Jamanticus
Well-Known Member
Fair point.
Vader Helmet Opinions Sought
- Thread starter LeAngeSolitaire
- Start date
vaderdarth
Master Member
Ghost Host is a fiberglass expert. Why don't you get a second opinion about that little crack on the crown of the original versus a helmet with the crown moulded in the mask(solid fiberglass). A craftsman can recognize certain details in the overall form of the helmet itself......but knowing that he was the one who laid it up would be difficult at best. I have seen this style of fiberglass layups from about 5 different guys. They all look very very similar. Many fan helmets have this layup.
Don't be offended by the words: Fan Helmet. Just about all the fan helmets have a shared lineage with a screen helmet. It's just that they are way way down the evolutionary ladder. Your guy may see details he knows are on a screen helmet.
Perhaps you can show one such detail that he is sure is only on his work??? If it's on his casting, but not found on any other fan helmet, you might have a credible argument. I will need to see it on both this casting and the screen helmet in order to validate in my own mind. Pick something that is identical, not just similar.
Don't be offended by the words: Fan Helmet. Just about all the fan helmets have a shared lineage with a screen helmet. It's just that they are way way down the evolutionary ladder. Your guy may see details he knows are on a screen helmet.
Perhaps you can show one such detail that he is sure is only on his work??? If it's on his casting, but not found on any other fan helmet, you might have a credible argument. I will need to see it on both this casting and the screen helmet in order to validate in my own mind. Pick something that is identical, not just similar.
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
There is a triangular plane on Vader's inner left eyesocket/nose bridge. This was referenced in one of the pics on page 2 or 3. This was something that they both share and was something that Kenny was surprised we picked up on as it is not easy to see if it's not pointed out.
Ghost Host
Sr Member
Woa, woa... I love you Dave, but please don't bring me into this too deep. I'm not looking for a fight... I hope it is what the owner says. I do not know enough about the ROTJ reveal, other than the pics I've studied over time. I'm just casually posting my observations.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Well actually, it's only a point about that concentric crack around the actual reveal. Go up to the first few pages of this thread and note the crack at the top of that crown piece. It has broken off the rest of the crown in a completely concentric circle. My question to you is: if that were part of a fiberglass casting meaning all that was one fiberglass piece, and you dropped it on the floor, what's the chances that the crown would break along that perfect line all the way around that little crown????
The casting being shown: shows that it's all one piece. But on the screen helmet, it's obviously not a single piece, but added to a finished fiberglass faceplate and finished with bondo.....hence the crack.
The casting being shown: shows that it's all one piece. But on the screen helmet, it's obviously not a single piece, but added to a finished fiberglass faceplate and finished with bondo.....hence the crack.
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
Or the other possibility is that the casting was done in one piece but lacked strength in that area and had a smear of bondo put it to give a little bit extra resilience during the finishing process.
Ghost Host
Sr Member
Well, if you mean that little line towards the top of the crown going most of the way around on the screen used mask... it is highly unlikely that that mask (including the crown) is one solid piece of fiberglass. I've never seen fiberglass crack so uniformly.
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
Are you sure it's gone all the way through though and not just the bondo that's cracked? Looking at the pics I thought it was just the bondo that's cracked. This is definitely something that needs to be put to Kenny. :thumbsup
vaderdarth
Master Member
Even the bondo couldn't crack unless the entire top section moved away from the bottom section. Solid fiberglass just won't do that if it breaks.
Your casting is one solid piece of fiberglass and therefore cannot become what you see on that screen helmet.......unless someone cut the top part completely off and repositioned it back on top of where they just removed it from.
Doesn't seem logical to me. I know it can be done, I just don't know why it would be.
Your casting is one solid piece of fiberglass and therefore cannot become what you see on that screen helmet.......unless someone cut the top part completely off and repositioned it back on top of where they just removed it from.
Doesn't seem logical to me. I know it can be done, I just don't know why it would be.
vaderdarth
Master Member
I've been studying other fan owned helmets and that little triangle you are pointing out shows up on other helmets. So it's not exclusive. That was what I was talking about earlier. Yes it was on your helmet, yes it was on the screen reveal helmet.......but it's not exclusive to those two.
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
Other Vader or other Reveal Vaders? And when were these helmets made? If they were after the screen used one went on show, that would make sense as you say, details can be added which is why I am reluctant to start talking about these details until I have Kenny's permission to do so. Thus I am only pointing out something that has already been discussed. Remember, this helmet was cast up twenty years ago before the screen used was shown to the public.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Regardless, even that is not 100% proof it's not what he says it is.
Ghost Host
Sr Member
I am just reporting what I was asked to look at. All I can say is that the screen mask looks to have some kind of plate or add-on, on top, that was blended off with something like bondo (creating the crown), ...and that plate is now cracked near where it was blended off.
loose
loose
vaderdarth
Master Member
Several fan helmets were cast quite a while ago. The owners can verify that. Is this casting absolutely that old for sure? Or do you mean when he did the work???
Oh and take my comments with a grain of salt, I am basing my opinions strictly on observations of the casting provided in your photos. Photos can lie. If I am wrong, I'll be the first to congratulate you.
Oh and take my comments with a grain of salt, I am basing my opinions strictly on observations of the casting provided in your photos. Photos can lie. If I am wrong, I'll be the first to congratulate you.
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
Several fan helmets were cast quite a while ago. The owners can verify that. Is this casting absolutely that old for sure? Or do you mean when he did the work???
Oh and take my comments with a grain of salt, I am basing my opinions strictly on observations of the casting provided in your photos. Photos can lie. If I am wrong, I'll be the first to congratulate you.
It was an under the bench casting made by an industry professional working at Shepperton sometime around 1989/1990 who happened to see the moulds. He made a half assed attempt to finish it, gave up and left it. It was then given to the current owner and has languished in an unfinished state for the past 17 years in his garage. It was there i noticed it about 6 months ago and suggested he dig it out. There is no conspiracy or duplicity going on. It really is as straightforward as that. No one will be selling this. It is strictly going to be a hobbyist project to finish and display.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Hell it sounds pretty authentic based on that info alone. I suppose the previous owner could have screwed up the casting to it's current condition. The only thing that truly baffles me is why this one is one piece and the screen one is two pieces. (meaning the crown part) The whole when was it moulded gets foggy when you compare the screen versus this casting. If the original doodads were in the same casting it might all make sense. But why would you remove those???
I guess what you're saying is that the mould was made after the crown was added but prior to adding the details to the crown. I suppose that could happen. Mould would have been used ONLY if something happened to the screen prop. Just can't wrap my head around the things that got altered so heavily. Some very minor sanding is one thing, but moving edges 3-5mm from their original position is not only time consuming it is hard to do. There is no reason for such a thing. Again, if this was a first attempt, totally abandoned because it looked too odd....and started again from scratch......that might work out.
I guess what you're saying is that the mould was made after the crown was added but prior to adding the details to the crown. I suppose that could happen. Mould would have been used ONLY if something happened to the screen prop. Just can't wrap my head around the things that got altered so heavily. Some very minor sanding is one thing, but moving edges 3-5mm from their original position is not only time consuming it is hard to do. There is no reason for such a thing. Again, if this was a first attempt, totally abandoned because it looked too odd....and started again from scratch......that might work out.
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LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
vaderdarth
Master Member
cool.
Darth Niob
Sr Member
Very interesting thread and enjoyable to read:thumbsup
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
Compared to the screen used reveal helmet or compared to a regular Vader? Can you give me an example of where the edges have been moved 3-5mm? I can't see it when compared to the screen used. I know the cheeks have been widened 3mm as you can see the join very faintly in the moulding. Other than that, the side tube being shortened and the temple contour straightened I don't see anything that is seriously wrong. Certainly nothing that couldn't have been caused by some minor finishing or retooling.
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