Vader Helmet Opinions Sought

[CSMacLaren]

Actually, opinions that are supported by material that has relevance to my question would be great. An overlay with a DS lid does not really count since it is not the lid it is should be compared with. However, the new pics of the exhibition lid are really great, so thank you!

Then you're going to have to work halfway on this. Find an exhibit piece that you want to compare against, and keep photographing it until you get as close to the same camera distance and angle as possible. I will help do overlay analysis. Your original photo line-up didn't give me much to work with, and as I'm not an ROTJ Reveal fan, I don't keep pics of it in my collection, so it was hard finding an overlay match.

However, at the very least, the Reveal mask in question should at least overlay properly over an accurate casting of Vader because the Reveal was built from a production Vader mask; they did not resculpt the Reveal from scratch. Any Reveal should survive a very basic overlay test.

 

[CSMacLaren]

It would be interesting to see the same DS comparison with the expo lid pic HaanE posted above.

I don't agree with you about the details. The devil is in the details I think :love

Please just keep an open mind. I realize it's not easy to have your hopes up and then have some people say the hopes were not accurate. No one here is trying to be malicious. If this were indeed tied with the production, it's a win for the community.

Here is a control test based between the 20th Century and the ROTJ. This does not take into account subtle variances from casting to casting. I approximated the camera distance as best I could.

Here's my photo that I'm using for comparison. People are invited to do their own overlay analysis.

Now let's begin the comparison.

As you can see, it's a fairly decent match. The subtle features line up quite well.

 

[KaanE]

There are a lot of details that match the original helmet like the 3 thin corrugated strips at the front of the faceplate (which in the cast are corrugated and even placed perfectly! With the central one being off), the placement of the cut at the tubes, the eyebrows, etc, etc. It's clearly seen that some work has been made, but there are so many details that match... Which are impossible to match without it being a cast of the original, and even less with it being from the last 80s/early 90s. At that time, how many pics could you find of the reveal to see, for example, the corrugated strips?

 

[CSMacLaren]

There are a lot of details that match the original helmet like the 3 thin corrugated strips at the front of the faceplate (which in the cast are corrugated and even placed perfectly! With the central one being off), the placement of the cut at the tubes, the eyebrows, etc, etc. It's clearly seen that some work has been made, but there are so many details that match... Which are impossible to match without it being a cast of the original, and even less with it being from the last 80s/early 90s. At that time, how many pics could you find of the reveal to see, for example, the corrugated strips?

Try to rephotograph the Reveal mask at about 2 to 2.5 feet distance. Let's do an overlay. If they are placed perfectly then hopefully we can verify this with some overlay analysis. We're here to help you.

Also, try to approximate this angle and distance:

 

[KaanE]

Mmmmm... Mac, I'm not the creator of the thread, I do not have access to the mask :lol

 

[CSMacLaren]

Ah, true, that. I haven't had my coffee yet! :lol

 

[LeAngeSolitaire]

Neither do I, but I shall ask the owner of the head to take some more pics. I can see a lot of tiny little details that match up though: the grated sections (which you can see in my hi-res pics) match up perfectly. This level of detail is next to impossible, especially if it is a twenty year old fan sculpt. Even the odd contours in the mounting ring/forehead transition, assymetry and the distinctive slight wobble in the left brow is there. Overlaying can be tricky as I know in the past that fisheyeing, depth of field/perspective distortion can mean that even two pics of the same object can look different on overlaying. I have overlayed sections and they do match.

Here's a few high res pics for further study.

 

[KaanE]

Well, I've been looking at the pics. There are a lot of details that match with the original Reveal, but there are some others that dont. I cant understand why. And the details that match could not be fanmade at the 80s, I'm sure at 99%. So, what happens with that mask? Maybe it's a prototype? Maybe they modified the the original reveal?

For example, the side tubes are too long, and the edges too sharp, but on the other hand, the small details like the nose holes and steps, and a few other things match perfectly? Someone can explain me what happens?

 

[LeAngeSolitaire]

That is what I am very puzzled about. If this came from the original moulds, then why weren't the moulds with Lucas? Why were they still kicking around a fabricator's workshop in Shepperton (I confirmed it was Shepperton) in 1989/90?

Ignore the crap at the top, which was where the original caster attached the greeblies etc for his own attempt at finishing it, before it passed into the hands of my friend who removed it all, becuase it looked rubbish.

One theory which has been discussed privately is that this is an original pull from the moulds which were subsequently modified for the screen used ROTJ reveal. In short, this is possibly the starting point for the ROTJ reveal. Conjecture at the moment but plausible. It may have even been an early sculpt that had been forgotten which is why Lucas abandoned it.

 

[CSMacLaren]

As mentioned before, there are 50+ makes of Vader that, ultimately, descended from the original. So did this Reveal have a basis on the original? Yes it's very likely, but the question is: how far removed might it be?

We cannot say that all these fan-descended castings emerged only a few years ago. Some have been around a bit longer. It's possible with time, patience, diligence and perseverance to rework or modify castings in the fandom through studying accurate prop photos.

I notice that a lot of work has been done to replicate the tubes and the tube ends, for example. But the face is distorted - and the face is something that people can study for years from the perspective that it's a sculpture, and there are myriad subtleties that make it so marvelous - but one who doesn't see beyond the basic structures would have a hard time reproducing with complete accuracy.

Is your friend okay with taking some new photos at specific angles and distances?

 

[CSMacLaren]

It may have even been an early sculpt that had been forgotten which is why Lucas abandoned it.

Not sure what you mean by early sculpt. An early attempt? There is far too much rework to the face. Moreover, Vader was sculpted once - by Brian Muir - for ANH. Subsequent movies use castings based on that original.

 

[KaanE]

I would love to work making it more accurate if the owner wants to. I've actually saved the 380+ pics posted a few posts back... And looking the Mac build thread, it's like a chance to prove myself I can get it done...

 

[OldKen]

Now THIS is a very intriguing Vader thread!!!

Neat guys! Yeah some of the stuff is replicated too perfectly like the top of his forhead how it has the lump on the right side as we are looking at it up near the connector at the top.

Yet as Kaane shows there have definitely been some serious changes! Maybe it was the first try? Then they cast that and made some final changes?

Or the other way around?

Man this is a neat find! Like always I WANT TO KNOW MORE!

What's awesome here... there aren't any sides! This bugger is def an anomaly!

I'm assuming you have the rights to cast it? Sorry just stumbled upon this. Pretty exciting I really don't think a fan sculpted that face and the oddness near the connector etc. Yet doesn't fully match the screen used? Or was there more than one?

What if THIS is SA and the one that was supposed to be SU is not?

Wouldn't that be something?

Too cool.

 

[OldKen]

Not sure what you mean by early sculpt. An early attempt? There is far too much rework to the face. Moreover, Vader was sculpted once - by Brian Muir - for ANH. Subsequent movies use castings based on that original.

Could it have been possible that they made a few prototypes out of the ESB casting that became the ROTJ?

Maybe one was picked and this one wasn't?

I would love to see what you could do with this Mac! I know I would love a casting of it! After your last project I know you are more than qualified!

KaanE, Go for it man. Just keep the original the way it sits now! Make a casting of that and go to town on it brother! :thumbsup

But, again, would love to see mac have a go at a casting as well!

 

[OldKen]

Could it have been possible that they made a few prototypes out of the ESB casting that became the ROTJ?

Meaning a prototype for the reveal BTW. We all know that the back of the tubes etc weren't meant to be seen when Brian sculpted the ANH... maybe someone had a go at giving the back of the tubes some sort of different more appealing ending to them?

This is all shot in the dark stuff. I truly have no clue.

But am very intrigued to see what comes of this!

thumbsup

 

[KaanE]

KaanE, Go for it man. Just keep the original the way it sits now! Make a casting of that and go to town on it brother! :thumbsup

Again, I'm not the owner nor the creator of the thread :lol But I would love to get a cast to work with.

 

[voice in the crowd]

That is what I am very puzzled about. If this came from the original moulds, then why weren't the moulds with Lucas? Why were they still kicking around a fabricator's workshop in Shepperton (I confirmed it was Shepperton) in 1989/90?

I thought all the Vader's where made at Elstree?

There was bucket loads of stuff left from the Star Wars Trilogy left in the UK at Elstree during post production of the Trilogy. It would make no sense financially to ship everything over the US and moulds would have been made for promotional items after production was completed.

As time goes on it appears more and more employees took copies of items from the Trilogy.

If Lucas wanted moulds of the original props he could make his own as most of them especially from ESB and ROTJ went back to the US.

Interesting find :thumbsup

Cheers Chris

 

[JediCarl]

voice in the crowd, your new signature image is epic. :lol

:thumbsup

 

[CSMacLaren]

Could it have been possible that they made a few prototypes out of the ESB casting that became the ROTJ?

Maybe one was picked and this one wasn't?

I would love to see what you could do with this Mac! I know I would love a casting of it! After your last project I know you are more than qualified!

KaanE, Go for it man. Just keep the original the way it sits now! Make a casting of that and go to town on it brother! :thumbsup

But, again, would love to see mac have a go at a casting as well!

There are a bunch of things wrong with it, as I explained with Post #11. It's not just the Reveal aspects but rather something things wrong with the face - the cheeks, the whiskers, the nose, the nose bridge, the teeth, the mouth, and the neck has been cut. I wish the rework to this face were obvious to everyone, but I do feel that if you've studied accurate castings, then modifications of this nature will stand out like an eyesore.

When you examine ESB stunt and ROTJ screenused and the tour ROTJ Reveal, you'll notice that other than some cleanup, there was no major reworking of the face. It stands to reason therefore that Lucas wanted the artistic intrinsics of the original Vader's face preserved in ESB and ROTJ as much as possible, without any re-interpretation or re-imagining by artists that came after Brian Muir.

Why, then, would Lucas a mask that has been so cut up, oversanded and warped to then be molded - if not to produce other masks then for archival purposes?

The prototypes would have at least have been accurate facial features to the original. The facial features have been far too reworked for someone to confirm its direct provenance to a production piece. I don't mean to be mean, but I see the eyes being similar to one or two fanmades.

OldKen, sorry, I'm really not a big fan of the Reveal. I don't like these side metallic neck lugs that costumers are so fond of adding to their costumes while trooping - it makes them look like Frankenvaders, to be honest, and the look is not screen-accurate. However, I'll be working on an ESB and ROTJ at some point, and I imagine the question will come up. I'll never do a full Reveal. But I may make a starting foundation mask for one.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Meaning a prototype for the reveal BTW. We all know that the back of the tubes etc weren't meant to be seen when Brian sculpted the ANH... maybe someone had a go at giving the back of the tubes some sort of different more appealing ending to them?

This is all shot in the dark stuff. I truly have no clue.

But am very intrigued to see what comes of this!

thumbsup

Well, on the Reveal pics taken at the SW exhibits, I noticed that three of the four tubes ended really, really flat. That is not the way it was on the original. It's a feature exclusive to the Reveal. Interestingly, this mask reproduces that, but everything else is all wrong about it. An observant fan could have made such mods.