X-Wing Research: Differences Between the Hero and Pyro Models

[TheRealMcFly]

EDIT: I hope this is on topic... it seems the cockpits from hero to pyro are the same. Still, I'm after a better ILM cockpit... this is a collage of reference that has already been shared publicly. That being said, if there is anything that needs removing, just let me know.

Its known the dash gauges are from the Airfix 1/24 Hurricane. I can spot three bandai 1/48 Tiger bits in there. The long thing by side of the box behind the pilot, but what is the extra part at the base? Opposite this part on the other side coming off of the box is a very tiny cylindrical bit, also from the tiger. Back up front behind the pilots left arm is a rectangular bit with round gauge, also from the Tiger.

Old news?

 

[Nwerke]

Probably old news to the hardcore guys but useful to me, thanks. Visor on the front is from a 232 or 222 IIRC, but I assume everyone knows that already.

 

[MonsieurTox]

There're also some Chieftain parts (half rods with holes)

 

[TheRealMcFly]

Probably old news to the hardcore guys but useful to me, thanks. Visor on the front is from a 232 or 222 IIRC, but I assume everyone knows that already.

Got it; the Tamiya 1/35 Sdkfz 222.

There're also some Chieftain parts (half rods with holes)

Of course, it couldn't be the tiny airfix. The Tamiya 1/25.

Thank you both. I will be compiling a new IDed image from the recast to heck and back cockpit.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Missed this thread before. What a joy.

But there seems to be a clear difference between pyros and heroes not mentioned here. Hero wings don't open anywhere near as wide as the wildly splayed open pyros'. On the table shot, this difference is easily seen between the two Red 1s. Easy to see on screen too. Exploding ships have their upper guns far higher than the motion control ships.

However, the waters do get muddy ( as with everything relating to these things!), as there are at least two shots of a 'wide-open' Red 1 doing motion control duties: Wedge coming to Luke's rescue, and the shot where Red Leader takes his hit from Vader. All other moco ships have the tight, closer together configuration of the common or garden hero.

 

[MonsieurTox]

Of course, it couldn't be the tiny airfix. The Tamiya 1/25.

Well I have both the 1/25 and 1/35 Chieftain, and Im pretty sure that the parts come from the 1/35 so it wouldnt cost an arm !

 

[TheRealMcFly]

Thank you again... talk about a price difference.:thumbsup

 

[Nwerke]

Missed this thread before. What a joy.

Ain't it?

But there seems to be a clear difference between pyros and heroes not mentioned here.

Dunno, I guess we just passed over that one this time - it's certainly been discussed in earlier threads. I guess we could ask "does this configuration represent A) a simple result of the no-armature construction, or B) the "idealised" config that they wanted all along but couldn't achieve with the moco armatures? Not that we'll get an answer unless someone actually knows the appropriate persons, or that it would matter to most SS builders. I'm interested because to me the "pyro" wings somehow presses the big red "OOOH X-WING SHINY!!!" button in my brain a bit more than the hero layout.

at least two shots of a 'wide-open' Red 1 doing motion control duties: Wedge coming to Luke's rescue, and the shot where Red Leader takes his hit from Vader.

Good eye. Another topic discussed in the past was the gradual realization that there wasn't as much of a hard and fast distinction between "hero built for motion control work" and "pyro built for explosions" as we used to think. Mainly from the new reference pics that have come out in the past decade demonstrating the high build and paint quality of some "pyro" models. (Also there are more non-moco shots in the Yavin battle than was played up in the day since the Dykstraflex didn't work properly a lot of the time. Perhaps they shot hero models with dolly moves sometimes, too.)

For a while it was common to speak of "hero-pyros", meaning ships built up from pyro castings but not necessarily intended for detonation from the outset (as opposed to the "stick-gun" quickie models). Perhaps we should call them built-up models versus cast models and leave it at that?

We just don't really know whether the "nice" cast models like Red 4 and Red 12 were actually fitted for explosives, internally pre-scored and so on from the start or if they were blown up as an afterthought when time started to run out. My guess is the latter but someone correct me if I've forgotten some obvious source. Getting old!

Cheers,
Martyn

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Actually, Martyn I felt a bit stupid after making my post as it's such an obvious point you guys must already be ware of, of course, but it's an interesting one and is a factor which can clearly distinguish a non-hero from heroes in distant shots.

Personally I dig the hero look - especially in profile - though I bet Lucas wanted a more wide open effect, and the mechanism denied him that. After all, if you're going to make an x-shaped design you might as well have it properly x-shaped - Lucas's first sketch and Cantwell's prototype seem to bear out that desire. The hero look is less radical, looks more plane-like, and as such could well have been an irritant to GL.

 

[Nwerke]

You shouldn't feel daft at all - as best I can recall we noted it as a 'tell' but discussed little more than that. Your idea could be on the money, but some of the concept art shows fairly wide 'splays' too so perhaps it was the design or model team preference too? With what we now know about the care with which at least some cast models were built, I have to think it's wrong to just assume it was all just slapdash get-it-done stuff. It would not have been hard to match the hero wing splay on all the models.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

You shouldn't feel daft at all - as best I can recall we noted it as a 'tell' but discussed little more than that. Your idea could be on the money, but some of the concept art shows fairly wide 'splays' too so perhaps it was the design or model team preference too? .

Of course, yes, it's true that other concept art shows wider X-splays than how the heroes ended up. In fact, I've seen no concept art at all with a hero-style narrow splay. Seems to me the narrower splay of the hero must've been down to the limitations of the motor mechanism - and as, I say, I'd be surprised if it didn't give Lucas a big pain in the rear thruster at the time.

Btw re concept art - what drawing is the latest in the design evolution of the X that we possess? There's a huge gap between the Johnston drawings I have and the models.

 

[TheRealMcFly]

If I am understanding correctly you want to see the most finished piece of concept art before a physical model was made?

This is the first image that came to mind:

The angle looks close to the Hero to me. IIRC the reason they abandoned the half cylinder engine split was because it was deemed to unrealistic in life.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Yeah, this is the exception - it does match the hero. Probably shoots a hole in my theory, too, since it was completed november 75, probably before the 'limitation' of the wing mechanism was encountered. And plus it was a real inspiration to the whole ILM team, according to the MoSW book, especially Paul Huston, who seemes to have at that point gotten a bit weary of 'drawing X-wings all day'. I'd always thought this image was done much later, after the design had been virtually completed. Wrong. And yet... McQuarrie here has practically the final canopy, which means the bubble idea must've been abandoned as early as Nov. 75...

 

[moffeaton]

Reposted from something I wrote a while ago, somewhere else:
____________

From ANH-era paper documents, recently unearthed, read in passing to me last night - oh I was taking FURIOUS notes:
The X-Wing was referred to as "Project 504". All of the props/models had similar types of names, so that accounting could actually pinpoint how much it cost to make something.

1975:
12/08 - Armature Completed
12/9 to 12/12 - Body finished
12/8 to 12/11 - Wings finished
12/22 to 12/24 - Steve Gawley and Joe Johnston paint an X and a Y (the first two)
(one day off for Christmas)
12/26 - The X and Y get on a plane to ENGLAND.
12/31 - Second X-wing is finished, and goes in front of camera for tests.

To me, this pretty much proves my pet theory that the "Red Y" and "Blue 1" were the very first ones made. The only other models mentioned this early are a TIE Fighter and the "Pirate Ship". Amazingly, the "Pirate Ship" was photographed at this stage, and pics were sent to England (maybe on the 26th?)... this is amazing, because the "Pirate Ship" is the Blockade Runner. This means that they started building the cockpit in England while it was still on the Blockade Runner... and then when the design was nixed by Lucas for being too much like the Eagle from Space:1999, the model makers had to make whatever they came up with match with what was already underway in England, as far as practical sets go. Yes?

Also, someone named "Malesh" (if I heard the name correctly) painted on some early stuff. No credit can be found for this person, yet.

 

[Nwerke]

Sha-weet, Jason. Great info and yeah, that nails down the point that the Falcon cockpit design was frozen regardless of the shape of the rest of the ship.

 

[GKvfx]

Reposted from something I wrote a while ago, somewhere else:
____________

From ANH-era paper documents, recently unearthed, read in passing to me last night - oh I was taking FURIOUS notes:
The X-Wing was referred to as "Project 504". All of the props/models had similar types of names, so that accounting could actually pinpoint how much it cost to make something.

1975:
12/08 - Armature Completed
12/9 to 12/12 - Body finished
12/8 to 12/11 - Wings finished
12/22 to 12/24 - Steve Gawley and Joe Johnston paint an X and a Y (the first two)
(one day off for Christmas)
12/26 - The X and Y get on a plane to ENGLAND.
12/31 - Second X-wing is finished, and goes in front of camera for tests.

To me, this pretty much proves my pet theory that the "Red Y" and "Blue 1" were the very first ones made. The only other models mentioned this early are a TIE Fighter and the "Pirate Ship". Amazingly, the "Pirate Ship" was photographed at this stage, and pics were sent to England (maybe on the 26th?)... this is amazing, because the "Pirate Ship" is the Blockade Runner. This means that they started building the cockpit in England while it was still on the Blockade Runner... and then when the design was nixed by Lucas for being too much like the Eagle from Space:1999, the model makers had to make whatever they came up with match with what was already underway in England, as far as practical sets go. Yes?

Also, someone named "Malesh" (if I heard the name correctly) painted on some early stuff. No credit can be found for this person, yet.

I thought I heard pencil scribblings on paper........:rolleyes

Gene

 

[moffeaton]

Dude, I would have bought a fax machine, if you were willing/able to send that stuff along

I LIVE for anecdotes like that. :lol

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Reposted from something I wrote a while ago, somewhere else:
____________

From ANH-era paper documents, recently unearthed, read in passing to me last night - oh I was taking FURIOUS notes:
The X-Wing was referred to as "Project 504". All of the props/models had similar types of names, so that accounting could actually pinpoint how much it cost to make something.

1975:
12/08 - Armature Completed
12/9 to 12/12 - Body finished
12/8 to 12/11 - Wings finished
12/22 to 12/24 - Steve Gawley and Joe Johnston paint an X and a Y (the first two)
(one day off for Christmas)
12/26 - The X and Y get on a plane to ENGLAND.
12/31 - Second X-wing is finished, and goes in front of camera for tests.

To me, this pretty much proves my pet theory that the "Red Y" and "Blue 1" were the very first ones made. The only other models mentioned this early are a TIE Fighter and the "Pirate Ship". Amazingly, the "Pirate Ship" was photographed at this stage, and pics were sent to England (maybe on the 26th?)... this is amazing, because the "Pirate Ship" is the Blockade Runner. This means that they started building the cockpit in England while it was still on the Blockade Runner... and then when the design was nixed by Lucas for being too much like the Eagle from Space:1999, the model makers had to make whatever they came up with match with what was already underway in England, as far as practical sets go. Yes?

Also, someone named "Malesh" (if I heard the name correctly) painted on some early stuff. No credit can be found for this person, yet.

Thanks for this! And from it I deduce thusly:

Since we're told ILM spent 8 months working out the wing mechanism, and the Mcquarrie painting was done about a month before the model was completed, then perhaps the painting is more of a production painting than concept art, and reflects the new close-wing development of the hero model rather than inspiring it. Assuming the pyros were made after the first few heroes it's interesting that a decision seems to have been made to revert to the earlier wide-open look of the earlier concept art - unless of course no one in fact cared at all, and the wide angle was just the easiest way of sticking the wings on...

I've always thought the Red Y was built first too, mainly because of the highly intricate early paintjob it has in some photos, since painted over. It had at one point a Space 1999 style level of detail in which even the piping was adorned with tiny decals and carefully drawn lines and stripes etc. My pet theory is Lucas came and told them to trash it up, hence its second livery, and relaid piping, and that all the succeeding Ys inherited this messier look.

The Rinzler book and the article in the SF&Fantasy Modeller mag both confirm the Falcon cockpit deal, with McCune talking of 'sawing off' the cockpit from the 1st pirate ship and glueing it on the second (one of the glories of Rinzler's book is that it's pure mid-70s SW, hence the MF is 'the pirate ship' for the whole first half of the book, just like when we were kids; the MF was the 'pirate ship' as much as the Falcon back then. Innat right, Martyn?).

 

[TheRealMcFly]

As promised... here is an updated compilation of the cockpit:

I know its not exactly on-topic as the pyros/heroes used the assembly. If there are any objections I will start a new thread.

 

[GKvfx]

What Jason is referring to is a vintage Gantt chart that someone at ILM (presumably Richard Edlund, since it looks like his handwriting) created late in 1975 to try and get a handle on the work that needed to be done before the start of first unit photography.

What a Gantt chart does is chart out a timeline for the project horizontally, with the various task that need to be accomplished lined up vertically. As you move across the chart, you can see how the various stages dovetail together.

What's really fascinating is the fact that we use the very same principles in our projects today. Except we use Microsoft Project and they used a pencil and graph paper.

Regarding the X-wing and Y-wing - here is an excerpt comp'd together (this thing is about 5' long....):

Regarding the "Pirate Ship" and the changes it went through - the Gantt chart has a deadline of January 9th, 1976 for it to be detailed, painted, and photographed for England. At the time the Sci-Fi & Fantasy Modeler article was written (Feb/March 2007), we didn't have this piece of paper or the Rinzler book, so what you read was an educated guess on our part based on interviews with the ILM guys and some reasonable deductions based on the schedule. Thankfully, we got it right (or at least close). Rinzler's book points out that the Falcon exterior set was built on the quick due to the late change. Since the interior cockpit set had to feature all the lights and a increased level of detail and would be much more time consuming to rebuild in a different configuration, I can see why they didn't want to change it.

Interestingly, the radar dish on the Falcon was also part of the original "Pirate ship". I guess someone liked it. It adds a sense of symmetry to the Falcon.

Regarding the decals on the Y-wing - I've seen those photos too. the Y-wing had a LOT of them. Here's the weird thing - so did the TIE fighter. On the ball, on the arms and on the hatch (including a partial "Goodyear" logo and some of the stencil data from the big rig kits). I don't think Lucas put the kabosh on any of that, since it was likely done while he was in England. I suspect the decals were just omitted from some/most models just to save time. I mean really, would they even show up? Probably not.

Gene