Who killed James Bond ?

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Darth Lars

Master Member
I think James Bond died when Cubby Broccoli died. The last real Bond Movie was Goldeneye, release one year before his death. The Dalton-era movies and most of the Moore-era movies, as well as Diamonds are Forever weren't good, but each one had its moments.

Tomorrow Never Dies is crap, The World Is Not Enough is laughable and Die Another Day is a travesty. Casino Royale is boring. Quantom of Solace is forgettable. (I saw it again, after I had forgotten that I had already seen it ... that's why). I didn't even bother to see Skyfall.
To me Daniel Craig appears like a jerk. The Craig-era Bond has no style, no suave, no finesse. He is only brutal muscle. He lacks the humanity of Connery and Moore. There must be humanity if you are going to feel for the character. A real Bond movie is not only a spy story with lots of action, it is also adventure and sense of wonder, which the Craig-era movies don't have.
 

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Solo4114

Master Member
I disagree. I mean, I see why you might say that, but I think Craig's performance is really a good mask of a guy who feels a lot more. You see cracks in his armor at various moments in the films, and that, to me, is what suggests there's more going on below the surface. Guilt, fear, rage, frustration, pity, sympathy, you get the briefest glimpse of this in Craig's interpretation of the character, who otherwise keeps his face a mask of impassivity. He keeps it about the job. Always the job. Except, he's human, and he can't keep that up forever.

I think you should watch Skyfall if you want a better sense of Craig's read of the character, but I can't get too far into why that is without revealing the plot. Suffice to say it's MUCH better than QoS, and faster-paced than Casino Royale.

With Casino Royale, part of the issue is that the source material is actually quite slow-paced. It's the fist Bond story (in the novel series, I mean), it has very limited action, and most of the events take place at a casino table as Bond tries to bankrupt an enemy agent. There are various sequences added to the film to provide action-packed moments, but they're more just punctuation marks in the story, rather than the focus of it. I find that to be a strength, but I can see how it was really jarring for long-time movie-Bond fans. What I'd suggest is try watching the film with fresh eyes to see Bond's character change. He goes from rookie agent making his first kills, to cocky field agent working the case, and then gradually gets worn down by the job. He finds love with Vesper, and we see the facade of the stoic killer disintegrate as he enjoys domestic bliss. And then, with Vesper's betrayal and his grief, anger, and guilt that surrounds it, we see the walls go back up which will be with him for years to come, the film suggests.

The problem was that QoS...really didn't do anything with this. I blame this largely on the editing of the film, which focused so heavily on fisticuffs and disorienting 1/4-second cuts a la the Bourne films, that you end up missing the performance that Craig gives. It's in the background, hidden behind layers of editing and incomprehensible fight sequences where you can't tell who's hitting whom. You get exactly two (2) moments in the film that (to my memory) really differ from that. First, you get the death of his ally -- who we've met previously -- and a rare moment where he shows real regret, tinged with anger at the fact that he has to leave a good man who faithfully served his country dying anonymously in a street, and where he finally gets his revenge on the man who manipulated Vesper into betraying him. Outside of that, I found the film to be largely soulless, which was a particular comedown from the previous film.

But Skyfall does a lot more with the character, and does it well, in my opinion. Give it a chance. You may never like Craig's stone-faced read of the character, but watch for the subtleties in the performance, the moments where the mask slips, where Bond cannot help but be human. They're rare, but they happen, and to me, they suggest a really tortured character -- a far cry from the cavalier playboy of the Moore era, and a lot closer to the grim, determined agent of the all-too-brief Dalton era.
 

Laspector

Master Member
I just thought the last act of Skyfall was horrible. They just basically stick Bond in a house and he Rambo-izes it. I dunno, Bond defending a house is not Bond to me.
 

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reelprops

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Dude...

Read the books. Moore is NOT Bond, he's a comedian with a gun and not a very good one at that. The recent films, all three of them, are better than any of the Moore films in my opinion. I think you don't like it because you're a fan of "Bond light" and not the roots of where the character came from. Bond is ruthless, abusive, cunning, manipulative, and takes a damn beating. He rarely makes quips, he gets the job done.

Craig is an excellent Bond and Casino Royale & Skyfall are excellent Bond films.

There are two types of Bond, the Connery "line" and the Moore "line". The first is truer to the original character and generally more serious. The second is more of a comedic parody of that character. If you prefer the Moore line (Moore & Brosnan) then I'm afraid we'll never see eye to eye. :lol

- - - Updated - - -

And for the record, my order of Bonds is:

Connery
Connery
Connery
Craig
Dalton
Lazenby
Brosnan









Moore

:lol

I have to agree 110% here. Craig is an awesome Bond. I just watched a view to a kill last night and it was plain horrible. Moonraker, HORRIBLE!!!
Craig embodies everything that James Bond is and should be. Period. No one killed JB, it's called the changes in time.

Reel


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Keiko

Sr Member
I'm with you, though I wasn't crazy about Skyfall and liked QoS. That said, Daniel Craig is Ian Flemming's James Bond more than anyone before him, though Dalton did well too.

Dude...

Read the books. Moore is NOT Bond, he's a comedian with a gun and not a very good one at that. The recent films, all three of them, are better than any of the Moore films in my opinion. I think you don't like it because you're a fan of "Bond light" and not the roots of where the character came from. Bond is ruthless, abusive, cunning, manipulative, and takes a damn beating. He rarely makes quips, he gets the job done.

Craig is an excellent Bond and Casino Royale & Skyfall are excellent Bond films.

There are two types of Bond, the Connery "line" and the Moore "line". The first is truer to the original character and generally more serious. The second is more of a comedic parody of that character. If you prefer the Moore line (Moore & Brosnan) then I'm afraid we'll never see eye to eye. :lol

- - - Updated - - -

And for the record, my order of Bonds is:

Connery
Connery
Connery
Craig
Dalton
Lazenby
Brosnan









Moore

:lol
 

RamboKnivesFan

New Member
They simply decided to reboot the franchise , but in a more VISCERAL way
and Casino Royal was the first james bond book
Quentin Tarantino was supposed to be the director , but it not worked
but the ACTUAL Casino Royal movie is quite an impressive movie that are in fact truly based on the book

for myself i would liked to see pierce (the rea james bond for me) acting in the latest movies ....but it will never ever happen
 

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PoopaPapaPalps

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
It isn't so much as "who" killed Bond as it is "what" killed Bond, and it is what "kills" every character: Time.

Times change and tastes change. There is no secret of longevity for a character based on his/her "core" characteristics; what really matters is how open that character is to adaptation. What's the leeway someone can take on interpretation with a character, but still have enough vague qualities to him/her to say "This is still the character everyone loves so much" (see the Dr. Who model in Chapter 5)? If it's vague enough, even with key points you have to hit, then you can do whatever you want and it works. If there are certain elements that have to stay prevalent throughout, then much change may not work. Nolan's Batman is a prime example of the former, Snyder's Superman is a prime example of the latter.

In short, Bond's been around forever because he changes to whatever is popular at the time; for better and for worse. Moore for the 70's goofy/cheese cinema (as much as I love Moore, I can admit that), and Dalton for 80's harder, action films I.E. Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, etc. Craig's Bond just followed this trend. The Bourne movies came out, were a big hit, and in a Post 9/11 world, audiences wanted more grounded characters in a more serious, darker-toned world. Also, those movies made a lot of money, which is the ultimate reason to change any formula. When there's money to be made; screw tradition.

So, Bond had to follow Bourne and change with the times. It's sad when a popular franchise like Bond, which used to set the trend, has to bend to it later on but it is the price to pay to stick around in the cultural zeitgeist. Skyfall being the best example of this, currently. Though there are some winks and nudges to the classic Bond movies (M being a man, padded door, Moneypenny, hopping over a Komodo Dragon, a "supervillain" among many others), Bond had to bend over backwards to emulate the Nolan Batman movies. Dark Knight, in particular. They even went so far as having a Bond Manor and a surrogate Alfred, and as ludicrous as it was, that movie made an insane amount of money and is considered now as one of the best James Bond movies ever made.

Take that as you will.


For my money, nobody did it better than Connery. After him would be Brosnan and then Moore. All three of which would be decimated if Fassbender were to ever be cast as Bond in a production with a good script (I'm still hoping for that).
 

nitrox

Sr Member
Personally I think Craig has done a great job with Bond, although I do agree that QoS is a very weak Bond movie. I have a real dislike for Roger Moore's take on Bond, he's smooth to the point of being a smarmy p***k and in no way looks like he could fight off any well built enemy.

People often try to put Dalton down but TLD is one of my favorite bond films. I also liked Brosnan's bond, although I disliked the bond movies he was in. The gadgets just got ridiculous to the point it was like watching an episode of Inspector Gadget.
 

Alan Castillo

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
We watched Skyfall last night and as promised, now reporting in.

I think that Skyfall heralds a new era. Casino Royale was almost like Doctor No, in that it stripped everything back to basics. No gadgets, a sinister organization, Bond vulnerable, etc. Quantom of Solace went too far in the direction of emulating the Bourne films, and ended up a poorly edited mess (behind which is hidden a decent movie). With Skyfall, though, I think we're back to a sense of equilibrium. We're no longer trying to run away from the past style, but we're also not adopting it wholesale because the formula demands it. We'll still see Bond as vulnerable and relying on minimal gadgetry, and not making quips after kills, but we've got a new "M" who knows and respects Bond, having fought beside him, and who is back to the original "M"'s office. I can't help but think that signifies a shift in styles, albeit one of degrees rather than a complete abandonment of one style in favor of another. Rather, it's a melding of styles, that will (I hope) be at once familiar to the old-school Bond-film fans, and fresh in its independence from formula.

I think Dan's brilliant evaluation describes my point of view pretty much completely, albeit with some reduced enthusiasm.

My favourite moment of the movie ? The tractor arm grabbing the train. It made me smile from ear to ear, laugh, and say out loud "as iiiiiiif !!" :lol It felt 'Bond' :cool

But again, no gadgets, and it was made quite clear by Q that we won't be seeing any again :(

I did love the nod to the DB5 and its related dialogue :D

Long story short, it was a great movie, but barely cut it as a Bond one.

As a comparison to how I feel, the new Star Trek movies are not the Star Trek we are used to at all. Yet I overcame that instantaneously and see them as Trek, any Trek, and better than no Trek at all :lol, so rather than let it die out, I embraced them wholeheartedly.

I hated Casino Royale and Quantum, and to me, it was like watching Trek (any Trek) starring Bert, Ernie and Big Bird. They went so far off the mark that they completely erased Bond from my mind for the past 8 years.

I therefore stand by my initial assessment that Bond is dead :lol. "My" Bond is anyway.

Skyfall gave me back (sort of) a James Bond, and while he is not my Bond (and I doubt I will ever embrace the new 'style' wholeheartedly), it's better than no Bond at all :lol

The most positive point about the new Bond is that my wallet will be very happy ..... no props to collect :lol
 
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Michael Bergeron

Legendary Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Long story short, it was a great movie, but barely cut it as a Bond one.

As a comparison to how I feel, the new Star Trek movies are not the Star Trek we are used to at all. Yet I overcame that instantaneously and see them as Trek, any Trek, and better than no Trek at all :lol, so rather than let it die out, I embraced them wholeheartedly.

You're certifiable. I'm not sure I'll be able to take anything you ever say seriously again. :lol

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Alan Castillo

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
You're certifiable. I'm not sure I'll be able to take anything you ever say seriously again. :lol

You mean you used to before ? ................................. suckeeeeeeeeeerrrrr :lol

Seriously though, its just my opinion (and no, it can't be changed :lol).

There have been tons of reboots, but, say, Superman is still Superman despite the major revamp. Even Batman of the '60's is still Batman ... almost 50 years later :lol

Bond, IMO, is no longer Bond, although in Skyfall they did ... sort of, kind of, perhaps, in a way, so to speak, for the sake of argument ..... make a ... small... effort for us old farts who like Bond to be full of quips and so forth ...... and with gadgets coming out his nose :lol. They even went as far as to put in a full 2, not one, but a whole 2 :lol, three second burst of the Bond opening notes during some action sequences here and there.

What else can I say.

Call in the white ambulance :lol
 
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Michael Bergeron

Legendary Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Bond, IMO, is no longer Bond, although in Skyfall they did ... sort of, kind of, perhaps, in a way, so to speak, for the sake of argument ..... make a ... small... effort for us old farts who like Bond to be full of quips and so forth ...... and with gadgets coming out his nose :lol.

Whereas the the rest is for the older farts that appreciated Bond's real roots with the books and many of the original films. :p

White ambulance called! :lol

(And for the sake of others because I know Alan gets it, this is just fun debate and teasing. He's allowed to like whatever he wants. Don't hate.)
 

Alan Castillo

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Whereas the the rest is for the older farts that appreciated Bond's real roots with the books and many of the original films. :p

Hogwash you young scallywag, respect your elders :darnkids (If you are over 47, I'll take that back :lol)

OK, I now know why we are in disagreement.

The first Bond movie I watched was The Spy Who Loved Me, in 1977. I was 10 years old. That movie got branded into my memory forever. A submarine car for frack's sake :lol. THAT was "MY" Bond. As a 10 year old, I assume you appreciate I had not read any Bond books :lol.

Point is, practically every single Bond movie after that, right until Die Another Day in 2002, followed practically the same pattern / Bond 'mould' I was used to, ie, quips, gadgets etc etc. That was for some 25 years !

During that time, I did not read the books, but I did watch (ie rented the VHS's when I could afford to :lol) all the previous Bond movies. They were fantastic, and from those, I could very easily see, appreciate, and love, how Bond evolved to the point of TSWLM.

"My" Bond is the movie Bond, not the book Bond.

Now compare those to the the latest Craig movies, and you will understand what I mean when I say 'my' Bond is dead :lol

(Oh, btw, in case you hadn't noticed, this is a MOVIE replica prop forum, not a BOOK forum ... and we are in the MOVIE sub-forum :lol Furthermore, the Craig movies have no props as we know it, so, there it is. Strike 3 - out :lol)

Seriously though, I am very sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
 
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Michael Bergeron

Legendary Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
(Oh, btw, in case you hadn't noticed, this is a MOVIE replica prop forum, not a BOOK forum ... and we are in the MOVIE sub-forum :lol Furthermore, the Craig movies have no props as we know it, so, there it is. Strike 3 - out :lol)

Correction. In case you hadn't noticed you are posting in the ENTERTAINMENT forum which encompasses movies, books, comics, video games, etc. Secondly, I own multiple props from the Craig films because they are there, even in Skyfall (radio!). Third, you are clearly not a fan of the "Movie Bond" but rather the "Moore Bond" who did indeed (sadly) influence the series after him. Connery shot a man in cold blood non-chalantly. He smacked women around. He used and abused those around him with little remorse. He had scarce gadgets in his first two outings. Craig is that Bond. Back to his MOVIE roots.

However you confirm my suspicion that nostalgia is the only reason people like Moore. The Bond franchise you like is a caricature of the true origin tailored for campy 70s and 80s audiences. :p

I'm younger than you but I grew up with a steady diet of the good stuff. Connery. The one and true James Bond.

Game, set, and match. :D



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Michael Bergeron

Legendary Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I don't know who killed your Bond but I cheered him on and then put a few bullets in the corpse to make sure he was dead. :lol

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