X-Wing Research: Differences Between the Hero and Pyro Models

I spent the evening eyeballing the Red 3 photos I have and have concluded that all the Red 3 hero shots I have are of the same model in the Lucasfilm Archives. It is a totally different paint job to the Red 3 pyro on the table of models:

Y-Wing_05.jpg
TableofModels2markedup.jpg


While these pics that I initially thought were ANH reference pics like the other ships:

Red3.jpg
red-3-top-back.jpg


Are the same model we see today in the Lucasfilm archives:

kg-lucasfilm_archived-red3-reference-021.jpg
kg-lucasfilm_archived-red3-reference-025.jpg
kg-lucasfilm_archived-red3-reference-007.jpg
kg-lucasfilm_archived-red3-reference-029.jpg


There are no top or bottom shots, but comparing them to the side shots looks to be a match. Looking at the top down pic, the pilot looks more like the open face helmet pilot in the model today, then the pilot used in the original X-Wings build. Which tends to indicate that this model was built during ESB, or that it was completely refurbished during ESB.
 
There are no top or bottom shots, but comparing them to the side shots looks to be a match.

It's pretty simple, actually. It's a match because it's the same model, and always has been.

Looking at the top down pic, the pilot looks more like the open face helmet pilot in the model today, then the pilot used in the original X-Wings build.

There were different styles of pilots used for the ANH-built heroes, including the Red 3 open-faced one. The ANH modelers also used different combinations of arms from different kits for the hero pilots.

Which tends to indicate that this model was built during ESB, or that it was completely refurbished during ESB.

It doesn't "tend to indicate" that at all, IMO. That Red 3 hero was built for ANH, using an ANH-era hero armature and ANH-era hero castings, and finished in a most ANH-era style, especially when compared to some of the paint jobs on the "nice" pyro models.

Also, you're correct that it was most definitely modified and utilized for ESB, but that has been sussed out here a decade or more ago, so I'm afraid you're not really adding anything new to the collective understanding of the history of this particular model.

Those pictures of the Red 3 hero miniature in the "Art of Star Wars" book were taken during production of the first movie. I know because I have more of that same set that have never been published. They were taken at the same time as the other photo-studies of Red 1, Red 2 and Red 5.

Of course, you're free to speculate all you want, but if you're going to challenge the origins of the Red 3 hero miniature, be prepared to be asked to provide some kind of actual evidence beyond a simple hunch.
 
Red 3 that you show here is known to have had landing gear and all that moss put over it to represent Lukes x-wing being levitated out of the swamp in ESB as far as I recall. And that's why it has more paint and weathering on it.
 
There were different styles of pilots used for the ANH-built heroes, including the Red 3 open-faced one. The ANH modelers also used different combinations of arms from different kits for the hero pilots.



It doesn't "tend to indicate" that at all, IMO. That Red 3 hero was built for ANH, using an ANH-era hero armature and ANH-era hero castings, and finished in a most ANH-era style, especially when compared to some of the paint jobs on the "nice" pyro models.

Those pictures of the Red 3 hero miniature in the "Art of Star Wars" book were taken during production of the first movie. I know because I have more of that same set that have never been published. They were taken at the same time as the other photo-studies of Red 1, Red 2 and Red 5.

Of course, you're free to speculate all you want, but if you're going to challenge the origins of the Red 3 hero miniature, be prepared to be asked to provide some kind of actual evidence beyond a simple hunch.

I'm not speculating, I'm trying cut through all the speculation and look at the physical evidence from that period. The Rosetta Stone is the picture of models lined up on the table. It is the evidence that clearly shows all of those models existed at the same time during ANH. So we know for a fact from those pics that Red Leader hero, Red Leader pyro, Red 5, Red 4, Red 3 pyro, Red 6, Red 12, Tie Killer, MOM-Y, and triangles-Y are all contemporaries. There are 4 models missing from that display. We know Blue Leader and Red Jammer were built first and then sent to the UK right away, which is a plausible reason for their absence on the table. The other two absent are Red 3 hero and blue/gray/tiger-sprocket Y-Wing. Although blue/gray does not appear in photos with any of the other models (unless the hypothesis that the Y cockpit on the table is blue/gray is correct), blue/gray is visible in the film during the trench run and visible outside Gold Leader's cockpit (both times alongside TIE Killer). By process of elimination, that leaves Red 3 hero as the only model that does not appear in a photo alongside any of the other models, and I have not so far been able to pick it out in the film itself either (I'll keep looking).

That leaves the only evidence of Red 3 hero's existence during ANH production being the Red 3 hero pics from "Art of Star Wars" and the unpublished pics from that set. They do look similar to the other hero pics of Red 5, Red Leader and Red 2; which is why I first thought they were pictures from ANH period. But now I can't say that they are definitely ANH or ESB, because being similar in appearance does not mean the pics did not come from ESB production. Both are equally valid. Unless the molds were destroyed after ANH, there's no reason an ESB X-Wing couldn't be cast from them or even assembled from left over parts from ANH. So that is not evidence for ANH or ESB, still equally valid.

I have pictures of Red Leader pyro, Red 2, Red 4 and Red 12 with closed face helmets on the pilots. I can't see pilot faces for Red 3 pyro, Red 5, Red 6, or Red leader pyro. Do any of these have pics of them with open face helmets similar to Red 3 hero?

There are only two sets of hero and pyro models to compare, since Red 5 hero and Blue Leader/Red 2 hero did not have pyros. So the only thing we can say is that they matched up the Red Leader paint jobs pretty closely, and they did not attempt to match the Red 3 paint jobs at all. There's no real rule that can be derived from just those two examples.

There are postings referring to a "Blue 3 Biggs" pic similar to the "Blue 4 John D" and "Blue 12" pics. But the original posts of these pics are now broken links. Was this the pyro or the hero?

Unfortunately, the Famous Spaceships article X-Wing count doesn't match up to the know photos of ships. They don't use the terms pyro or hero. The article refers to three types of X-Wings being made for ANH. It mentions 5 "stage models" with lights in the engines, cockpits and weapons tips being made. But 3 or these "stage models" had "motorized wings" and 2 did not. And then there were 9 models "made from silicone rubber molds and back-cut for use in scenes in which they had to explode". If the 3 with "motorized wings" are heros, and the 9 that "had to explode" are pyros, then what are the other 2 "stage models"? Since there are 4 heros with "motorized wings" (Red Leader, 2, 3 and 5), and 5 pyros (Red Leader, 3, 4, 6 and 12), it doesn't match up well to the Famous Spaceships article. Do all the hero ships have "motorized wings", or are some non-motorized? If "stage model" and hero are the same, where is the 5th "stage model"? (The rumored stolen model?) If all 5 pyros represent the ships that "had to explode" and not "stage models", the other 4 of the 9 might have been the slipshod pyros that we have a few pics of. I don't know how to make the photographic evidence fit the Famous Spaceships count otherwise.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But which is the extraordinary claim? That Red 3 hero was built and used for ANH, even though it has a different pilot from the others and it does not have photo evidence of it around the other models. Or that Red 3 hero was built for ESB, even though it uses the same hero molds as the ANH models and paint technique while being photographed similarly to the other models. I'm on the fence unless I see some evidence that clearly links it to ANH.
 
Last edited:
I think that red shirt was first released in 74. But then again in 78..... Hmm... Gonna need to see more pix.... Just to be sure.;)
 
I think that red shirt was first released in 74. But then again in 78..... Hmm... Gonna need to see more pix.... Just to be sure.;)

:lol

Challenge: find another pic with Muren wearing that same shirt, without any glasses and with that much hair, setting up a shot with a model from ESB, and I'll post every pic I've got I'm my reference library...

:cool
 
Hi!

here you can find a screenshot taken from a japanese video (sorry for the low quality) where there are two X-Wings, the Red 3 and the Red 5 swamp version.
I think with this picture, the doubts about the RED 3 will be clarified



StarWars.jpg
 
Yeah, when that video came out some friends and I discussed that shot and how it's definitely Red 5 that was dressed up for the swamp shot and not Red 3, which is clearly intact in the background, wings closed.

Two of the questions this picture raised at the time were:

1. If Red 3 wasn't modified to stand in for Red 5 for the swamp scene, then what were the new cutouts just behind the nose and both lower main engine cans of the hero Red 3 for? The assumption had been that they were made to accommodate landing gear. That bit of speculation may yet prove true.

2. And what about that remnant X-Wing armature in the foreground. That's not unlike what the hero Red 5 looks like today, but that's obviously not the hero Red 5. Or is it? Assuming it's not, which hero X-Wing is it? Since Red 2 remains intact, perhaps that's what's left of Red 1.
 
LOL @ you guys. Blue 5, don't take any of this personally, OK? It's just that we old folks have been over this stuff to the point of ad nauseum - well, not quite, but you know what I mean.


There are only two sets of hero and pyro models to compare, since Red 5 hero and Blue Leader/Red 2 hero did not have pyros.

Somewhere or other there is a pic showing what appears to be a Red 5 pyro. I expect the Stonecutters probably laugh at me every time I say that - it's probably just Red 10 with the split in the wing stripes not visible. :)

There are postings referring to a "Blue 3 Biggs" pic similar to the "Blue 4 John D" and "Blue 12" pics. But the original posts of these pics are now broken links. Was this the pyro or the hero?

Sorry, can't recall. Try the Modelers, Myth, Magic & Mendacity website; Kurt has most of everyone's secret pics posted.

Unfortunately, the Famous Spaceships article X-Wing count doesn't match up to the know photos of ships. They don't use the terms pyro or hero.

Both were industry terms that crept into the hobby vernacular later on.

The article refers to three types of X-Wings being made for ANH. It mentions 5 "stage models" with lights in the engines, cockpits and weapons tips being made. But 3 or these "stage models" had "motorized wings" and 2 did not.

They are all what we refer to as the heros. Red 2 is unmotorised, for example, but is considered a hero.

And then there were 9 models "made from silicone rubber molds and back-cut for use in scenes in which they had to explode".

Are you counting the 5 heros as part of this run? They weren't - the total is 14 models, not 9. This distinction in the FSoF&F article is made because the heros were made with cast upper fuselages, vacformed lowers and built-up wings, while the pure pyros were built entirely from castings.

Here's a list of the known/semi-known ships:

Red 1
Red 1 pyro
Red 2
Red 3
Red 3 pyro
Red 4
Red 4 rough pyro
Red 5
Red 1 Pyro
Red 3 Pyro
Red 6 (Pyro??)
Red 6 rough pyro
Red 10(? red laser cannon)
Red 12

Also, I already posted regarding the Red 3 landing gear modifications for ESB, and you seem to have missed that or perhaps not taken me seriously. Hopefully Beaz's and Scott's posts above reinforce that point - YES, it was modified for ESB, but it was de-modified too, and remains a more than 90% original SW model.
 
Could it be that red 3 was modified for the hoth scene but was cut from the final print. Given that red5 was already prepped with moss for the dagobah scene. We know Ted 3 was a stand it throughout the film for 5.
 
That bit of speculation may yet prove true.

It's deduction more than speculation, IMO. There's a door over the slot cut for a nose landing gear, and both lower cans were replaced: what else can you call it?

Or is it? Assuming it's not, which hero X-Wing is it? Since Red 2 remains intact, perhaps that's what's left of Red 1.

Or Red 4/6, if one of those was the 'other' hero? I defer to you on this one of course.
 
Could it be that red 3 was modified for the hoth scene but was cut from the final print. Given that red5 was already prepped with moss for the dagobah scene. We know Ted 3 was a stand it throughout the film for 5.

Sure, maybe Hoth take off, maybe Cloud City landing.
 
Could it be that red 3 was modified for the hoth scene but was cut from the final print. Given that red5 was already prepped with moss for the dagobah scene. We know Ted 3 was a stand it throughout the film for 5.

Hangar shots? Sounds plausible. The moss prep for Dagobah might have been fairly difficult to remove - remember, the script called for that ship to be lost at Cloud City, so if they filmed those shots first, they might gone pretty liberal with the dirtying-down.

The model was obviously restored as Red 4 in time for ROTJ, but by that time they'd perhaps noticed how short they were running on good X-wing models. :lol
 
It's deduction more than speculation, IMO. There's a door over the slot cut for a nose landing gear, and both lower cans were replaced: what else can you call it?

Well, since I believe I was the first to surmise that those cutouts were for landing gear when I first saw them in Jason's pictures, well before Kurt published them, I'm sticking with "speculation". But what's a bit of semantics between old friends? :)

Or Red 4/6, if one of those was the 'other' hero? I defer to you on this one of course.

By my math, it goes like this: five heroes constructed, one stolen during production, by several accounts, and the remaining four are Reds 1, 2, 3, and 5, for which we have plenty of photographic evidence. Looking at that screencap from the ESB video, we see Reds 3 and 5, and since we know that Red 2 survived ESB intact, we can deduce, given Occam's razor and all that, that the armature we see in the screen cap is most likely that of Red 1.
 
Indeed, indeed! :lol I still think you're quite entitled to use a stronger word though.

Ah yep...the theft aspect. Ta, don't have my thinking cap on today.
 
Hangar shots? Sounds plausible. The moss prep for Dagobah might have been fairly difficult to remove - remember, the script called for that ship to be lost at Cloud City, so if they filmed those shots first, they might gone pretty liberal with the dirtying-down.

The model was obviously restored as Red 4 in time for ROTJ, but by that time they'd perhaps noticed how short they were running on good X-wing models. :lol

I didn't mean hangar shots. The only time we see red 5 is prepped for take off as the rebels flee and that is the 1:1 scale front section. But as Kevin said the takeoff would have been the model but as I recall we don't actually see the takeoff just Luke next to the full size and then next on his way to dagobah. More likely the Cloud City landing or both as they would have needed a model with landing gear for both.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top