X-Wing Research: Differences Between the Hero and Pyro Models

[Blue 5]

Well it seems we have a consensus on these pics both being Red Leader hero, with a droid swap. The Red Leaders are the only pyro and hero that I have seen in a picture together, in both the table of model pics and the four X-Wings together on stands (by matching paint details and wing markings to confirm there are two). Although I don't know why they needed a pyro Red Leader as Red Leader's end is a fireball on the surface of the Death Star and not a blown up model, and the 4th revised draft script they shot from describes the same shot of a fireball on the Death Star surface.

Now I'm going to go out on a limb and slaughter a few sacred cows, as I am having trouble with matching up some of the common wisdom I've read on this forum and the physical photo evidence. The first hand grenade I'm going to throw is aimed at Red 2 pyro. We know that Blue Leader hero was built first and then sent to England. We know that by comparing period pics of Blue Leader and Red 2 hero, that they match up in details which supports the story that Blue Leader was repainted and finished as Red 2 when it returned. There is also the absence of a Red 2 model from the table of models pics, which makes sense if Blue Leader/Red 2 hero was still in England (which is supported by the lack of Red Jammer in the pic too). The three period pics of Red 2 that I have look to my eye like a hero model. We have pics of Red 2 hero today traveling with MOM, and the model paint job matches up with the period pics of Red 2 hero except for a droid swap (even the pilot is still the original closed helmet figure). And Red 2 survives the battle in both the film and in the 4th revised draft script, which would not need a Red 2 pyro then. So using Occam's razor, I propose that there was no Red 2 pyro model built for ANH.

My other hand grenade is for Red 3 hero. The table of models pics show a Red 3 which is identified by several people as being Red 3 pyro. The one period pic I have of the bottom of Red 3 looks like a pyro to my eye. The famous spaceships article that was reposted on the forum states that there were five "stage models" built, but only three of them had wings that opened like the heros (Blue Leader/Red 2, Red Leader and Red 5). There are pics of a Red 3 with a broken wing in the Lucasfilm archives, but the paint details do not match up, the pilot is a later open face helmet version and there is an R2-D2 clone in the droid socket (as opposed to Red 2 which still has the original paint job and pilot). In both the film and the fourth revised draft script used for shooting, Red 3 meets a firey end which would require a pyro version. Using Occam's razor again, I propose there was no Red 3 hero built for ANH and the model in the Lucasfilm Archives was built for ESB.

Those are my theories, let the outrage begin. Does anyone have any pics that shed more light on these models?

 

[imkold]

Thanks, I'd like to see that Red Leader with Red droid.

It can be seen in the movie, in the background of this Red 5 closeup shot:
http://www.starwars.com/img/explore/encyclopedia/technology/xwing/history_slideshow/bio02.jpg

 

[Blue 5]

It can be seen in the movie, in the background of this Red 5 closeup shot:
http://www.starwars.com/img/explore/encyclopedia/technology/xwing/history_slideshow/bio02.jpg

Oh, I had that already. I just assumed it was Red 2 and Red 5, but now that I look at the fueslage, that does appear to be Red Leader with Red 2's droid.

 

[ralphee]

Bit of info, the Red Leader pyro can be seen being detonated on the Empire of Dreams documentary!
Id say the "movie" explosion is a random pyro shot or, dare i say it, the Hero?
They may well have destroyed the hero for all we know, its never been seen since, not to my knowledge.

Lee

 

[Blue 5]

Bit of info, the Red Leader pyro can be seen being detonated on the Empire of Dreams documentary!
Id say the "movie" explosion is a random pyro shot or, dare i say it, the Hero?
They may well have destroyed the hero for all we know, its never been seen since, not to my knowledge.

Lee

Nice, I'll have to rewatch that one. That's my next question, is where is Red Leader today? We have Red 2 on tour, people who say they have seen the remains of Red 5 as an armature with wings, and the pics of Red 3 (although I don't think this is ANH Red 3). But Red Leader is MIA.

The Red Leader pyro scene is absent from the film. There is a shot of Vader landing a shot on Red Leader's engine which is done purely with animation, the model is unscathed during that shot, just a glow added to the exterior of the engine. Then we have Red Leader's cockpit and POV shots, followed by Luke looking out his cockpit, and then it cuts to a big fireball being detonated on the surface of the Death Star with no Red Leader model in the shot. If the detonation of a Red leader model is in the finished film, it must stand in for another ship instead.

Which brings me to another bit of speculation, the death of Red 3 and Red 10 are the same pyrotechnic shot. But the shot is a bit odd, because the model is very static like it is securely mounted by its armature. The model is covered by a huge fireball, but the wings remain securely in place unlike the other explosions which tend to scatter the parts. Could this pyro shot be the Red Leader hero being detonated?

 

[jedimaster]

Red leader, red droid.

 

[jedimaster]

Don't forget a lot of the original pyro models that were detonated were rejected by Lucas and they called in someone else to re-do those shots. The models that were used for those second shots were just thrown together and look like they were painted by a nine year old. The red 4 pyro below is a far cry from the beautiful John D pic.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Some of those stands were apparently motorized and could "roll" the models. (I think the first two in the picture below are motorized). I believe that when you see a "barrel roll" it's the actual model rolling, not the camera (other movements nothwithstanding). They did the same with the Millenium Falcon in ESB & ROTJ.

There are several shots in ANH where the X-Wings roll, and they seem to use the nose mount or the butt mount for this.

However, there is evidence that most of the ships were shot seperately as you say. For example, we see the "Red Five" model several times in one shot (approaching the Deathstar, several scenes).

Perhaps to simplify things they were able to shoot a few together on those movable stands.

As I understand it, the movable stands were called 'model movers'. There was very often a combination of camera and stand move. Many shots of formations were done with multiple models shot together - Vader and his henchmen in the trench, for sure. The tightness of Vader's TIE formation meant it could be done in one shot, I guess. Others not, eg, rear shots of X or Y formations loosely 'bobbing' around in the trench...

 

[jedimaster]

"Which brings me to another bit of speculation, the death of Red 3 and Red 10 are the same pyrotechnic shot. But the shot is a bit odd, because the model is very static like it is securely mounted by its armature. The model is covered by a huge fireball, but the wings remain securely in place unlike the other explosions which tend to scatter the parts. Could this pyro shot be the Red Leader hero being detonated?"

Makes sense as we already discussed this here.

http://www.therpf.com/f10/anh-pyro-x-wing-references-mainly-red-6-search-97933/index6.html

 

[Nwerke]

The first hand grenade I'm going to throw is aimed at Red 2 pyro.

I'm not sure anyone claims there was a Red 2 pyro? Can't recall.

There are pics of a Red 3 with a broken wing in the Lucasfilm archives, but the paint details do not match up, the pilot is a later open face helmet version and there is an R2-D2 clone in the droid socket (as opposed to Red 2 which still has the original paint job and pilot). In both the film and the fourth revised draft script used for shooting, Red 3 meets a firey end which would require a pyro version. Using Occam's razor again, I propose there was no Red 3 hero built for ANH and the model in the Lucasfilm Archives was built for ESB.

Just saying it again, there wasn't a special effort made to match the colour schemes between pyros and heros. Red 1 pyro and hero match better than Red 3 pyro and hero, but that's an exception, not a rule.

The Red 3 hero in the Archives is the one built for Star Wars. It's seen in a clear, large top view in The Art of Star Wars. There's an underside view taken in the same shoot, on Behind the Magic.

The model's underside WAS MODIFIED for ESB, as it was given landing gear to act as a stand-in for Red 5.

The pics you ask for are all on the various X-wing threads. Recommended reading.

We have Red 2 on tour,

No we don't. It hasn't been seen in public since the 90s. The only tour pics I have are Uwe's, and look as if they were taken with a very early digicam. (Does anyone have newer pics, or has this model also been destroyed or damaged too badly to tour?)

people who say they have seen the remains of Red 5 as an armature with wings

That is no myth, again, the photograph is here on the forum.

If the detonation of a Red leader model is in the finished film, it must stand in for another ship instead.

As Lee noted, many of the models were basically wasted. No usable footage.

 

[ralphee]

Couple these Pyro detonations at random, with the like of John Dykstra apparently smashing an X wing off a table to see how it would break up, there is no real way to track what was built at the time and actually destroyed, same rule as the Y wings and TIE's really IMO.

Id love to think Red Leader is in the hands of a collector or crew member, its for me the ONLY bird to gawp at, thinking otherwise, saddens me to the core :lol.

lee

 

[ILMwannabe]

Just my two cents . . .
These past few pages have once again addressed some of the "great mysteries" of the Star Wars Deathstar Battle scenes - how many X-Wings were heroes and which? Did they build a Red 10? Why a Red Leader pyro? Interchangable droids, etc. So much ground to cover - some details may never be known - or maybe someone out there does know but can't tell!

Geez, where to start? How about droids - definitely interchangeable and sometimes even missing! (see closeup shot of 2 Y-wings in trench in ANH). Looks like no one built a Red and Black (drum-shaped) droid for Red Leader at the last minute, so they substituted a dome-shaped Red R2 for Red Leader's hero ship in the first movie. In addition to R2D2, there were R2's that were black with white details (seen on a Y-Wing heading to the Deathstar and on Red Leader), silver with black, silver with green, orange with black, one predominantly white, and one with beige or gold and gray trim. There was also a tall white and green (or gray) one for John D, and a white and red R4. At least we were blessed with a wide variety of R2 units! They tried to vary, but remember they could not use bright blue in front of the blue screen.

Why a Red Leader Pyro? - perhaps they originally planned a more spectacular demise for it, but it did not work out (and the pyro was destroyed) so they went for the explosion on the surface instead. Also, I respectfully disagree that the blast on Red Leader's engine was only an animated optical effect - to my eyes it looked like a pyrotechnic enchanced with an optical effect. On the other hand, I believe Luke's hit was purely done animated.

Red Three Hero - a very mysterious bird - hard to pinpoint in the movie, since most of the time it is doing barrel rolls. Never seen in 1976 ILM shop photos with others, only posed pictures for books (first published in 1979). The one seen in the movie does seem to have its wing stripes extending into the front surface of the wing, but the colors do not seem to match the bird in the book pictures. Most of the different pictures of the Red Three hero started appearing after ESB came out. And why does the Red Three Pyro have such different markings which do not match the hero? Is it possible that the red 3 pyro was destroyed before the Red 3 hero was finished? Doesn't seem likely - and even if it was, ILM had reference photos of the Red 3 pyro.

I've always suspected that Red Three was the last hero built. It has the most different nose, and the wings definitely are motorized and work well. It also seems to be the "darkest" ever painted. Also had working lights on the engines and laser gun tips, which also featured fiber optics, exactly as reported in "Famous Spaceships of Fact and Fantasy", which is why I give that source high marks for accurate reporting. It was that source that said that five X-Wing Heroes were built, four of them with lights and three with motorized wings. But if you buy that, it begs the unanswered question: which was the fifth hero? Red 4 or 6? Both had little dialogue - Porkins did not seem to exist in some drafts of the script, yet later had roughly as much dialogue as John D, so which character was "important" enough to justify building his "hero" model? Or was the fifth hero built but then sacrificed to make molds for the pyros?

Gold Five (pops) was apparently a "nice pyro" - the model seems to have made it to the final cut when his port engine blew off before he exploded (look at the markings on the nose section, they seem to match.)

Yes one Y-Wing was a gift to Mr. Ladd for his excellent efforts to save SW (some have speculated that it was Gold Leader - TIE Killer), but what happened to the Red Leader pyro? And Gold 2? Also "gifted"? They both seemed in good shape . . .

So many unknowns . . .

 

[Nwerke]

Since we see Four on a stand, and Six propped up on a kind of cradle, and dangling from wires, I'd guess maybe Four was the hero, if either of them were.

I've wondered whether possibly Three and Six were painted at the same time, since they are the only birds which share large amounts of that pale green colour.

 

[ILMwannabe]

Interesting - the greenish color yes - that didn't occur to me. And Red 6 was nicely painted too.

I suspect there's more documentation out there, in people's private collections and in film takes that were not used. Maybe not answers to all our questions, but many. With any luck maybe more info. will come out in our lifetime as more of the involved folks retire and/or decide to sell off their valuables and collections.

 

[TheRealMcFly]

I tend to believe the accuracy of the Famous Ships of Fact and Fantasy as well. Let's say there are 5 hero X Wings out there. Maybe the droid swaps were completely accidental. If there is a mounting point under there then we could assume that any droid inconsistencies would indicate Hero versions. If we could see the nose cones better I'll bet they got swapped, along with the cannons.

In the Sculpting A Galaxy DVD Lorne Peterson explains there was no shortage of models to blow up and makes a point of explaining no one came around asking for the hero versions.

I too want to believe that Red Leader still exists. And where is Red 2 (Blue Leader)? I know the big X wing is a hit on tour but there's got to be some place it could be displayed. Was it in MoM?



Grant McCune supposedly had his in his office. Which one was that.

 

[Nwerke]

Red 2 was shown in earlier displays but as far as I know the only pics of it are Uwe's. It hasn't been seen in public in a long time.

Same applies to Red 3; we know the reason for *that*, of course.

Maybe the same thing has happened to Red 2?

 

[ralphee]

I say we volunteer a "team" to go out there, habve a spring clean, dust up and repair some of these gems?
Itll work guys, trust me, that George Lucas is a really nice fella, and he doesnt care about Star Wars anyhoo now :lol.
Seriously, would be very cool, to see something like that happen, just to have it all re documented again, hey maybe Red Leader is stuffed under his mattress for a rainy day?

lee

 

[Blue 5]

I'm not sure anyone claims there was a Red 2 pyro? Can't recall.



Just saying it again, there wasn't a special effort made to match the colour schemes between pyros and heros. Red 1 pyro and hero match better than Red 3 pyro and hero, but that's an exception, not a rule.

The Red 3 hero in the Archives is the one built for Star Wars. It's seen in a clear, large top view in The Art of Star Wars. There's an underside view taken in the same shoot, on Behind the Magic.

The model's underside WAS MODIFIED for ESB, as it was given landing gear to act as a stand-in for Red 5.

The pics you ask for are all on the various X-wing threads. Recommended reading.



That is no myth, again, the photograph is here on the forum.

I saw Red 2 pyro listed in trying to count all the ships mentioned in Famous Spaceships. But I don't think it existed, and since you didn't either, I think it is a safe bet it didn't.

The problem is most of the pictures from older posts on the X-Wing threads have broken links, I can't see what the posts are referring to. I've saved all the pics I can find on here, and have been sorting them into folders for each ship. My Red 3 folder only has two pics which show the model supported on the port side mount on the armature, showing the top and rear, then another showing the bottom. I'm not convinced that it is even pics taken around the time of ANH, they could be reference shots for ESB. Can you repost any pics of Red 3 you have from the time of ANH?

Why is it that the Red 3 model has a different pilot sculpt than the rest of the ships?

 

[moffeaton]

Gold Leader was not gifted to Ladd, it's still out there in private hands, though!

 

[Blue 5]

Gold Leader was not gifted to Ladd, it's still out there in private hands, though!

This isn't a Y-Wing thread, but since it was brought up here there are two explanations I've seen for the fate of the 5 known Y-Wings. One suggestion was that blue/gray was gifted to Ladd, TIE Killer fell into private hands, Red Jammer and the MOM Y are still with Lucasfilm, and triangles was pyroed and recently the remains were sold by Profiles in History. The other suggestion is that blue/gray was blowed up and has disappeared, TIE Killer went to Ladd, and the rest the same. Since there was more than one blowed up Y, it seems more to make sense that blue/gray was sacrificed to the pyro gods, and there was someone who pointed to the lone Y cockpit as being the remains of blue/gray on the table of models since that was the only Y-Wing missing besides Red Jammer. So it seems plausible that Alan Ladd got TIE Killer and then either before or after he passed away, it was gifted or sold to a private collector where it is found today. Anybody have a different explanation?