Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

jusdrewit said:

Star Wars has it's roots in myths, the heroes journey.

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I just saw it a second time. Admittedly, I liked it more the second time than the first, but I was finally able to put my finger on the problem I have with this film and why it feels disjointed from TFA, which I loved. In the OT, you had two things: 1) the hero's journey, and 2) a ragtag group of hero's facing seemingly impossible odds. From the second you saw Darth Vader in ANH, he was terrifying. Our heroes never met him face to face in the first film and you felt like if they did, they would be crushed (dogfight aside). Basically, Luke wasn't ready to face him and that much was clear.

Enter TFA. Rey has all sorts of powers that are not explainable by what we know about the Force thus far... as someone who has watched the previous 6 movies, I needed that explained and expected a fuller explanation in the next film. I was fine with not getting it at the time, figuring I just needed patience to let the story "breathe." You see Rey beat Kylo Ren in hand to hand combat. He had years of tutelage under Luke Skywalker and then Snoke. Granted, he had been shot prior to their duel and wasn't at his best, so you can see a world in which he might best her, but they are pretty evenly matched. Kylo Ren is no Darth Vader.

But Kylo has a teacher... you don't know if he is a force user, but he seems very powerful and full of knowledge. At the end of TFA, Snoke talked of completing Kylo's training. And Rey flies off to Ach-To to meet Luke Skywalker. I found this intriguing because now you have two heroes journeys, one on the Dark Side and one on the Light Side. When they meet again, one might have the upper hand based on how they develop. Well, we know how that went. Luke Skywalker trained Rey for a day. Kylo had no training in that time. And then Kylo kills Snoke... I LOVE the idea of seeing an apprentice on the Dark Side kill his master. The problem is WHEN he did this.

Kylo has received no further training... and this is Star Wars, not The Highlander, so he is not getting any more powerful. He is at the end of his journey. Luke even compares Rey to Kylo Ren, raw force power wise. So Kylo and Reay are evenly matched except that Rey now has force ghosts and the ancient Jedi texts (page turners, they were not, I know) to help her accumulate power until their next meeting.So basically, Kylo is outmatched and we (as an audience who has watched the prior 8 films) know it. And this was the problem with over-endowing Rey with too much power from the beginning COMBINED with killing Snoke in this installment. Her success is all but guaranteed. Had they made Kylo more powerful than Rey at the outset, this wouldn't be an issue or had they kept Snoke alive and killed Skywalker, this wouldn't be an issue, but they did neither. These were two bad storytelling choices. And they were made by different writer/ directors, which is the problem with having multiple authors.

If you look at the 3 Act play story structure, you know that at the end of the second installment, things should look bleak. Now you can look at the Resistance and note that their ranks are decimated at the end of Act 2, but in the OT, you never really got a sense of how big or small the rebellion was. You knew that the empire had a ton of ships and could build a space station the size of a planet, but in the end, the spaceship dog-fights were window dressing for what we knew would always come down to our heroes coming face to face with Darth Vader, a character of immense strength. And if you didn't get that in ANH, you saw him deflect a blaster shot with his hand and cut Luke's hand off at the end of ESB.

So even though the ranks of the Resistance are decimated, our core group of heroes in intact, and you know that if Rey faces Kylo again, she could either best him in a duel or turn him. This is not a good place to be in the second installment of a trilogy. We should be feeling pretty down about our heroes' chances. At the end of ESB, you weren't really sure about Han's whereabouts. Luke had just lost a hand. The guy piloting the Millennium Falcon had just betrayed Han. And you were left to digest the fact the Darth Vader might be Luke's father, and if so, Obi Wan, Luke's teacher, had lied to Luke. We don't feel like we are at the end of Act 2 in TLJ as we did in ESB. I am not using these examples to compare the trilogies, but merely to point out a properly structured story like we had in the OT and everyone here has watched the OT. (I could do it with The Godfather trilogy as well, but I can't assume everyone has seen that a number of times).

You might argue that, well, that is the film you want, not the film they made. OK, that is right in terms of wanting to see parallel hero's journey storylines. But not in analyzing where we are in this narrative. It feels like we are at the very beginning of this story or the very end... either we are in Act I, or midway through Act III. So this film really puts the trilogy off pace. I think Rian Johnson reveled in taking a story as JJ Abrams had set up and threw it for a loop to give the audience something less predictable, but in doing so gave us less character development and in trying to be unpredictable, I think he made the outcome more predictable. In short, there is less to look forward to in Ep IX.

clmayfield : These are very interesting thoughts indeed. I suppose Disney and the authors may be pursuing a different strategy. They played with our expectations and threw them out of the window, so-to-speak. "Let the past die; kill it if you have to" was the motto. I don't expect them to deliver something groundbreaking in Episode IX (there will be nothing that would be able to come ANYWHERE close to TESB) but I do like how they are trying to do something different. I'm very curious what will be next.

I just got an idea which could resolve the timing issue. The most distracting thing for me is the short time Rey spends on Ach-To. It is barely sufficient for an elaborate training. Now what if time goes by faster on Ach-To (for whatever reason)? That would mean that Rey was not two days on the island but about two weeks (which would be more time Luke had spent with Yoda). Luke's life span could have been at its end for the same reason. He wouldn't have been there for a few years but for half an eternity. I'll have to see if that therory works with the other events of the film.

Enigmatic said:

I would say your previous post certainly qualifies to what I was referring to but I certainly wasn't trying to single you out. It's not the first time I've seen the milk meme, but the last page reminded me of what I've been seeing lately regarding TLJ. Not that this is the first time I've seen those sort of posts regarding a film. I'll take your word for it that you're just messing around, but let's be honest, the quality of discussion more often than not takes a nose dive when the memes start rolling in that mock aspects of any given film.

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To be fair, these sorts of memes are as often spread by people who love the movies in question. The most frequent prequel meme poster on another board I visit is an unabashed prequel apologist. I've reposted TLJ milk memes and I enjoyed the movie quite a bit.

It has become an annual tradition now, thanks to the December release of new Star Wars movies, to take both my father in law and my mother in law to the movies when they come to visit for Christmas.
This year we also had my daughter and her husband meet us there as well, and we all sat in our nice leather recliners (loving this concept of comfort over cramming) and watched the show.
Afterwards, talking with the family, none of whom obsess in the slightest over where Rey or Snoke come from, etc., all had a grand time. Even my mother in law, who comes along for her husband, stated she wanted to see that again.
They are the slightly knowledgable but essentially casual fans that are essential to every movie franchise success, whether it be DC, Marvel, Star Wars, or James Bond.
My granddaughter is getting a few Star Wars things for Christmas, she loves certain aspects or characters of the films but has yet to 'see' them' properly. Hopefully she grows up surrounded by various types of Star Wars films that fire up her imagination and creative juices like they have done for us older folk.

I figured it out!

Snoke is the Snoke-Monster.

Hamill said he was playing Jake (Jacob) Skywalker.

The two are brothers and we were all punked.

The LOST Jedi.

Galactican said:

I just got an idea which could resolve the timing issue. The most distracting thing for me is the short time Rey spends on Ach-To. It is barely sufficient for an elaborate training. Now what if time goes by faster on Ach-To (for whatever reason)? That would mean that Rey was not two days on the island but about two weeks (which would be more time Luke had spent with Yoda). Luke's life span could have been at its end for the same reason. He wouldn't have been there for a few years but for half an eternity. I'll have to see if that therory works with the other events of the film.

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Again you cannot apply “science” to one part of the story then ignore it in other parts because it’s “fantasy.” ie Space Leia or “The Resistance is just out of our weapons range and they are too fast to catch!” This is pure lazy storytelling, gaping plot holes and WTF moments and all the reason TLJ fails.

I have to give credit to everyone who tries to salvage this movie somehow with all the new theories on how to make the story work. It’s like trying to save a beloved pet that is dying. Sometimes you have to let your pet go and die in peace. At least you have the past movies to remember and can look forward to the new ones in the future.


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First off, Merry Christmas everyone!

Secondly

If you take what the critics say about the movie.. and implement that into the film, then you have fans saying, its just a remake..

If you change it up completely , like they did, then fans say its not Star Wars, or (at minimum) other than familiar characters,, its not a sequel

So what do you do..

What about this:

Episode IX: Invasion of the Porgs

The Porg that was on the Falcon multiplies like a Tribble when it is fed with Resistance rations. Kylo and Rey have to team up to prevent the Porg from overrunning the galaxy. Death Star tech is used but it backfires and turns the Porg into a 200 m tall beast that battles several AT-M6 walkers. Benicio Del Toro reveals that he is The Collector and calls The Hulk to save the day...

clmayfield said:

Enter TFA. Rey has all sorts of powers that are not explainable by what we know about the Force thus far... as someone who has watched the previous 6 movies, I needed that explained and expected a fuller explanation in the next film.

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This is the main part of your post I take issue with. The OT made a habit of introducing new Force abilities without explanation, or allowing characters to do things we never saw them learn. Tell me: where in A New Hope did we see Luke learning how to pull his Lightsaber to his grasp at the beginning of Empire. Where were we shown that was even a thing? But all of the sudden in Empire everyone is moving stuff around with their mind. Everyone just accepted that Obi Wan went from a disembodied voice to an actual manifestation. Did we ever get a fuller explanation of Force Lightning? Or was it just a thing the bad guys do?

The only thing we "know" about the Force is that it has the ability to do whatever the writer needs it to do.

But for some reason people are willing to accept this lack of explanation with the original movies, but not with a new series that literally begins with the title The Force AWAKENS and so far has actually mentioned to us that the Force has expanded in a way that no one yet understands.

Zuiun said:

This is the main part of your post I take issue with. The OT made a habit of introducing new Force abilities without explanation, or allowing characters to do things we never saw them learn. Tell me: where in A New Hope did we see Luke learning how to pull his Lightsaber to his grasp at the beginning of Empire. Where were we shown that was even a thing? But all of the sudden in Empire everyone is moving stuff around with their mind. Everyone just accepted that Obi Wan went from a disembodied voice to an actual manifestation. Did we ever get a fuller explanation of Force Lightning? Or was it just a thing the bad guys do?

The only thing we "know" about the Force is that it has the ability to do whatever the writer needs it to do.

But for some reason people are willing to accept this lack of explanation with the original movies, but not with a new series that literally begins with the title The Force AWAKENS and so far has actually mentioned to us that the Force has expanded in a way that no one yet understands.

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It was years that had past between ANH and ESB.. not days or hours.. with years passing between episodes..we (or rather I) can accept, "upgrades" with little to no explanation

How much time has passed between Rey first touching a saber and when she is cutting down Imperial trained Guards?

DarthLee said:

It was years that had past between ANH and ESB.. not days or hours.

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This is never explained *in the movies* -- and yet I've seen it literally posted in here by some that if it requires explanation outside of the films, it's lazy writing.

Can't have it both ways.

The fact remains, we were given no explanation for where this ability to move things with the mind came from.... and everyone was ok with that.

I'll even add this...

When we were first introduced to "The Original Trilogy" it had no "reference" material. So who was to argue what, when and how?

The Sequels, just like the prequels, are not as forgiving. So if your making a "Sequel" or a "Prequel", it has to fall in line, otherwise, you may have problems or its a stand alone series.

Zuiun said:

This is never explained *in the movies* -- and yet I've seen it literally posted in here by some that if it requires explanation outside of the films, it's lazy writing.

Can't have it both ways.

The fact remains, we were given no explanation for where this ability to move things with the mind came from.... and everyone was ok with that.

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I do agree

I believe the Prequels screwed us up in believing there were boundaries. And the Originals had us believe that the Force, was for a selective few.

And now the sequels, are breaking all those rules

DarthLee said:

When we were first introduced to "The Original Trilogy" it had no "reference" material. So who was to argue what, when and how?

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And yet, this is all still just fiction. So yes, who is to say what, when, and how? Even Lucas allowed himself to completely rewrite the details of the story for the next film if he wanted.

The Sequels, just like the prequels, are not as forgiving. So if your making a "Sequel" or a "Prequel", it has to fall in line, otherwise, you may have problems or its a stand alone series.

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This is where I disagree. If the new films aren't willing to expand the myth or deviate from what we know... I call that boring. In fact, that's one of the many big problems with the prequels: By deciding to tell the story of characters we already know, it boxed itself in when it came to storytelling. From Episode I, we knew how it all had to end. There was no suspense with the main characters because those films simply couldn't deviate. As much action as those films tried to cram in, from a narrative standpoint, they were boring as hell.

I can forgive The Force Awakens for basically being a clone of A New Hope because it was reintroducing the franchise. But one of the literal plot points, as I said in my previous post is that the Force AWAKENS. So given that tease, I want to see a new side of the Force from what we've been given. New abilities. New uses. Maybe the Force is more about raw power now than strict training. I'm GOOD with that, because we've seen the latter and don't need to do it again. If I want to see films about a Jedi needing training in the ways of the Force, I'll go watch the OT again. Now I'm invested in seeing what happens when Force powers go beyond what we expect.

I'm still a tad perplexed at the animus some of those who loved the film have for some that didn't. Some folks are way too over-the-top defensive about it. Guess it's a good thing we're moderated, as the comments here are nothing compared to what I've seen on Facebook and elsewhere... Oh man...

Was it just me or did yoda look weird... and they made him too unghostly... less blue with the light around him and more just... there.

So he was a puppet? Why did they make him look older... or did the original puppet just not age well?

alienscollection.com said:

I'm still a tad perplexed at the animus some of those who loved the film have for some that didn't. Some folks are way too over-the-top defensive about it. Guess it's a good thing we're moderated, as the comments here are nothing compared to what I've seen on Facebook and elsewhere... Oh man...

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For myself, as I've said, I loved the film. I want others to love it as well. For people who have grown with the SW franchise, like myself, to suddenly say they either hate a part of it, or worse, to say it was ruined or worse yet, that they're 'finished' wth something they've loved for decades, it is sad for me. I've tried to have some discussions with fellow fans, to just share my feelings, to see if maybe they can see my point of view, or see something we can agree on, simply to maintain the connections that we've all had. Most of us don't know each other & will probably never met, but we can come here & pick up in a conversation about our common ground.

I don't want to convince or disparage.i just want some of the good times back.


Lol

My problems with these films is that they go in creative directions so massively out of sync with my SW tastes and sensibilities it's not processes-able. Like ALIEN3 or Crystal Skull, I just think WTF?. Just damaged goods from the beginning. Doen't help at all if a bunch of other fans find them pleasing or make them big ticket sellers. The heart wants what it wants and these were not what my heart wanted at all. Torturing the OT characters by giving them horrible lives after ROTJ, and from my "point of view" behaving utterly unlike the people they are to me.. and killing them off to boot......... has to be understood that isn't going to fly with some of us at all. It feels like being crapped on frankly.
Conversely I guess it's great to see them again for most fans but man, that's just not doing it for me.

DarthLee said:

First off, Merry Christmas everyone!

Secondly

If you take what the critics say about the movie.. and implement that into the film, then you have fans saying, its just a remake..

If you change it up completely , like they did, then fans say its not Star Wars, or (at minimum) other than familiar characters,, its not a sequel

So what do you do..

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So you're saying that their ONLY possible choices were to either clone what had come before or create something that deconstructs and disrespects what came before?

Um, no. They could have created something that was new, but still a logical and satisfying continuation of the characters we loved. No reason they had to either clone or destroy what had come before in making TFA and TLJ.