necessarily what will happen. This film eschewed the obvious.


Considering that she is still very much a student she probably won't be at the point where she would shape anything else but herself regarding the Force.

Well, yeah, but I mean she'll be the new representation of the Jedi. What will that look like? I don't know.


It's probably me, but I really didn't understand that lesson. Finn almost had a great arc where he was finally willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good instead of looking at his own benefit. As far as I'm concerned his arc is complete, even if he didn't end up sacrificing himself. Unless Rose meant that it wouldn't have been worth sacrificing himself and he should have just turned back with everyone else and let the laserdrill go through the door and let the Resistance killed (mind you, Luke was nowhere and the back-door was nowhere at this point either).

This is one of the lessons of the film that I think a lot of people miss, because it so subverts what we've come to expect from heroic fiction. Heroes make grand sacrifices, they take crazy risks, they give their lives to save the universe, etc., etc., etc. This film takes a ton of that heroic fiction and says "Yeah, that's actually kinda dumb and a waste."

Let's think about it for a second. Suppose that Finn had managed to destroy the big door buster by sacrificing himself. What then? Most likely, the FO just uses some other device to bust open the door. Or it takes them a little longer, but they blast their way through. Basically, Finn's sacrifice would've looked really cool and made a big explosion and ultimately would have not made much of a difference.

This is the same lesson that Poe fails to learn (until the very end) with respect to taking out the dreadnought at the start of the film. We've been conditioned by these films and so many others like them to look at moments like that as moments of valiant, heroic sacrifice. All of the imagery and musical cues and mythology surrounding this sort of moment tells us that, ah, sure, they went down fighting, but they took out the bad guys and saved the fleet!

Except all that does is consider the moment itself. It doesn't stop to consider the longer game.

Yes, Poe took out a dreadnought....but so what?

The FO will just build another. He's barely bloodied the FO's nose, and in the process, it's cost the Resistance ALL of its heavy bombers. And all when the main mission was to provide screening cover so the Resistance ships could escape. The mission was NOT to destroy First Order ships. Poe disregarded that, heroically, and heroically cost the Resistance desperately needed material and personnel.

Finn's moment is similar. Finn is all prepared to sacrifice himself to stop the enemy, but his sacrifice would ultimately be meaningless. It would accomplish nothing other than looking cool and being kinda poetic...for a moment.

Then the moment would pass, and the Resistance would be down another fighter -- and an inspirational one at that, which the Resistance desperately needs. Finn can do more good for the Resistance and the galaxy as a whole by staying alive than he can by sacrificing himself in an ultimately futile gesture.

Rose's message -- an important one -- is similar to Holdo's. You have to think of the bigger picture, and you have to remember that you're fighting for something beyond yourself. In that moment, Finn is fighting to destroy the First Order, because he hates them. He's driven by the wrong impulses, and it's ultimately a self-centered impulse. It's purely about gratifying his own desires: hurt the First Order. By contrast, fighting for something that you love means that (ideally) you want to stay alive to be with what you love, and hopefully leads you to make wiser decisions with respect to when and how you sacrifice yourself, if at all.

Basically, if you fight to protect what you love, your decisions are coming from the right place. Will crashing my speeder into the big gun really protect what I love? Or will it leave them unprotected when I'm gone? Am I doing this really to protect those people, or just to hurt my enemies?

Not important. Main thing is that they set the llamas free.

It is important. It is, in my opinion, one of the most important messages of the film.

ANYONE can be a hero. The Force belongs to everyone. It's not about your bloodline or your destiny or anything like that. These kids are nobodies, but one day maybe they'll be somebodies, inspired by other nobodies who stepped up to do the same.

That seemed really weird. Maybe he didn't plan on dying 20 seconds after it...? I dunno. Pretty sure forceghost Luke will be a thing.

I think he knew exactly what would happen, and that he'd become one with the Force. The real question there is whether that means he'll haunt Ben, or whether Ben will feel Luke's influence in other ways, and how that line will play out exactly. Luke being a blue-glowie isn't much of a question. How and when Luke does so is the real question.
 
I don't see it that way. The film doesn't exactly end on a cliffhanger, but not everything is resolved. The First Order is in a far superior position to the Empire at the end of ESB, because the Resistance has been almost completely destroyed. There are, what, 100 people left in the Resistance? Fewer? They have, as far as we know, one ship: the Falcon. Literally. All the fighters? Destroyed in the hangar bay of the Raddus. All their capital ships? Gone. Destroyed by the First Order. All their bombers? Lost by Poe's stupid mission. All the materiel, all the weapons, everything has basically been left behind, except what could be loaded onto the Falcon. Maybe there are some hidden caches of equipment scattered around the galaxy, and maybe those outer rim allies will start to help, but the Resistance/New Rebellion is basically down to a handful of people.

On top of that, there's the much more interesting question of where the story goes from here in terms of the fate of the Jedi. What will Rey's Jedi order look like? What will it mean to be a Jedi the way Rey does it? Will the cycle that has been repeated in the previous two trilogies and into this third one be ended? Will Kylo Ren/Ben be redeemed? Will Rey destroy him? Will he destroy Rey? How will the FO be stopped? Will Poe be able to lead the Resistance now that he has learned from the errors of his past? Will Finn let go of his hate and fight for love instead? Does he have a future with Rose? And what of the children on the casino planet? What of Luke's ominous message of "See ya 'round, kid..."? Will Luke impart a final lesson to Rey? (There was a scene shot that was cut, which leaves that a possibility still.)

More importantly, I think the big question of "Where does Star Wars go from here?" needs to be answered. Will we abandon the notions of bloodlines and destiny, and take a new view of how the Force and these stories function? Will we continue to iterate the same kind of stories as the original trilogy, with yet more "evil empires" and stand-ins for the Sith/Jedi? How will all of that play out?



I don't think it matters, honestly. In fact, I think that's one of the underlying messages of the film: we need to be bold enough to move on from the past. Not to disregard it entirely, but also not to allow it to hold us back.

Listen to Yoda's message: "We are what they grow beyond." I think this is one of the most important messages in the film. Possibly in the entire franchise.



I think she absolutely did. Others have discussed it here to some extent, but I think Rey was searching for information, questioning her own identity, questioning all sorts of things and looking outside of herself for someone to give her a solution. What she takes away from Luke on Ach To is very simple: stop looking to everyone else to solve your problem, and fix it yourself. Even the "dark side cave" shows this to her. Rey asks who her parents are. What she's really asking is "Why am I this way? Who is responsible for me?" The cave shows an unending line of...herself. Rey is responsible for herself. Rey is the reason she is this way. Rey holds the key to her own destiny. Not some master, not her parents, not a wise sage, not her adversary nor his master, not some mysterious cave.

Both Yoda and Leia say a similar message, in that Rey and the Resistance have everything they need. Rey will chart her own course now, as opposed to looking to other people to tell her where the path is, and how to walk it.







So, the above mostly covers my own attitudes regarding the "Mary Sue" argument.

First, the classical "Mary Sue" is actually a form of author wish fulfillment, where the author places themselves in the "Mary Sue" role, and is basically perfect. The character has all the answers, is good at everything, never fails, saves the day, is beloved and respected by all she meets, and seems to be held in much higher regard or promoted beyond what would normally be expected. The character is usually female, too, which raises some questions about inherent sexism in the concept, although there's the male "Gary Stu" version as well so it's not as if it's only women. Wesley Crusher, for example, is seen by many as a "Gary Stu" for Gene Roddenberry, in that he is this boy genius who realistically has no business being promoted to acting ensign, who likewise has no business being taken seriously by the ship's command staff, but somehow is always given a fair hearing and very often manages to save the day. Obviously that changed over the course of the show, and Wesley became more nuanced, and failed at times, too. But he's an example of a "Gary Stu"/"Mary Sue."

Rey...is not.

I think people are hung up on the notion that Rey's power must come from somewhere. It does. The film even explains it. The Force manifested in her in a way that was much stronger than anyone else. Rey doesn't understand it, and has shaky control over it (although she improves her control throughout the film). She doesn't know why she's this powerful or why this thing awakened in her. Luke tries to explain to her that the Force basically "chose" her, but Rey still wants more info. She asks who her parents are, in the sense of "do they explain why I am this way?" when she goes to the pit/cave thing. The pit responds by showing her...herself. She is who she is because the Force chose her, and for no other reason. She's not a secret Kenobi, she's not a Skywalker, she's not anyone. She's a nobody, born from nobodies. But she's a nobody who was chosen by the Force, who heeded the call when it came time, who helps those who need help because it's her instinct. Arguably, that's why the Force chose her. She's a being of good, in spite of the upbringing she had.

Seriously, people need to stop and think about that. Rey has every reason to be filled with hatred and anger. Her parents abandoned her, indeed, sold her to Unkar Plutt for drinking money. Nobody (as far as we know) has helped or protected her throughout her life, except Rey herself. It's been her against the galaxy since she was six years old (or so)...and yet when BB-8 comes along looking for help, what does she do? Does she turn him away? Does she say "Life's hard, droid. You're on your own"? No. She moves to protect BB-8 and shelter him. She could have sold him to Unkar Plutt, too, but she doesn't. At many points in the story, she could've said "Screw this. I'm looking out for me." And each time, she doesn't. She chooses to help others. Arguably, that is why the Force chose her, but it's never overtly explained.

I think one of the main messages of the film is that the Force could be with anyone. It's not about your bloodline or destiny or prophecies. All of that stuff just leads to dead-end hero worship, where people turn to someone else to solve their problems, and instead, this movie is saying "Take heart! You can do it yourself! You have that in you!" That, to me, is ultimately the message in movie as a whole. The cave apparently represent's Rey's greatest fear: that she has only herself to rely on. But she conquers that fear and learns it isn't entirely true, either. She learns, in my opinion, that she can rely on herself -- that she's always been able to, really -- but that she also has a family in the Resistance. They're what she'll fight for.


So, anyway, no, Rey is not a "Mary Sue" in my opinion, merely because she doesn't come from a famous bloodline (as far as we know). I mean, Kylo Ren could've been lying to her or masking the truth, or just telling her what he thinks she needs to hear. But even if it turns out that she's a Kenobi or something, I think the ultimate message is that that's not why she's powerful. She's powerful because of her choices and who she is as a person unto herself, not her bloodline or her destiny. I love that message in the film, and I hope it's one that JJ doesn't step on in the next one. To me, it's such a powerful, important message, especially at this point in history.

Excellent analysis of Rey here and why the force chose her.In fact you have changed my mind about her. I just wish the movie could have explained it as well as you had.
 
Excellent analysis of Rey here and why the force chose her.In fact you have changed my mind about her. I just wish the movie could have explained it as well as you had.

Thanks! I think the movie implies it, but it's difficult to actually convey that in exposition. Or at least, you could do it, but it would end up landing with kind of a thud. Plus, I'm not sure it's possible. Luke doesn't really know Rey's history. He's not connected to her through the Force (the way Ben is), and he's not really connected to the Force at all at that point. So, unlike Ben, he doesn't have the ability to "read" Rey and learn her past or see her visions or whathaveyou. So, he's not really in a position to say "You were chosen because..." and go through what we, the audience, already know. He could've said "You were chosen because...uh....you're a good person...or something," but that would just elicit eyerolls. The important thing is that he conveys that Rey was chosen, that the Force awakened in her, and that she's powerful because of that. In a way, the point is sort of that there's no explanation -- or at least no explanation like what we're expecting (e.g., "You're a Kenobi!" "I am your father!" "Your parents were students of mine named Sabine and Ezra!" "Snoke's yer daddy!" "There's a prophecy in the Jedi books about a girl from a sunburnt planet who will rise from the ashes of a fallen Empire to blah blah blah...").

In a way, none of that stuff matters anyway. That's one of the messages of the film, too, I think.

Rey, up until this point, has been spending her time asking "Why" which is the wrong question. The question she needs to be asking is "What do I do with this power?" But she already knows the answer to that, and it is (again, just in my opinion) why the power vested in her in the first place: she's going to use her power to protect people.
 
A small line that I think a lot of people are missing about Rey's parents and what kylo tells her is that he "saw them". He saw them in his vision that Snoke gave him, like the visions Snoke gave Rey. They each recieved visions of the other helping each other overthrow Snoke. So what kylo claims to "know" is what Snoke showed him, so who knows.

I still like the answer though if it is true.
 
While I will freely admit that i cheered out loud when they teamed up to fight off the Praetorians, ultimately I'm glad they didn't stay besties. That wouldn't have fit with EITHER of their established characters. Kylo used her abilities to usurp Snoke. THAT is totally inline with his character. And Rey wanted with all of her heart to see Ben redeemed.. so she begged till the last fro that, but when it was clear he wasn't going to turn and join her she moved to protect herself and the conflict continues... as it should until a proper resolution is reached. but the two of them suddenly dropping their principles and becomoing an Army of Two would have been way out of character for both of them.
No it wouldn't. Ren already wanted to join up with Rey, why is that out of character? And the whole movie was supposedly about Rey looking for her place in this conflict. She tried Luke, got refused, would make sense to me to actually side with someone who says actually cares about her and wants to achieve things with her. They don't need to be besties, Vader and Palps were no besties, they worked together either because they wanted something that they could only achieve through the other or they had a common goal. Again, Ren wanted to team up with Rey anyway and Rey had no clear principles at this point, she was angry with him coz he killed Han who was a replacement father figure for like 2 days. Most of this movie was spent on showing the other point of view, so it would have been very much in line with the movie's supposed message and principle for Rey to realize that it was a bit childish of her to cling on to Solo without knowing him and not knowing any of the background.


To be fair...it could still go many of those ways. They might break the old cycle. Rey might not destroy Ben, and might bring him back to the light side, at which point he DOESN'T die the way Vader did, and instead works to redeem his past deeds. I think it's really an open question as to how that'll play out, actually, and although it seems "obvious" that Rey will duel him and either redeem him at the last second when he's dying, or destroy him or something, this film suggested to me that there's no reason they have to do that. That's the obvious thing, but that's not necessarily what will happen. This film eschewed the obvious.
How did it do that? Other than cutting short everybody's expectations about Rey and Snoke backstory there was nothing that was new or truly unexpected and again the final outcome is back at square one. Just compare to TFA, that story could have gone so many directions. Part of it is deliberately writing it open-ended so I appreciate that it's difficult to fill in other people's blanks, but I really don't think TLJ did anything really fundamentally different and smart.


This is one of the lessons of the film that I think a lot of people miss, because it so subverts what we've come to expect from heroic fiction. Heroes make grand sacrifices, they take crazy risks, they give their lives to save the universe, etc., etc., etc. This film takes a ton of that heroic fiction and says "Yeah, that's actually kinda dumb and a waste."

Let's think about it for a second. Suppose that Finn had managed to destroy the big door buster by sacrificing himself. What then? Most likely, the FO just uses some other device to bust open the door. Or it takes them a little longer, but they blast their way through. Basically, Finn's sacrifice would've looked really cool and made a big explosion and ultimately would have not made much of a difference.
Why not? They established earlier that the base is a real fortress that pretty much only that battering ram laser can counter. Would have bought them much more time to escape than Luke's show. The film again contradicts its own logic, Finn needs to be spared because sacrificing himself would be stupid but Luke did the right thing by sacrificing himself to let others escape? And again, what does it mean not fighting the things we hate but saving the ones we love? Didn't Rose's sister sacrifice herself to destroy the dreadnought on that bomber? Again at this point they did not know that Luke will show up or that the cave had a back-door, all they knew that the battering ram can pierce through the door that they thought to be heavily fortified. Why was it a good idea then from Rose to ram Finn's ship (that might have killed both of them) so that Finn is safe while the Empire just goes through and kills everyone?

This is the same lesson that Poe fails to learn (until the very end) with respect to taking out the dreadnought at the start of the film. We've been conditioned by these films and so many others like them to look at moments like that as moments of valiant, heroic sacrifice. All of the imagery and musical cues and mythology surrounding this sort of moment tells us that, ah, sure, they went down fighting, but they took out the bad guys and saved the fleet!

Except all that does is consider the moment itself. It doesn't stop to consider the longer game.

Yes, Poe took out a dreadnought....but so what?

The FO will just build another. He's barely bloodied the FO's nose, and in the process, it's cost the Resistance ALL of its heavy bombers. And all when the main mission was to provide screening cover so the Resistance ships could escape. The mission was NOT to destroy First Order ships. Poe disregarded that, heroically, and heroically cost the Resistance desperately needed material and personnel.
Again, this just doesn't make sense if you put it to context. All you know there as a pilot that the dreadnought is a (I quote) fleet-destroyer ship. It kinda makes sense to me to destroy a ship that could destroy your fleet in order to let your fleet escape. And how did Poe's actions cost all the bombers? As far as I remember they were there anyway and fighters should have protected them. Then they were decimated by TIEs.
Ultimately Poe learned not to question any superior commanders because that's his big lesson. If Laura Dern told him that we have a plan and it's this instead of "well, Leia told me that hope is important" things might have played out a bit different?

Rose's message -- an important one -- is similar to Holdo's. You have to think of the bigger picture, and you have to remember that you're fighting for something beyond yourself. In that moment, Finn is fighting to destroy the First Order, because he hates them. He's driven by the wrong impulses, and it's ultimately a self-centered impulse. It's purely about gratifying his own desires: hurt the First Order. By contrast, fighting for something that you love means that (ideally) you want to stay alive to be with what you love, and hopefully leads you to make wiser decisions with respect to when and how you sacrifice yourself, if at all.
You mean THAT Holdo's who sacrificed herself to take out just one ship...? See why this just doesn't make any sense? So if Finn rammed the laserdrill with a smile and saying I'm doing this to save my friends that would have been okay...? And Rose saving Finn because she loves him while potentially putting everyone else in that cave at risk (remember, they don't have any knowledge of alternative escape routes or Luke) is not thinking for herself? I don't know man, maybe it's me...

It is important. It is, in my opinion, one of the most important messages of the film.
It was sarcasm on my behalf, sorry if it wasn't clear. For being the most important message of the film it was handled really really lame. Our heroes don't even think about all of those kids and potentially doing something about them, but they conclude that the real victory is thrashing the casinos and setting the llamas free. It's not me who says it's not important, it's really the characters.
 
Yeah... Ok.

I fully appreciate you having feelings of dislike for the movie. And as you'd stated, nothing in it affects real life. So why contrive something like this? It's slanted in favour of one gender? really? And you don;'t think your'e maybe making that assumption on your own just a bit?

I think you'd have been better off to leave that one out of your analysis. This movie was not slanted in favour of one gender or the other. if you truly believe that it was, offer some examples for why you think so, and be prepared for others to refute them.

No, I do not think I'm making an assumption on my own. I think the proof is in the nature of the forced female characters. No, I didn't contrive this, I observed this and brought it to the table as I'm sure others have as well. I do apologize for not giving examples, I wanted to be brief, and I do realize re-reading what I wrote it comes off harsh and like a rant which it pretty much was because I was so disappointed in the film. I will elaborate since you are kindly asking me to.

First off, it's not news that Kathleen Kennedy is trying to make leaps and bounds for equal opportunity for females in the film industry and I'm sure she has had major influence on Rian's Directing and writing in this film as she has in all the Star Wars films since she took charge. She has stated that in regards to the Star Wars saga, she owe's nothing to the predominantly male audience. Though I disagree with such statements I'd rather address and be clear that I have nothing against female leads and trying to market and appeal to women in the Star Wars franchise. I'm all for equality. The problem with The Last Jedi, is that the additional Female presence felt really forced, therefore it felt overwhelmingly obvious, and slanted towards a female gender targeted audience. These added female characters were underdeveloped and there roles in the story so ridiculous and unbelievable it felt like they were just trying so hard to create more female roles for the sake of having female roles it didn't matter how it effected the story. This is why in my analysis the film was obviously skewed towards one side more than the other. In other words they were trying too hard to write these parts in for the sake of appeal instead of letting it happen in a more fluid like fashion that benefits a better story.
 
First off, it's not news that Kathleen Kennedy is trying to make leaps and bounds for equal opportunity for females in the film industry and I'm sure she has had major influence on Rian's Directing and writing in this film as she has in all the Star Wars films since she took charge. She has stated that in regards to the Star Wars saga, she owe's nothing to the predominantly male audience. Though I disagree with such statements I'd rather address and be clear that I have nothing against female leads and trying to market and appeal to women in the Star Wars franchise. I'm all for equality. The problem with The Last Jedi, is that the additional Female presence felt really forced, therefore it felt overwhelmingly obvious, and slanted towards a female gender targeted audience. These added female characters were underdeveloped and there roles in the story so ridiculous and unbelievable it felt like they were just trying so hard to create more female roles for the sake of having female roles it didn't matter how it effected the story. This is why in my analysis the film was obviously skewed towards one side more than the other. In other words they were trying too hard to write these parts in for the sake of appeal instead of letting it happen in a more fluid like fashion that benefits a better story.

Which roles felt "forced"?

What about those roles made them feel "forced"?
 
Which roles felt "forced"?

What about those roles made them feel "forced"?

I hate commenting on male/female post...but

I think throughout the history of Sith/Jedi, both had to have substantial training to obtain many abilities.

And now our first, "Female force user/hero", can do this in less that a week. Maybe females are born stronger in the force, right off the bat?

I'll just go with that...^^

I dont quite agree but..I can see how some would think... "oh come on man... just cause she is a girl, she has the abilities of a seasoned Jedi in a matter of days?.. Not a Master, by far.. but certainly more advanced than a padawan....from what history has shown us"
 
This thread is more than 3 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. This thread hasn't been active in some time. A new post in this thread might not contribute constructively to this discussion after so long.
If you wish to reply despite these issues, check the box below before replying.
Be aware that malicious compliance may result in more severe penalties.
Back
Top