Vader Helmet Opinions Sought

[Too Much Garlic]

We will probably get to the bottom of this once Kenny sees the helmet in person next week and talks through the details. He said he would try and figure out who did this sculpt, though the one person who would know for sure would be Fred Hole, the production designer on ROTJ, passed on in February. One name that was mooted was Brian Archer.

All these people should get in contact with Brian Muir, the sculptor of Vader and the trooper armor and several of the droids. Would be interesting the info that could come out of that.

Don't take things as bad as they may sound. It's just caused by many years of other people trying to BS and scam others into thinking that what they had was authentic and selling for a premium. It has created a rough tone and an immediate doubt about new discoveries. Especially when there seems to be some issues with the shapes and similarities... and yeah, we can get hung up on all the things that doesn't match and forget all the things that does... and vice-versa.

If you feel the truth is on your side... don't stop sharing or researching things. You say the intent of the owner is pure. Then... let's get to the bottom of this mystery helmet and talking to the guys who made the stuff for the movies is definitely a right path to choose.

Go up to the first few pages of this thread and note the crack at the top of that crown piece. It has broken off the rest of the crown in a completely concentric circle. My question to you is: if that were part of a fiberglass casting meaning all that was one fiberglass piece, and you dropped it on the floor, what's the chances that the crown would break along that perfect line all the way around that little crown????

http://www.therpf.com/f9/broken-iron-man-faceplate-111895/
I'm just saying... accidents happen that cannot easily be explained.

 

[vaderdarth]

Could someone do some profile shots of an ESB/ROTJ helmet casting showing vader's left cheek side. Then show his helmet and finally the actual reveal from the same side. I'd be curious to see al the changes that have taken place just from that one side. That might illustrate what I mean about several millimeters change. I'm referring to the line of the cheek top versus the tusk tubes in that statement I made. It would be interesting to just see them side by side. Two different screen helmets versus this new helmet.

Dave

 

[lambotour]

LeAnge, you guys have a very interesting helmet there. What it is and where it came from is still up in the air, but it's definitely different.

My post is strictly pointing out a few areas of concern that I see in that helmet compared with the original reveal and some fan interpretations. I'm sure more answers will come when you meet up with Mr Clarke, but if you could point out these discrepancies to him and, if he can, explain why they would have been done in the first place.

He's the original reveal side shot alongwith the best angle I could find of the helmet you posted. I see a lot of differences between the two and the differences I see are not easily modded from one to the next. The whole amount of facial protrusion from the original reveal is different from this helmet. It would be nearly impossible to extend the face out that much on your cast and have it match the original. That would require a completely new resculpt. The tubes do not match, the eyebrows do not match, the cheeks do not match, the side mouth wall does not match, the forehead length does not match. Basically from a side view, there are too many differences, in my opinion, to say that this helmet fathered the original reveal. It doesn't add up.

Now taking the best side shot of a fan interpretation of the reveal and I see similarities between the two. Other than the eyes, which could be modded to give the desired effect, the faceplates do have more in common.

Moving onto the right side of the faceplate. This helmet has a feature that is found on fan made helmets, but is not on the original reveal. The shape of the cheek as it comes towards the nose is sharp and missing the small angled step. That angled step in a staple of the OT faceplates. The ROTJ faceplates were painted in a way that it looks like it does in the helmet you guys have, but in reality, that angled step is still there and wasn't altered. Here's a shot of the original reveal, the helmet you show and some fan made helmets that have the same look. I can't see someone sculpting the helmet this way, then going back and adding a feature that is already on an original faceplate. That does not make sense to me.

Original:

Fan made:

Your helmet:

The mouth. This is one of the more telling features in my mind. The teeth configuration on the helmet you show is different than on the original reveal. The length on of one particular tooth is different from the original.

The things I've pointed out are my own observations on this piece. I do see a few more, but I don't think it's necessary to get into every single issue. I certainly do not believe that these changes are easily modded from one faceplate to the other. What I see are two different structural faceplates that share only a few details, some of which are not exclusive to only the original reveal, but found on fan mades as well. This helmet would have been cast about 8 years after ROTJ. This helmet could very well be the resculpt that fathered the fan mades of the ROTJ reveal, but IMO it did not father the original ROTJ reveal.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Now THAT is a much better photo comparison. Thanks Pete.

 

[KaanE]

Exactly, thank you very much for the pics. Now I know what it's, or at least, what it looks like.

 

[vaderdarth]

Perfect comparison. Very telling.

 

[LeAngeSolitaire]

Thanks for those Lambotour, they are precisely the sort of pics I asked Mac for originally.

I can now see precisely the sort of differences that have been mentioned and I admit they are there but at the same time, I can also see things which very alike too. They are certainly puzzling and raise some questions which will be put to Mr Clarke. Be that as it may, he is adamant this was a product of one of his production moulds so lots of things do not gel. The very fact that they were still kicking about Shepperton in 1990 is puzzling enough and one of the first things that bugged me. I am sure this is from a production mould as Mr Clarke says, but more than ever, I am intrigued by what it is, whether it was an early rejected sculpt or a mockup or an intermediate 'work-in-progress'.

Thank you so much!

 

[CSMacLaren]

I'm glad Lambo's analysis solidly confirm my previous analysis.

Thanks for those Lambotour, they are precisely the sort of pics I asked Mac for originally.

You should really lose the attitude. You shouldn't put the burden of proof on people after making claims and daring people for accusations of lying. If you're going to make a claim, you have to personally back that claim up.

I was going out of my way to try to help you. All that Photoshop analysis takes time to do, and was done out of a gesture of friendship and community building. It would have been nice for you, at least, to return the courtesy of trying to have the mask rephotographed to provide a better basis of comparison as I had asked.

Many of us don't have great images of the LFL reveal apart from the limited images found on Flickr or Google which were insufficient to make a proper overlay comparison. You could have come half-way.

What you could not accept with my analysis, I'm glad you're able to accept it from another source. Our goal, as a community, is to foster and environment of open discussion, learning and enjoyment.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Just out of curiosity, LeAnge, what similarities do you see?

 

[LeAngeSolitaire]

I just wanted to post an email I received from the owner of the Vader:

"Hi, I just wanted to take a few minutes out to thank all of you who have contributed to the mystery of the Vader head that's in my possession. I never really expected for it to take off in the way that it did on the RPF, with much heated discussion I hear. All that strife and fuss over some dusty old costume piece that, for the most part, has sat forgotten in my garage for years.

Mac, although I don't know who you are, I have been told that you went out of your way to do a photoshop comparison for LeAnge. I'm sure that he is as appreciative of this as I am - and I know that he did request me to take further photographs for you, but I simply have not been available to do so due to work. You have my apologies if my lack of apparent co-operation has rubbed you up the wrong way, it's just that for the most part I have been out of reach as LeAnge will atest.

Lambotour, again I do not know you, but like I do with Mac, I extend a hand of thanks in gratitude for your recent work on this too.

To everyone else who contributed, thank you for trying to help out a stranger.

At the end of the day, I feel that LeAnge was trying to do his best by me. He knew that one day I would be working on this Vader project and he didn't want me to unwittingly tinker with something that could well have been of some historical importance, I do understand where he was coming from. His motives and intentions were well placed, but whatever the deal is with it, it would make little difference to me as he knows full well. Next week he has arranged for me to take the Vader head in question to Mr. Clarke and with luck, some clarification on the matter will come to light. LeAnge really need not have gone to all this trouble, especially as he is going out of his way to get to the bottom of what exactly this head is, along with the fine folk at the RPF.

Best wishes to you all."

 

[voice in the crowd]

The very fact that they were still kicking about Shepperton in 1990 is puzzling enough and one of the first things that bugged me. I am sure this is from a production mould as Mr Clarke says, but more than ever, I am intrigued by what it is, whether it was an early rejected sculpt or a mockup or an intermediate 'work-in-progress'.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but one thing I do not understand is why any Vader stuff would be at Shepperton. All the Star Wars productions took place at Elstree?

I for one am looking forward to the next part of this story when you speak to Kenny Clarke :thumbsup

Hope to hear more soon,

Cheers Chris

 

[LeAngeSolitaire]

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but one thing I do not understand is why any Vader stuff would be at Shepperton. All the Star Wars productions took place at Elstree?

I for one am looking forward to the next part of this story when you speak to Kenny Clarke :thumbsup

Hope to hear more soon,

Cheers Chris

I can't be sure but I believe Mr Clarke said he was based at Shepperton and was for the best part of his career.

 

[OldKen]

Don't you know? AA has the original Vader molds too!

Accept no substitutes!!! :lol

:angel

 

[LeAngeSolitaire]

Don't you know? AA has the original Vader molds too!

Accept no substitutes!!! :lol

:angel

Let's not go there :lol

 

[OldKen]

Let's not go there :lol

Here comes my first infraction ever. :sleep

In the words of Larry the cable guy: I don't care who yo are that's funny right der.... I tell you what.

Sorry I'm in pigeon forge tn. Right now... Seems relevant on my end. :rolleyes

 

[CSMacLaren]

Very kind words from what sounds like a very kind man. :thumbsup

 

[jme3]

On the contrary, I would absolutely LOVE to hear from anyone who has had a hand in the creation of the original archive ROTJ Vader reveal...

My history on the rpf goes back to the year 2000 when the "Xanax" reveal saga was in full swing. It was this Xanax replica that was the catalyst for what became several incarnations of active projects I have been involved with to create the ultimate ROTJ Vader reveal replica. Ten-plus years and counting, and despite all those active projects and a plethora of hi-res photos that have found their way onto my hard drive over the years, I still have not struck paydirt, and no one else has either. Those same ten years have produced any number of eureka moments in prop-dom from the total deciphering of the Obi-Wan saber and Luke's macrobinoculars to the discovery of the original "move along" ANH trooper helmet and any number of other finds. But the total deciphering of the ROTJ Vader reveal is still out of reach. So, whatever secrets you have under your sleeve and those that your behind-the-scenes contacts can reveal, I'm all ears...

So Kenny Clarke's certainty that this is from one of his production moulds worth nothing to you?

Nice to know you would discount so quickly the opinion of the guy who moulded and cast these things. :rolleyes

 

[LeAngeSolitaire]

On the contrary, I would absolutely LOVE to hear from anyone who has had a hand in the creation of the original archive ROTJ Vader reveal...

My history on the rpf goes back to the year 2000 when the "Xanax" reveal saga was in full swing. It was this Xanax replica that was the catalyst for what became several incarnations of active projects I have been involved with to create the ultimate ROTJ Vader reveal replica. Ten-plus years and counting, and despite all those active projects and a plethora of hi-res photos that have found their way onto my hard drive over the years, I still have not struck paydirt, and no one else has either. Those same ten years have produced any number of eureka moments in prop-dom from the total deciphering of the Obi-Wan saber and Luke's macrobinoculars to the discovery of the original "move along" ANH trooper helmet and any number of other finds. But the total deciphering of the ROTJ Vader reveal is still out of reach. So, whatever secrets you have under your sleeve and those that your behind-the-scenes contacts can reveal, I'm all ears...

I just hope Kenny's input will be accorded the consideration it warrants.

In a couple of sentences, what was the 'Xanax' saga? I imagine it had nothing to do with prescription diet drugs.

 

[jme3]

I just hope Kenny's input will be accorded the consideration it warrants.

In a couple of sentences, what was the 'Xanax' saga? I imagine it had nothing to do with prescription diet drugs.

No, Xanax wasn't a prescription... At least not of the medical variety... :lol

Some captures from the early days... :

 

[SithLord]

Why does the RPF log people out so quickly? This is the second time I spent a long time writing a detailed reply and it logs me out! What is the point?

Then it gives a message like this:

Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

Please push the back button and reload the previous window.


Then I lost my second attempt at posting, so what is the point?

:angry


It is just a DP style derived heavily modded mask and helmet made to look like a ROTJ reveal and has no relationship to a production helmet.

The DP was around since 77 and versions of it popped up around the early 90s probably earlier as well so it was available to use as a template.

Muir would be a better judge than Clarke. Muir sculpted it and has seen many castings over the years claimed to be original but were not. His friend worked on ROTJ and gave Brian a production ROTJ helmet so I consider his word the final one.