X-Wing Research: Differences Between the Hero and Pyro Models
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imkold
New Member
The torpedo tube location was only consistent on pyros (obviously), red 2 had it most backwards, red 3 most forward, red 1 close to red 2, red 5 close to red 3. And where red 3 had the extra vertical panels, red 5 has some extra scribing, so it's unique on at least one other ship too (I don't have any clear red 1 picture from behind).
I also wonder about this picture: if red 2 was finished first, red 1 is the one in front, the two remaining unfinished X-wings have to be red 3 and red 5, right?
I also wonder about this picture: if red 2 was finished first, red 1 is the one in front, the two remaining unfinished X-wings have to be red 3 and red 5, right?
ILMwannabe
Active Member
Probably. Assuming that those are all heroes, the second one does have the torpedo tube far forward, so it could be Red 5 or 3. Supposedly the "heroes" were built first. Blue 1 was the prototype, but it was converted into the Red 2 "hero" later.
I found another picture apparently taken the same day. I combined it with yours so that we can verify which model is seen farthest back. There are actually four models in the picture.
But there's another set of wings on the right - it is a back view. Since Red 2 is missing from this shot & existed already, the wings on the right could be the "fifth hero" ! - maybe. Then again, there have also been pictures of a motorized, wired wingset which was either a hero model which was taken apart, or one which was never completed and was only a prototype and/or used only for a construction and wiring reference, and perhaps for experimentation. That motorized wing set has been seen in pictures taken while ESB was being just finished (1980) and in the ILM warehouse, presumably right afer ROTJ had been completed (1983). It's possible that the fourth set of wings in that picture could be just a wingset. The details seem to match - it is missing the outer parts of the wings, but does have the wedges which support the enigne cans . . .
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I see a Red 10 nice pyro is being mentioned again and again. Does that mean consensus is that this picture which used to be identified as Red 6 is now considered Red 10?
I've leaned towards it being Red 10 myself because when I zoom in on the wing stripes, the last stripe is not lined up with the edge of the chevron above leaving a space big enough for one more stripe. Although it looks like there might be breaks in the middle of the stripes, it's hard to tell because the engine is blocking much of the stripes from view and at an angle.
I'm not sure on the Red 3 and Red 10 pyros being different shots. I opened up two YouTube windows with the battle of Yavin from the theatrical release and played the two pyros side by side, which is something I can't do with my theatrical DVD or Bluray. Since you can't go frame by frame, and it is impossible to pause them both at the exact same split second to compare the fireballs, it's impossible to match the explosions to each other for sure. But the two ships are at the same angle, same size in the frame, and the same position in the frame in both pyro shots. Could it have been two different ships shot with the same camera setup and same armature and just shot one after another, that could be. ILMwanabe points out the difference between the two ships as Red 3 has stripes and Red 10 has no stripes. At one point in my multiple pausings I think I saw that difference, but I just paused them again and saw the opposite where Red 3 has no stripes and Red 10 has stripes. It's tough to tell with the unevenness of the light from the fireball. Without going through capturing the images off the Bluray frame by frame and matching them up, it still looks to me like they are the same shot reused.
Is this the pic of Red 6 that is a different model from the rest of Red 6 pics?
I had seen both pictures of the unfinished heros, but had never made the connection between the two before. If we go by the Famous Spaceships article total of 5 heros, and assume that Blue Leader/Red 2 is away in the UK, then that picture makes sense. Red Leader is finished, Red 5 may be the next one mostly assembled, while Red 3 may be either the stick with wings or the half a fuselage while the other one could be the rumored stolen model (I still don't know what the original source of that rumor was).
I would add to the Red 3 hero theorizing that Red 3 hero is missing from the pictures and video of all the models set up on the table together, while Red 3 pyro is present. Since Red Leader hero and Red Leader pyro are present, you would expect Red 3 hero to be present if it was finished. This would tend to indicate that the pyro models were started sometime between building Blue Leader/Red 2 hero and finishing Red 5 hero, so that there was overlap between building the heros and pyros, and not all the heros built before starting on the pyros.
I've leaned towards it being Red 10 myself because when I zoom in on the wing stripes, the last stripe is not lined up with the edge of the chevron above leaving a space big enough for one more stripe. Although it looks like there might be breaks in the middle of the stripes, it's hard to tell because the engine is blocking much of the stripes from view and at an angle.
I'm not sure on the Red 3 and Red 10 pyros being different shots. I opened up two YouTube windows with the battle of Yavin from the theatrical release and played the two pyros side by side, which is something I can't do with my theatrical DVD or Bluray. Since you can't go frame by frame, and it is impossible to pause them both at the exact same split second to compare the fireballs, it's impossible to match the explosions to each other for sure. But the two ships are at the same angle, same size in the frame, and the same position in the frame in both pyro shots. Could it have been two different ships shot with the same camera setup and same armature and just shot one after another, that could be. ILMwanabe points out the difference between the two ships as Red 3 has stripes and Red 10 has no stripes. At one point in my multiple pausings I think I saw that difference, but I just paused them again and saw the opposite where Red 3 has no stripes and Red 10 has stripes. It's tough to tell with the unevenness of the light from the fireball. Without going through capturing the images off the Bluray frame by frame and matching them up, it still looks to me like they are the same shot reused.
Is this the pic of Red 6 that is a different model from the rest of Red 6 pics?
I had seen both pictures of the unfinished heros, but had never made the connection between the two before. If we go by the Famous Spaceships article total of 5 heros, and assume that Blue Leader/Red 2 is away in the UK, then that picture makes sense. Red Leader is finished, Red 5 may be the next one mostly assembled, while Red 3 may be either the stick with wings or the half a fuselage while the other one could be the rumored stolen model (I still don't know what the original source of that rumor was).
I would add to the Red 3 hero theorizing that Red 3 hero is missing from the pictures and video of all the models set up on the table together, while Red 3 pyro is present. Since Red Leader hero and Red Leader pyro are present, you would expect Red 3 hero to be present if it was finished. This would tend to indicate that the pyro models were started sometime between building Blue Leader/Red 2 hero and finishing Red 5 hero, so that there was overlap between building the heros and pyros, and not all the heros built before starting on the pyros.
Oh, no, I get that all too well. I mean that they apparently used a different approach for that X-Wing than the others in the shot, which have deliberately overexposed engine lights that have no registration issues. These lights wobble in an "adjusted frame-by-frame later" way, even if it was a photographically acquired image and not drawn on an animation stand. A goofed motion control pass would be wrong in a consistent way, in that the lights would be misregistered the same amount throughout the entire shot, or at least changing in a linear fashion. These bounce around, sometimes closer, sometimes farther, frame to frame. Something is different about this element. These are images of a lit engine pasted over an unlit bird. (shrug)
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ILMwannabe
Active Member
I don't recall what the latest consensus was, but that is the controversial pyro whose stripes seem to indicate Red 5 or 10. (please see first illustration attached). There are many possiblilities:
1.) It was painted like Red 5, but it was not for ANH (ROTJ maybe?) (not likely, the picture seems to be from the ANH years)
2.) It was painted like Red 5, it was an inside "joke" by the ILMers, they never planned
it to be well seen in the film, or it was a mistake
3.) It was painted to represent Red 10, although the squadron painting sequence which ILM used in ANH has never been released publicly and is difficult to determine, or many not have been documented (I doubt that very much)
4.) At that point they didn't care about the markings anymore (I don't think that likely)
5.) Its markings may actually be different (something we've never seen before)
Yes, that is the one I was referring to. If you look at the aft end of the laser cannons, they are shorter than those of the more-photographed Red Six, and the markings do not appear to be exactly the same. Adding to the confusion, two of the stripes seem to be touching the "L" shaped marking, making it unique. (please see second illustration attached) But it's hard to tell with a black and white picture. A color version of that picture would answer the question. Boy that bird must have looked interesting in color!
P.S. - there was also a picture of a blown-up ROTJ pyro which also had a strange set of hand-painted red stripes.
The only sequence that I can think of that explains the Red 1-6, 10, and 12 markings is shown below. It is not entirely logical, but it is an attempt to document what they did back in 1976. The changes in the stripes begin at the left corner of the backwards "L" and proceed to the right. 1-6 is no problem. It gets more complicated when we reach the number 7 since there is more than one way to represent it. Then again, maybe ILM only addressed the ships that they had to build and did not lose any sleep over the markings for 7, 8, 9, and 11!
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ILMwannabe
Active Member
I see what you mean Jay - good point! With the exception of those 2 or 3 shots which show the detailed engine glow on Red 5, they never tried it again. Maybe that's why they abandoned that exposure setting - they could't get perfect alignment and the image was jumpy!
I'm glad they left that first shot in the film though, because it does look nice, even though it is jumpy.
By the way, even the overexposed lights had registration issues sometimes, but they can't be seen with the eye at normal projection speeds. Check out one of the last special effects shots in ROTJ - the shot where Wedge's X-Wing zooms out of the Deathstar just before it blows up. When you first see the back of the ship and the engine glow, hit the "pause" button on your DVD or BluRay player. You will see that the overexposed engine glow is not where it is supposed to be. The glow is not in the engines at all - it is several "feet" away from the engines! At those camera panning & moving speeds, that would happen if the "engine glow pass" is only one or two frames out of phase with the "beauty" pass.
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On a Y-Wing thread there was pointed out that Red 6 only has a red lower starboard canon, while the presumptive Red 10 model if reversed has a red upper port canon. Which then matches up to two pictures that were previously identified as Red 6, but would appear to be the presumptive Red 10 model:
Marko@Rockvoice
Well-Known Member
Exactly. So on the group picture there is no Red 6. Red 4 and Red 12 and the "red 10", but no Red 6.
Appears so. Really knocked me on my ass when I saw that pointed out. It was staring me in the face all this time and I never picked up on it, just shows you can't take anything all face value, always challenge your pre-concepts.
Going back to the pyro droids, there is this picture of the droid off an X-Wing that his been blown up:
This seems to contradict the sunglasses picture of the pyro parts that shows the droid as a separate casting from the upper fuselage details. Looking at the rough Red 4 pics, there does not seem to be a droid or slot in it (similar to the Y pyros triangles and MOM). And we have some evidence that Red 6 pyro and blue/gray (Gold 2) may have swapped R2s between them at some point. So how do we explain the pic above, unless this isn't an ANH pyro?
This seems to contradict the sunglasses picture of the pyro parts that shows the droid as a separate casting from the upper fuselage details. Looking at the rough Red 4 pics, there does not seem to be a droid or slot in it (similar to the Y pyros triangles and MOM). And we have some evidence that Red 6 pyro and blue/gray (Gold 2) may have swapped R2s between them at some point. So how do we explain the pic above, unless this isn't an ANH pyro?
Marko@Rockvoice
Well-Known Member
Good question - REALLY good question.
jedimaster
Sr Member
It's glued on. There is a gap between the droid and the messer part. The Edlund master had NO droid slot. The sunglasses pic had NO droid slot. And the original b&w pix I have and have posted here have No droid slot. The early/ nice Pyro's had the slot cut into them. Later on to save time for the pick up shots some birds just had the droid glued on top of the droid strip. The originals didn't have the messer part curved out. That was done later when the droid slot was cut in.
I don't see the seam on the droid myself. But if they started out with droid slots cut in and droid plugs, then switched to gluing the droids in, and then finally gave up and left the droids out on the last models; then I wonder which pyros were plug droids and which were glued. Using ILMwannabe's list of pyros, I sorted them into what I think might have the order they were built in based on the photos seen. I'm listing the pics I have of these models, which I obviously don't have as complete a reference library of pics as others do so this list is limited:
Red 3 nice pyro (table of models pics)
Red 4 nice pyro (reference pic, table of models pics)
Red Leader nice pyro (pre-weathered in group of ships pic, table of models pics, pyro shot in film)
Red 12 nice pyro (pre-detailed in group of ships pic, 2 reference pics, table of models pics)
Red 10 nice pyro (in back of group of ships pic, table of models pics, reversed pic hanging on monofilament)
Red 6 nice pyro (detailing pics, 2 pics on wood stand)
Red 6 2nd nice pyro (B&W Bruce Logan pic)
Red 4 rough pyro (2 Viskocil pics, pyro shot in film?)
Red 6 stickgun pyro (pyro shot in film)
Red 10 stickgun pyro (pyro shot in film)
Red 3 stickgun pyro (pyro shot in film)
Obviously the last four ships were droidless as Red 4 rough pyro is pictured without one, and it's unlikely the stickgun pyros would have bothered with gluing droids in. I'm not sure when the glued in droids would have started in the list. I put Red 6 last in the list of nice pyros because it is absent from the table of models pics, so it would seem it was built last. Red 10 is listed as being finished before Red 6 because it appears unfinished in the table of models pics (and it is mostly covered up in the group of models on stands pics). Red 12 is finished in the table of models pics while Red 10 isn't, so I assume it was finished before. Red Leader is fully painted but not weathered in the group of models on stands pics, while Red 12 is yet to be detailed, so I assume Red Leader was finished before Red 12. As for Red 3 and Red 4, they are not in the group of models on stands pics, but are finished in the table of models pics, so I'm assuming they were painted and weathered before Red Leader and that's why they are absent from the group pic but on the table. That's the order that made the most sense to me.
If Red 6 had a droid that could be removed, and it was built after all the other nice pyros, it would seem that all the nice pyros had removable droids and maybe on the 2nd Red 6 from the B&W pics might have had a glued in droid. Unless the pyros were built in a different order or there was no order to which ones they decided to glue or put a plug in?
Red 3 nice pyro (table of models pics)
Red 4 nice pyro (reference pic, table of models pics)
Red Leader nice pyro (pre-weathered in group of ships pic, table of models pics, pyro shot in film)
Red 12 nice pyro (pre-detailed in group of ships pic, 2 reference pics, table of models pics)
Red 10 nice pyro (in back of group of ships pic, table of models pics, reversed pic hanging on monofilament)
Red 6 nice pyro (detailing pics, 2 pics on wood stand)
Red 6 2nd nice pyro (B&W Bruce Logan pic)
Red 4 rough pyro (2 Viskocil pics, pyro shot in film?)
Red 6 stickgun pyro (pyro shot in film)
Red 10 stickgun pyro (pyro shot in film)
Red 3 stickgun pyro (pyro shot in film)
Obviously the last four ships were droidless as Red 4 rough pyro is pictured without one, and it's unlikely the stickgun pyros would have bothered with gluing droids in. I'm not sure when the glued in droids would have started in the list. I put Red 6 last in the list of nice pyros because it is absent from the table of models pics, so it would seem it was built last. Red 10 is listed as being finished before Red 6 because it appears unfinished in the table of models pics (and it is mostly covered up in the group of models on stands pics). Red 12 is finished in the table of models pics while Red 10 isn't, so I assume it was finished before. Red Leader is fully painted but not weathered in the group of models on stands pics, while Red 12 is yet to be detailed, so I assume Red Leader was finished before Red 12. As for Red 3 and Red 4, they are not in the group of models on stands pics, but are finished in the table of models pics, so I'm assuming they were painted and weathered before Red Leader and that's why they are absent from the group pic but on the table. That's the order that made the most sense to me.
If Red 6 had a droid that could be removed, and it was built after all the other nice pyros, it would seem that all the nice pyros had removable droids and maybe on the 2nd Red 6 from the B&W pics might have had a glued in droid. Unless the pyros were built in a different order or there was no order to which ones they decided to glue or put a plug in?
jedimaster
Sr Member
As it came from the mold from the Edlund master. Just smooth fuse from the rear of the canopy to the front of the messer part. No droid slot and No plug. Some had the droid slot cut in and some (later ones) were stuck on.
So do you think it was just kind of random as to which ones got a slot cut and which were just glued? Other than Red 6, is there any other X-pyro that we think might have had a removable droid plug?
jedimaster
Sr Member
I think the earlier Nice pyro's all had the droid slot cut out. They had time to paint up the birds with a nice paintwork and droid slots. The later birds were painted roughly and rushed so seeing as the screen time would only be a split second they just stuck the droid on the plate.
Seeing all the care and effort that went in to making Red 6, that says to me it was one of the first X-wings made, and destroyed. Considering we have photos at every stage of its creation, filming and destruction, thats something they would have wanted to do to document their early work (and not something they would have time to do later when they were rushed) and would also explain why it's not on the table. It had already been destroyed and the red canon reused for red 10 (which is why it's the only thing painted on the model in the table shot).
As it came from the mold from the Edlund master. Just smooth fuse from the rear of the canopy to the front of the messer part. No droid slot and No plug. Some had the droid slot cut in and some (later ones) were stuck on.
Given the variations between the hero models, which hero was used to form the pyro master?
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