What did Wendy Froud / Wendy Midener contribute to Yoda's creation and development?

[NickMaley]

"WHO REALLY MADE YODA? Q. Was it Stuart Freeborn? Was it Wendy Midner? Was it Jim Henson or Frank Oz and the Muppets? Was it that Yoda Guy, Nick Maley? What about Ron Hone and Deep Roy? All these people claim a connection to Yoda. So who really made Yoda?

A. They ALL did, in some way or another.
Because there were 4 different versions for EMPIRE STRIKES BACK different people contributed different skills on different versions. Here is a breakdown..."

thoseYodaGuys.com

 

[frosty]

great info nick, thanks for joining the discussion, a great website you have there

 

[darthwhitey]

"WHO REALLY MADE YODA? Q. Was it Stuart Freeborn? Was it Wendy Midner? Was it Jim Henson or Frank Oz and the Muppets? Was it that Yoda Guy, Nick Maley? What about Ron Hone and Deep Roy? All these people claim a connection to Yoda. So who really made Yoda?

A. They ALL did, in some way or another.
Because there were 4 different versions for EMPIRE STRIKES BACK different people contributed different skills on different versions. Here is a breakdown..."

thoseYodaGuys.com

Very cool thread...

Oddly enough, I got to meet Nick a couple weeks ago in St. Maarten at his shop. I didn't spend nearly enough time there and regret it. I'm sure he'd have some great insight!

Welcome to the RPF Nick!

Brad

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I'd never seen this thread before... so this is the most enlightening necro-bump I've ever encountered. Thanks for that! :thumbsup

 

[lonepigeon]

A. They ALL did, in some way or another.
thoseYodaGuys.com

Thanks for chiming in Nick!

Nice to see you here.
I met you several years ago at your gallery in St. Maartin.

 

[thegreatgalling]

Def. a great read. Welcome!

 

[NickMaley]

open The Art of The Empire Strikes Back to page 93 and take a good look at the picture credited to Joe Johnston in the lower right corner... (I mistakenly thought McQuarrie had done it)

That IS Yoda... Not the scrunchy faced long haired version from the usual McQuarrie production paintings...

so if you want to say who has claim to Yoda's look, it's Johnston, not Freeborn

This drawing was never in the workshop. Prior to modeling Yoda was YOUNG. The drawings looked nothing like this. ALL drawings of Yoda as an old hobbit-like creature MUST have been made AFTER he was modeled... for merchandising purposes. No "ifs", "buts" or "ands", I was there and my memory on this is very clear.

 

[NickMaley]

Stuart Freeborn's expertise was in men in masks... and Chewbacca is really the same kinda costume as what was done for the apes in 2001, and really isn't that sophisticated

I'm afraid this is nonsense. Sorry, but it is. When judging any technicalogical progression, whether in movies or anything else, you have to gauge that technology by the times in which it was created, what came before and how unique and original that creation was AT THAT TIME. 2001 was 8 years before Star Wars and at that time was absolutely groundbreaking. It was the very beginning of animatronics... worldwide I believe. These are not static masks like Planet of the Apes which was released the same year. These have mechanical facial expressions unlike anything that preceded it. Although simpler than the first yoda mechanism built by Stu 8 years later, in relation to what existed in it's day, it was a far greater leap forward in technology than Yoda was.

When they needed someone who could build a life like puppet they went to Jim Henson, who gave them Wendy Midener.

No, they didn't. They gave the job of BUILDING the puppet to Stu Freeborn. And it was through Stu's influence and with his agreement that they approached Jim Henson to get personnel to OPERATE that puppet.

she even got listed in the credits on the movie and is now on starwars.com as the yoda fabricator.

Riddle me this Batman
if she was just another person follow Stuart Freeborn's direction why was she the ONLY PERSON singled out in the credits as THE YODA FABRICATOR?

That is answered on http://thoseYodaGuys.com. It was a matter of politics. Credits are fickle and fraught with budgetary and political influences. There are photos of me in Star Wars books with the creatures from Mos Eisley Cantina, yet I didn't even get a screen credit on that movie. There are photos of Dave Barclay operating Yoda yet he didn't get a credit on that movie either. The problem with the history of Star Wars is that it is written by people who read a few scraps of information and PRESUME that is the whole picture. It isn't. Just look at how this writer warps Wendy's credit "Yoda Fabricator" by adding "The" at the beginning. Would it have the same implication of you added "A" (a Yoda fabricator) instead?

I don't want to marginalize Wendy's contribution at all. I initially started thoseYodaGuys.com because so many of the other posts here treated her unfairly and disrespectfully. Wendy's contribution was VERY significant. But anyone who marginalizes Stuart's work on Yoda is sorely mistaken.

And I'll assume the film's credits and the official website is something that they would care about...

The official website is overseen by fans who copy what they are given. The archive of information is gathered by archivists who were not there and gather scraps of information that were written by other people who were not there. The credits are assembled by people in the production office who were rarely on set and record heads of departments and obvious contributors. The real history is often lost in the gaps in between.

what, only the guy who designed the outside of the car gets credit, forget the guy who designs and builds the frame, engine, transmission and driving systems... all the stuff that actually makes it a drivable car...

Now that is a very good analogy. The look of the outside is only one facet of the item as a whole. A car would be nothing without an engine... and a wreck without brakes... and static without a driver. Yoda could not exist without the outside insightful modeling, or the groundbreaking mechanism, or the superb performance the puppeteers brought to it. ALL their contributions were essential... so what are you all arguing about? Why can't you give all concerned credit for their contributions? Why are you demening anyones work on the project? Even the trainees played a part and deserve respect for that.

but she wasn't lumped in with the rest of the creature shop and makeup cronies who did grunt work.

As one of those "cronies" that at times worked 60 hours straight doing the "grunt work" I take exception to this remark. What has the writer achieved that makes him sich an expert in marginalizing other people's work? The comment undermines the principle of his car analogy. It is out of line and very pretentious.

so I guess it all leads to one simple question...
Is Yoda just his look (as you think that gives sole claim to only one creator) in which case credit should go to Johnston...

Wrong again. Stu spent 5 months working on Yoda's appearance. The drawings that came before were young, skinny and largely discarded.

yoda is more then the sum of his parts... and Stuart Freeborn contributed a part...

Read http://thoseYodaGuys.com ALL the contributors only provided a part... Stuarts WAS the largest of all parts.

 

[NickMaley]

yoda didn't just have to look good, he had to perform
go take a look at the Greedo and see just how far a leap yoda is by comparison

Don't underestimate the influence of the budget. We were given 10 weeks to create creatures for the cantina and 10 months to create Yoda and others for ESB. Time and money... that is the difference.

it's documented in The Making of the Dark Crystal by Brian Finch (published in 83 and long out of print so good luck, I paid a mint for mine, so it's not some hazy memory or an interview done 27 years after the fact...)

I hate to burst your bubble, but ALL the books, including this, are written as here-say by people who were not there and who take answers from a few hours of interviews and often misinterpret them. They only know the answers to those questions... they don't even conceive the politics and if they don't ask the right questions, they miss the most insightful answers. What you presume from available quotes isn't correct because you don't have the information the writer didn't ask about. Conclusion... presume nothing.

what they brought with them was all the experience that made a puppet look and behave life like...

how that puppet worked was every bit as important as how it looked...

And that's a fact. The performance that Frank Oz and the other puppeteers contributed, by far was the most important element in creating the personality that we all grew to love. Without that performance, everything we built would go to waste (and did on lesser movies). But like a great driver needs a cutting edge car to win the race, The puppeteers needed what we built in order to create that performance. As I constantly state on my sites, Yoda was the evolution of many elements from many collaborators. Stu, Frank and Wendy particularly and myself to a lesser extent. But I don't see why even those who made the smallest part can't be given credit and respect for their contribution.

you think Yoda would be so beloved if his performance had been similar to Greedo's? or Ponda Boba's? Or the Doros? the Jawa's? etc.

notice none of them blinked or had mouths that moved... other then Chewbacca I can't think of an alien in AHN that had any moving parts...

Actually many of the creatures in the cantina had mechanical movements. Not all were captured well on film. Chewie had lip movement with no external operator. The writer can't think of them, it doesn't mean they aren't there.

I also think that you all are forgetting Ralph McQuarrie who did the original illustrations and is more responsible for the look than anyone...
Stuart Freeborn just put his facial features on Ralph McQuarrie's idea...
so is it really Freeborn's baby?

As I said, the only parts taken from those drawings were the color, ears and forehead. The rest was Stu's.

and with as rabid as LFL is at protecting their intellectual property, it's not like Wendy Froud could fly under the radar, as she still works in the film industry... so if anyone was going to say something about her claim made very publicly on her website... they probably would have done it by now

The army of people who work for Lucasfilm now were not there either. They know little more than you do about who did what.

and conversely, Brian Froud was deep in production on the Dark Crystal the entire time and after ESB was made... 1977-1982 why would he have anything to do with Yoda? He was busy creating an entire world for Henson...

Brian was not involved.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

You are replying to 4 year old posts, but man, that info is awesome. Good to add more insight to the history of these things. :thumbsup

 

[Apollo]

Welcome to the Board Nick and thanks so much for setting the record straight!

 

[NickMaley]

You are replying to 4 year old posts, but man, that info is awesome.

Yes I know these posts are old, but they still come up on internet searches and so I chose to respond. thoseYodaGuys.com has taken over a year to build (between a 1000 other projects and activities). The postings on this page made it clear to me a long time back that there needed to be an expansion of what was available to fans on the subject. Anyway, that's one more project out of the way. You probably won't hear from me again for another decade :lol

 

[Trooper_trent]

Nick! Welcome to the RPF! Thank you so much for sharing this information, it's great to have you here. I've got one of your signed prints hanging in my home office that my dad picked up for me while in St. Maarten a few years ago. It's my prized possession.

 

[Son of Skywalker]

Added thoseYodaGuys.com to my bookmarks. Such a Great history lesson :thumbsup

 

[DaddyfromNaboo]

Great info, thank you for joining The RPF !
Makes all previous posts obsolete, in a good way!

Michael
RPF staff

 

[Apollo]

:lol Hopefully not! :lol

You probably won't hear from me again for another decade :lol

 

[itsalive]

I am floored that Nick is here!

I have a few images of the foam Yoda Wendy made on my other PC. I thought I posted them in this thread. That foam Yoda is so awesome. I wonder where it is now?

Nick I've bugged you before in the past via email. I wish I could nab more info about the head armature used to control Yoda. I have a few pics, but I still feel like what I have is not enough. It never is...

One of my ultimate goals is to replicate him as he appeared in ESB in CGI. This includes everything- from the Blissl to the armature under his head. I've been trying to make this work for a long time now. Hopefully one day I will succeed on this goal.

I hate to admit this. I created a cgi digital replica of your glasses to use on his face as ref to help me spot check him against an image I got of him wearing your glasses.

(EDIT) I can't seem to find the glasses version, but I managed to find the glasses. I added them in with a much older yoda sculpt attempt that still has the puppet head armature as a subobject in the scene. I save out a new file of the sculpt each time I alter it, so it's kinda hard to find the older versions of it that have these other objects in the scene.

 

[itsalive]

Here are a few pics of the foam Yoda Muppet Wendy made.

 

[NickMaley]

Re: What did Wendy Froud / Wendy Midener contribute to Yoda's creation and developmen

I hate to admit this. I created a cgi digital replica of your glasses to use on his face as ref to help me spot check him against an image I got of him wearing your glasses.

(EDIT) I can't seem to find the glasses version, but I managed to find the glasses. I added them in with a much older yoda sculpt attempt that still has the puppet head armature as a subobject in the scene.

Tip: The skull for the radio control version was similar to what you show. But the puppet Frank operated had no jaw. That is what gave him the chinless look. The r/c version has a more defined jawline. The glove puppet skin basically hung from the cheekbones.

 

[itsalive]

Re: What did Wendy Froud / Wendy Midener contribute to Yoda's creation and developmen

Tip: The skull for the radio control version was similar to what you show. But the puppet Frank operated had no jaw. That is what gave him the chinless look. The r/c version has a more defined jawline. The glove puppet skin basically hung from the cheekbones.

Thanks for the info about the Chin. I had no clue.


I have a video with Mr. Freeborn messing around with the one of the armatures eyes. He uses his finger to slide a clear form over the top part of the eye. I'm guessing this clear shell is used to control the upper eyelid movement, but it confuses me because I thought the eyes had a clear cover over them in the film so they could move around underneath this clear shell without disturbing/moving the latex eyelids.



My biggest issue in regards to replicating the armature is related to a lack of reference images and more in-depth information.

It looks like the eyes are attached to a bar with system that allows the puppeteer to use a single finger to slide the bar up, down, left, and right, to move the eyes around.

I have no idea how the eyelids would be triggered/controlled, what kind of set up is used with those three holes on the top of the armatures head to move the eyebrows and the bridge of the nose around, or what that pink colored tape looking stuff is for.