Various OT lightsaber parts (T-track price drop)

thd9791

Master Member
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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

I just noticed this this afternoon. I Like the clean sharp look though. Regardless, I happen to find Roy's to be...a little more accurate. This is me looking at MOM and Archive photos with a gut reaction. Anyways, Roy are these extruded too?
 

roygilsing

Sr Member
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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Hi thd9791, yes the profile is extruded and measures 13.5 x 7.1 mm with less than 0.1 tolerance.


Roy
 

GINO

Sr Member
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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Real nice-looking T-track. I've always found Gino's T-track to be too thin.
Ok since I was dragged into this and my stuff is being included in comparisons, I feel this needs to be said.

I think it's great that there are t-track alternatives especially cheaper ones.
And roygilsing I don't want this post to come off as putting down your stuff. But when comparisons come up that include my stuff or untrue statements are made such as the one quoted here I'm going to have to chime in and set the record straight.

But as far as accuracy goes, mine is the only one in that comparison shot that has the actual true screen-accurate profile.
My track was created from measurements taken from actual screen-used t-track as opposed to using screen shots etc for the basis of the replica.
I think the comp photo shows the differences quite clearly.

I think this new stuff is pretty close, definitely closer than marv's or blastech, but to say it is perfectly screen accurate would be a generalization.



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Darth Lars

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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

But when comparisons come up that include my stuff or untrue statements are made such as the one quoted here I'm going to have to chime in and set the record straight.
Technically, I expressed my personal opinion. I did not make a statement that could be true or untrue.

I am not 100% sure that this track is perfect to my own mind's view of the real track but so far I find it to be a good candidate. Yesterday, I ordered only a single set of track so that I could examine it closer in person before I choose to replace the track on my lightsabers and blasters. Maybe the top of the fin is too thick, in which case I would sand it thinner. I could modify the track more to my liking, which I wouldn't be able with yours ... because your track is too thin for me.

I think this new stuff is pretty close, definitely closer than marv's or blastech, but to say it is perfectly screen accurate would be a generalization.
Saying that your T-track would be perfectly accurate is also a generalization. Perfection is theoretically impossible.
Even if you have taken measurements of some original T-track, your design is still an interpretation, just that you have scaled down the level of interpolation to fractions of a millimetre.
It is the nature of thermoplastic that it shrinks and warps somewhat as it cools after moulding or extrusion, and that means that there are tiny differences from track to track and sometimes even from different spots on the same track.

After several years, someone else started a competing product at a quality level approaching yours. That is something that happens in business that you just have to accept. I think it would be more productive of you to improve the attractiveness of your own product than to talk down other people's products and the people who are interested in them.
 
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GINO

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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Technically, I expressed my personal opinion. I did not make a statement that could be true or untrue.

Saying that your T-track would be perfectly accurate is also a generalization. Perfection is theoretically impossible.
Even if you have taken measurements of some original T-track, your design is still an interpretation, just that you have scaled down the level of interpolation to fractions of a millimetre.
It is the nature of thermoplastic that it shrinks and warps somewhat as it cools after moulding or extrusion, and that means that there are tiny differences from track to track and sometimes even from different spots on the same track.
What I'm saying is that if you laid my track down next to the real deal you couldn't tell which was which even with calipers.
You can only get that kind of accuracy from taking measurements from screen-used stuff. Hardly from photographs.

After several years, someone else started a competing product at a quality level approaching yours. That is something that happens in business that you just have to accept. I think it would be more productive of you to improve the attractiveness of your own product than to talk down other people's products and the people who are interested in them.
There is nothing on my product to improve, and I'm sorry you interpret my clarifying of the facts to be talking down to other people's stuff. That is not my intent.
If I don't clear the air here and now, that's how misinformation gets spread.

I don't mind a competing product. I don't and haven't minded any of the others over the years as well. What I do take issue with the muddying of the waters that would lead people to believe that this new track is more accurate or even as accurate as mine when it factually is not.

In fact, many times I have referred people who didn't want to spend the extra money for my t-track or didn't care that much about hardcore screen accuracy to people like marv.
I would have no problem referring those people to roygilsing as well.
The people who buy my stuff usually know what they are getting in advance so I don't see it as a competing product.



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NeoRutty

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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Im just stoked all these options exist. I've put blastech on my scratch built, I've put Gino's on my ANH luke... and now as I put together an ROTJ MOM Vader, I'll likely pick up Roy's...

I've got Marv's on an old flash where I wanted to just incorporate styles from various sabers...

It's ludicrious to put down one over another... it's all good. I've got this growing collection, and it seems every guy putting out parts is getting represented.

Further more, I'm looking forward to what Roy has coming down the line. The kobold clip is great cuz it cost me a stupid enough to get my last parks, and I really didn't want to pay that again for the ESB I have coming up.
 

thd9791

Master Member
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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Hear Hear!

(My apologies if my comment stirred the pot. Like I noted, that's just my gut/first impression. Obviously I haven't handled the real thing, but I still feel free to express my opinion, I don't have facts)

On that note, does anyone know if this track was cast/replicated for floor prop replacements in later years, or did they have a solid stock to use for replacements up until ROTJ?
 

roygilsing

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Various OT lightsaber parts

Hello GINO, pleasure to meet you. Thanks for your response, I was expecting your reaction and wasn't surprised about what you wrote.

You claim to have the only perfectly accurate T-track, which is a very bold statement. I have a few remarks about your claim:

First of all, I wonder why you claim to have (had) access to actual screen used T-profile but don't explain which prop it was, where is was and how you did it. Why would anybody take your word for it? If you make claims like that why don't you back it up with some evidence? I would. I actually describe in detail my process, which is basically what we all do here on this forum. I can't claim to have had access to the real props, because I haven't, but as you can see in my post I did use images from the archive and shown in this blog: http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2014/01/30/exclusive-237-lostunpublished-historic-star-wars-and-indiana-jones-movie-prop-photos-from-the-lucasfim-archives-from-19961997/
As you notice there are three images of the Luke ESB saber and somebody is measuring a track with a caliper. With some Photoshop enhancing and smart deducing the values can be read. And thus the width is a given.

Second is related to the interpretation of the shape of the section of the profile. In order to replicate the T shape, at some point in time, some form of interpretation MUST take place. ONLY measuring width and height doesn't give you the proper shape of the profile. What about the truncated rib? What about the radius on the base? This comes down to copying it in CAD software at some point, and this is done by people with eyes and hands. YOU have done this and I have done this. There is no such thing as a 'perfect replica', because we are not perfect human beings.

Then there is the imperfections and production related tolerances that Darth Lars is mentioning.

Fourth and last is most important of all, and is the whole ESSENCE of the RPF. It is about the passion and pleasure of building replicas. It is about fantasy and fun. It is an emotional process, with people enjoying their hobbies. It is not a cold, clinical thing. Not a science, not a single truth. That is why every person has a different point of view on what is right and what is perfect. And they are ALL right and ALL perfect. This is what I like a lot and even though I'm an engineer, it's this softer side that makes me want to do all this.

I hope I didn't offend you, so let's just move on and do what we all like doing; build beautiful things.

Roy
 

GINO

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

You claim to have the only perfectly accurate T-track, which is a very bold statement. I have a few remarks about your claim:
I don't think of it as bold. It's just factual.



First of all, I wonder why you claim to have (had) access to actual screen used T-profile but don't explain which prop it was, where is was and how you did it. Why would anybody take your word for it? If you make claims like that why don't you back it up with some evidence?
Because I'm not always at liberty to disclose such things.
No one HAS to take my word for it. In fact I would encourage anyone who doubts my credibility to NOT buy from me.
The stuff I have is meant for people who have to have the most accurate and know and trust me and my body of work.



I can't claim to have had access to the real props, because I haven't, but as you can see in my post I did use images from the archive and shown in this blog: http://www.originalprop.com/blog/2014/01/30/exclusive-237-lostunpublished-historic-star-wars-and-indiana-jones-movie-prop-photos-from-the-lucasfim-archives-from-19961997/
As you notice there are three images of the Luke ESB saber and somebody is measuring a track with a caliper. With some Photoshop enhancing and smart deducing the values can be read. And thus the width is a given.
Yes, but I have and on many occasions. And while mine is based on using actual measurements and scans, yours is based on extrapolating/deducing data from photographs.
And we all know when you go try to reverse engineer from photos there is quite a bit of interpretation and human error that enters the equation.
All you have to do is look at the comparison you posted of my t-track next to yours and you can see the errors in yours quite easily.



Second is related to the interpretation of the shape of the section of the profile. In order to replicate the T shape, at some point in time, some form of interpretation MUST take place. ONLY measuring width and height doesn't give you the proper shape of the profile.
Who said only the width and height was measured?? Measurements were taken as well as actual scan data and my profile was created from that.



There is no such thing as a 'perfect replica', because we are not perfect human beings.
I see people in the prop world using this excuse to create a false sense of equality. "Nothing is perfect so both of our imperfect replicas are equal on some level."
This is simply untrue. Accuracy can me measured and quantified and mine is indistinguishable from the real stuff whether you judge by eye or caliper.
That is about as 'perfect' as one can hope for.



Fourth and last is most important of all, and is the whole ESSENCE of the RPF. It is about the passion and pleasure of building replicas. It is about fantasy and fun. It is an emotional process, with people enjoying their hobbies.
Agreed. So you can understand why I take issue when someone comes along and makes untrue claims about something I've made or try to create a false equivalency in order to compete for sales.



It is not a cold, clinical thing. Not a science, not a single truth. That is why every person has a different point of view on what is right and what is perfect. And they are ALL right and ALL perfect.
I fundamentally disagree with all of this. Accuracy can be measured and quantified. And there is truth in accuracy.
People's personal preference for accurate vs idealized is an entirely different thing and that is not what is being discussed here.



I hope I didn't offend you, so let's just move on and do what we all like doing; build beautiful things.
Yeah, pretty offended. Calling my credibility into question as well as fostering the misconception that your product is as screen accurate as mine when factually it is not pretty much does the trick.

I've had harmony with the other t-track makers because none of them ever tried to say that their stuff was more accurate than mine when it wasn't. They catered to a different group of prop collectors who were fine to sacrifice a certain amount of accuracy for a cheaper cost. Nothing wrong with that and because of that I very often refer people to them who come to me who want t-track but don't have to have the best of the best or want a cheaper alternative.

But it seems you (or a couple of your customers) have chosen to attempt to muddy the waters when it comes to the differences between what you have to offer vs. me.
That's what I take issue with.



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roygilsing

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Well, I apologize for giving you the idea that I was trying to bring your credibility into question. I am not. And the fact that you have access to the archives and make scans of the original props is something I can only envy you for. I also never tried to claim a MORE accurate profile than yours or anybody else's. That is not for me to decide. It's just that I have used all my skills to create what is good for myself. And I am myself very pleased with that result. It is unfortunate that you are not at liberty to disclose some more information on the process, since it would be very interesting indeed.
Again, my apologies for offending you.


Roy

www.wannawanga.com
 

matty matt

Sr Member
Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Thank you for making this stuff available Roy. Everything looks great and I've ordered a set of T track for my ESB Graflex.
 

forcesensitive

Active Member
Various OT lightsaber parts

Well, I apologize for giving you the idea that I was trying to bring your credibility into question. I am not. And the fact that you have access to the archives and make scans of the original props is something I can only envy you for. I also never tried to claim a MORE accurate profile than yours or anybody else's. That is not for me to decide. It's just that I have used all my skills to create what is good for myself. And I am myself very pleased with that result. It is unfortunate that you are not at liberty to disclose some more information on the process, since it would be very interesting indeed.
Again, my apologies for offending you.


Roy

www.wannawanga.com
...nevermind
 
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Sym-Cha

Master Member
Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

On that note, does anyone know if this track was cast/replicated for floor prop replacements in later years, or did they have a solid stock to use for replacements up until ROTJ?
Now this is a rather interesting question ... since I haven't found any real vintage T-track ever since I started looking for it ... besides the nice metal one found by pfillery from downunder that alas also had the wrong profile . . . so does anyone know? . . . Was there an abundance of stock T-track available between 1976 and 1983 for the propguys to work with?

Chaim
 

roygilsing

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Does your T-Tracks come with a strip for attaching it?
Hi Andymac84,
No, they don't. The tracks are best glued with an epoxy adhesive. Double sided tape is maybe an option, but when I tried it didn't stick well to the Graflex. Or maybe it just wasn't the proper tape.


Roy

www.wannawanga.com
 

PoopaPapaPalps

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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Now this is a rather interesting question ... since I haven't found any real vintage T-track ever since I started looking for it ... besides the nice metal one found by pfillery from downunder that alas also had the wrong profile . . . so does anyone know? . . . Was there an abundance of stock T-track available between 1976 and 1983 for the propguys to work with?

Chaim

Considering someone was selling them by the spool on the Junkyard before the overhaul (I don't remember if they were correct but they sure looked the part), I'm sure the prop guys had easier access to them than we have now.
 

Darth Lars

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Re: Various OT lightsaber parts

Was there an abundance of stock T-track available between 1976 and 1983 for the propguys to work with?
I searched in some old threads and found:
One of the original prop guys from Bapty confirmed that the T-track was plastic and bent with a heat gun. He also mentioned that they ran out of black at one point and used brown t-track painted black on some of the guns. The black paint did not stick well.
I thought that there was also a post from moffeaton about seeing resin-cast T-track on a prop from ROTJ, but I can't find it. I might have remembered wrong.
Of course, T-tracks were moulded in on some "stunt" E-11's used in ESB who were moulded whole and cast in resin as one piece.
 
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