Vader Helmet Opinions Sought
- Thread starter LeAngeSolitaire
- Start date
It was accidently dropped while being examined at the archives, which caused the crack.
jme3
Sr Member
Ah, thanks.
Edit: And maybe that's where and when the right-side pincer on the crown disappeared...
vaderdarth
Master Member
Doesn't matter how it formed, it just matters that the new crown plus filler stops at that line, but it's a different location on this mystery helmet. Didn't mean to imply it just hopped off one afternoon. 
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
It would be cool to see some specific details that were only found on the reveal helmet.............but do keep in mind, that details could theoretically be added to any given helmet.
Here is another example of issues with some folks who worked on films. I met a fella who worked on ESB, he made claims about his involvment with a particular prop in the film. He has photos of himself working beside known ESB crew. He has photos of himself with the actual prop during production. Yet he shows off a licensed version of the prop (very inaccurate) as evidence he is who he says he is. He simply does not know the difference. He found something that to him looks like the prop from his memory, and in his mind it is identical to the prop. I have zero doubts he worked on the film, I have lots of doubts that his memory is clear.
It is far far easier to accept claims if the helmet you are talking about looks identical to it's screen counterpart. Then you can show details found on your copy that is actually identical to the screen helmet but not found on fan helmets. That makes your job easy. The thing that makes your job hard in a situation like this is that if your helmet is very different in many respects from what is seen on film, not just added details that are missing, but structural details that should at least match earlier versions of the helmet.............details that were in ANH/ESB, absent from this missing link helmet, but then show up again on the screen helmet. That makes it so very hard to accept from a forensics point of view.
Knowing how things work on a movie set, it's practically impossible that they would add the detail they accidentally removed..........back for continuity purposes. The simple fact is, they don't give a hoot about continuity. They give a hoot about staying on schedule.
On the ROTJ reveal helmet, there is a line where the crown portion of the head was added to the top of the mask. The filler used has separated over the years and there is a paint crack visible on the helmet today. That location of filler doesn't match what is shown on the helmet in question. Shapes of other details on the helmet, around the eyes, the nose, the nose bridge, the mouth............all those things are different in some respects to what we see on screen.
So IF, what you are saying is correct, this helmet was made at the same time as the reveal that we see................they would likely have scrapped this version and started over with a more accurate base helmet.......which resulted in what we see on film. Theoretically your helmet could have been some mockup to show George before proceeding with the full build. Who knows?
Please keep in mind, this is just one guy's opinion. I love to be wrong about things, because it helps me learn new information about that which I love. I hope you are proven correct.
Dave
I hear your point and I'll say this. Kenny Clarke has a career in motion pictures going back 50 years. He has worked on some of the most famous UK shot films of all time including being HOD Plasterer on Star Wars 1 thru 4, the Indy trilogy, Superman etc, etc. He has pioneered casting techniques that some of you may use today and a few that you would probably have never heard about. You know his work, you have discussed his work and you probably collect his work. His knowledge of the things he has made is encyclopedic and he is a lovely guy to boot. He is perhaps the finest fibreglass casting craftsman living, bar none. Vader is something that he remembers very clearly and has a great deal of first hand knowledge about since it was him and his department who made Vader. Above all others, this guy is the undisputable authority when it comes to the construction of Vader. The other thing to note is that he has no agenda. When he saw the pics of this helmet he shared some observations with me and pointed many things out that mark this as being from a production mould. That's not easy to dismiss since the guy would know his own work when he sees it as I sure plenty of you would. It's not just the details on the cast but the unique methodology employed in its making that identify it.
One thing that has be said, and there is no easy way to put it, is that knowledge gained from a study of screengrabs and pics of multi-generation removed recasts of screen used pieces does not tell you the whole story and is misleading. Each cast that came out of the mould is unique. Every ANH helmet was unique from the amount of filling, sanding and trimming it was subjected to. For all intents and purposes, the ROTJ reveal was a new sculpt. It was tidied, resculpted and sanded in order to achieve maximum impact. The old helmets would not cut it.
I've said this many times, but folks concentrate too much on the differences and not enough on the similarities. This mask may show some differences but they are lot more in common than most people would admit especially given such minor differences that are easily explainable by post demold finishing or photo distortion. You can easily alter the grey reveal to match what is on screen but you will have a hard job trying to get the known reveal back to this state. That's because it was this helmet that was modded for the final reveal. Look at the junction between the connector dome and the top of the forehead. It's incredibly sharp on the grey reveal but importantly the contour line is the same. On the known reveal, that line was softened with filler. It was probably this that cracked.
Where am I going with this? I dunno, to be honest. Maybe a part of me feels a certain amount of vindication that my initial gut feelings and observations have been confirmed by the guy who supervised the making of the mould on ROTJ but it also confirmed a lot of things about this community, both good and bad. The owner will never part with the mask, that much is for sure and will eventually finish his project so any cynics who think this is some agenda riddled prank can go do one.
Some have asked for specific details about the helmet identify it as a production moulded one. I am not at liberty to share these as, as mentioned, many of them can theoretically be added to other helmets but I can say that these details are present on my friend's grey reveal. If Mr Clarke chooses to reveal them one day, that is his choice, not mine. I would not use his name if I was BSing since he could easily come here and call me out. Not to mention Propstore would probably do the same given their long association.
Jamanticus
Well-Known Member
:confused
Er, cool.
Er, cool.
If this is a LFL helmet you should have your friend cast it up and make copies available for $3000-$6000 each, I think that's the going rate for screen-used copies.
Ghost Host
Sr Member
I find it hard to believe that this casting is what produced any screen used helmet, ...based on what it looks like now... unless there has been alot of work done to the face or something... BUT I see alot of truth in your recent post here and find it a very interesting read.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I have heard someone else say something similar to "stop talking about what it isn't and focus on what is there".
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
To be fair, he's not the sharpest tool in the box. Professional lunkheads never are. :lol
jme3
Sr Member
Am I correct that the line of reasoning from the op is now that this mask was the prototype for what we know as the studio reveal rather than a casting of the studio reveal? If so, I'm still not getting my head around why this is a casting with details like the wire leads and dynodes already in place. To my mind, those would have been final assembly components and not something that would have been put in place on a prototype and then cast for approval... :confused
I and everyone else here have been wrong about things before, but I honestly can't see a connection between this and what we know as the ROTJ reveal.
I and everyone else here have been wrong about things before, but I honestly can't see a connection between this and what we know as the ROTJ reveal.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Again, the guy with the connection to fiberglass work and the production sounds quite legit to me. I have no reason to believe he isn't what he says he is.
The helmet, just doesn't move me. Perhaps it's just your pics, but lots and lots have changed between what you are showing me and what was on the screen helmet.
Many of the things on the screen helmet, match with older screen helmets but not this one. I don't know how to put that gently without sounding like I'm bashing the helmet.
There was obviously a helmet that had extra stuff added to the crown. Then filler, sanding and smoothing and priming. Then doodads glued on. Then more paint, more doodads until what we see on screen.
What I don't think is that the production helmet has the crown thingie moulded on like you are suggesting. Mainly because the mould works better if there are no little joints like that. The filler would have been added and sanded smooth prior to moulding. That is just logic talking, no proof that is how it happened.
Personally I think they took an already cast helmet, added crown and filler, primed painted and added doodads. Never moulded it after adding that as there is no need.
The crown crack we see today is the loose crown addition on the original casting. If that thing were moulded in it wouldn't have cracked perfectly around the junction like that. The only reason the entire crown hasn't fallen off completely is that there are doodads inside the helmet as well as outside that go thru both the crown addition and the mask itself.
Someone may prove my theory wrong, but the other way seems pretty hard to swallow from my perspective. I have no way to prove that the crown section couldn't crack off entirely like that if it were fiberglassed thru and thru......its just that I've dropped fiberglass items before and they don't break all pretty like that in real life. A thin strip of bondo, on the other hand, would crack all the way around exactly like that. See what I mean?
The helmet, just doesn't move me. Perhaps it's just your pics, but lots and lots have changed between what you are showing me and what was on the screen helmet.
Many of the things on the screen helmet, match with older screen helmets but not this one. I don't know how to put that gently without sounding like I'm bashing the helmet.
There was obviously a helmet that had extra stuff added to the crown. Then filler, sanding and smoothing and priming. Then doodads glued on. Then more paint, more doodads until what we see on screen.
What I don't think is that the production helmet has the crown thingie moulded on like you are suggesting. Mainly because the mould works better if there are no little joints like that. The filler would have been added and sanded smooth prior to moulding. That is just logic talking, no proof that is how it happened.
Personally I think they took an already cast helmet, added crown and filler, primed painted and added doodads. Never moulded it after adding that as there is no need.
The crown crack we see today is the loose crown addition on the original casting. If that thing were moulded in it wouldn't have cracked perfectly around the junction like that. The only reason the entire crown hasn't fallen off completely is that there are doodads inside the helmet as well as outside that go thru both the crown addition and the mask itself.
Someone may prove my theory wrong, but the other way seems pretty hard to swallow from my perspective. I have no way to prove that the crown section couldn't crack off entirely like that if it were fiberglassed thru and thru......its just that I've dropped fiberglass items before and they don't break all pretty like that in real life. A thin strip of bondo, on the other hand, would crack all the way around exactly like that. See what I mean?
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
That's basically what I am saying. I think this was how it originally was sculpted and then retooled subsequently to make the reveal as seen on screen. Take this helmet, smear a bit of bondo here and there, shorten some bits, sand, prime and paint and you're basically there. Try doing it the other way around and you'll have problems.
We will probably get to the bottom of this once Kenny sees the helmet in person next week and talks through the details. He said he would try and figure out who did this sculpt, though the one person who would know for sure would be Fred Hole, the production designer on ROTJ, passed on in February. One name that was mooted was Brian Archer.
Aside from the temple crease and the side tube shortening, I see little that cannot be explained by post de-mold finishing. Asking in the nicest possible way, I would love to see what you are talking about as I cannot see it myself.
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vaderdarth
Master Member
Now I'm confused, are you saying this helmet you are showing has a separate crown piece attached to it, or is it moulded in your helmet???
jme3
Sr Member
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
This is moulded in. But as stated previously, a helmet from this same mould could have been bondo'ed up (including the connector dome and the head join) and with minor alts, used for the screen used reveal without being recast. That would explain why the screen used one has they crack in the way it has.
Edit: If you look at my friend's cast above, you will notice how sharp that juncture on the crown connector and head is. It's actually quite thin in that area where that was moulded. Certainly thin enough to break easily and cleanly. Possibly bondo was added for strength?
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LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
So Kenny Clarke's certainty that this is from one of his production moulds worth nothing to you?
Nice to know you would discount so quickly the opinion of the guy who moulded and cast these things. :rolleyes
Jamanticus
Well-Known Member
I've got two quotes from Mic Davis:
"not all RPF members are always correct"
"I have been told plenty of things about movie or TV props by the people that were there. No way they were right.
Not everyone know everything about what was or wasn't made for the movie."
LeAngeSolitaire
Well-Known Member
True, but a craftsman will always recognise his own work when he sees it.
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