Vaccuforming - Does inside vs outside molding of originals matter?

[Amish Trooper]

I would just take a 1x4 with a block on top(childrens alphabet block) Easy to replicate. Kinda like SS diagram from earlier.

 

[blip]

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[Art Andrews]

I'll tell you what. I'll try to do the experiment in a standardized fashion that would allow anyone else with vac form equipment to replicate the experiment on their own if they want.
For example, I'll try to use items that most people readily have available in their homes (like pennies or nickels).
Anyone else have any pertinent items in mind, let me know and I'll include them.


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My thought was to do several stacked blocks, the first being 1" high with the second being 2" high and on up to about 4 or 5" inches. If you did a similar shape of differing heights (maybe something like a mini-staircase) wouldn't you end up with plastic that was stretched thinner over the tall pieces and less stretched over the shorter pieces? I am assuming (I have never vacformed myself so I don't know) that the differences between the short pieces would be greater than the tall pieces when vaccing from inside and outside molds. Does that stand to reason or am I off in my thinking?

 

[Amish Trooper]

Art basically nailed what I was thinking

 

[defstartrooper]

No not at all. But I am concerned about people getting incorrect perceptions.

So concerned your site still says and you have always said all your trooper helmet moulds are untouched,undamaged and unrestored even though in this thread you admit even moulds taken from the interior of a vac-formed peice require a certain level of reworking to get the desired result with a replica ?

You're not concerned about people getting wrong perceptions at all stop pretending otherwise.
But if you truly are concerned about false perceptions maybe you should start closer to home.

The CFO helmet and armour are what they are and what Joe and Mark have said right from the start.
They haven't had to dress them up or make false claims about them for years on end.
Everyone knows the source, everyone knows the helmet moulds are from the interior of the original helmet and the armour moulds are from the exterior of an original suit and have been sharpened up, have they ever stated differently ?

 

[Art Andrews]

We split this thread to stop the derailing of the cfo thread but kept this going because we feel the debate about outside vs inside was relevant. Lets not now derail this thread with a debate about Gino's statements on modified vs unmodified molds. If you want to discuss that, start a new thread, but I warn you to be cautious of falling into trolling or baiting. Nothing wrong with asking for clarification on what appears to be a discrepancy,but don't let it devolve into an attack.

 

[defstartrooper]

We split this thread to stop the derailing of the cfo thread but kept this going because we feel the debate about outside vs inside was relevant. Lets not now derail this thread with a debate about Gino's statements on modified vs unmodified molds. If you want to discuss that, start a new thread, but I warn you to be cautious of falling into trolling or baiting. Nothing wrong with asking for clarification on what appears to be a discrepancy,but don't let it devolve into an attack.

Sorry Art i wasn't attempting to derail, i thought Ginos statements about his moulds which are conflicting were relevent to the debate as moulds taken from inside or outside do need a level of reworking to achieve the desired result.
That's why i thought it was on topic.

 

[Art Andrews]

I think singleseat made a good argument, which Gino reaffirmed about making molds from the inside of a vacced piece not rendering an EXACT duplicate of the original mold and that to achieve something closer to the original mold, additional work would be required. Gino seems to have confirmed he has made those changes to his molds and when initially questioned even said something about it being easier to say they are untouched than explain it. Personally, I am not in agreement with that approach as I think it leads to confusion and understand your concern about the discrepancy, but that aspect of the discussion is really outside the purview of the discussion we are having here.

 

[SeanB13]

I don't know, Art, but I would have to agree with, defstartrooper, when he adressed Gino's blatant hypocritical disinformation.​

Gino

No not at all. But I am concerned about people getting incorrect perceptions.

I could smell that crap through my monitor when I read it.​

Art

but I warn you to be cautious of falling into trolling or baiting.

So would GF's comment below be an example of the trolling and bating that you're referring to?​

GF

Exactly he had the next best thing, the best having nice vacuuform pulls to pour in for a more detailed copy, some have higher standards then others.

 

[SeanB13]

I'm not exactly sure why it was ignored twice already, but thanks for responding to my question about the webbing, Mike/nswsystems.​

Your answer affirmed my assumption about the webbing not being present on the mould cast from the inside. It also gave another vote in the favor of the general consensus that casting from the inside is superior in attaining the most accurate replica of the object being cast, which I believe is correct in most instances.​

But,the thinly-veiled underlying intent of this thread is not to distinguish which is the most preferable method when casting stacked blocks,or pocket change, but Screen Used, Stormtrooper armour and helmets.​

I think it's a really basic concept that casting from the inside would yield sharper details, but this method also sacrifices other critical details such as the webbing, which in most applications would be considered highly anal and semantic, but this is a discussion about paper-thin plastic and millimeters that best represents what was seen on a movie screen.​

While the inside casting has it's benefits, such as sharper cuts, it also lacks critical details that are present on the outside casting, such as the webbing and these characteristic are just as important to replicating screen-used accuracy as anything else in this hobby/ business.​

Again, it comes down to pros and cons and compromise, not superior versus inferior.​

 

[sskunky]

The webbing would be present on the cast taken from inside as webbing is like a fold in the plastic and the open end of the fold is on the inside of the form.
I think we have come to the conclusion that inside is better but not perfect. Either way the moulds would have to be cleaned up to a certain extent. Which is what I have done having a little more clean up to do having moulds from the outside.
Vac forming blocks, pennies etc is no true representation of the reason this discussion was bought up in the first place.
I have accepted that the inside is better and that the outside also has benefits. It is what it is.
I'll let the armour do the talking from now on.
I'm done.

 

[SingleSeat]

...some have higher standards then others...

I would disagree with that part, however. Having or not having access to an inside pull and having high standards are two separate issues. I have access to an excellent helmet cast for my projects, but I could just as easily have not had access to it. That doesn't change my standards, my work ethic, or my pursuit of a better replica. I'm really hard pressed to see any evidence of low standards in the vacuum forming of this armor from an external face. That's what I meant by doing what they could with what they had -- it wasn't a downgrade at all. We all run into limits and compromises sooner or later. Gino, Joe, Mark, me, you, everyone.

 

[GF]

I would disagree with that part, however. Having or not having access to an inside pull and having high standards are two separate issues. I have access to an excellent helmet cast for my projects, but I could just as easily have not had access to it. That doesn't change my standards, my work ethic, or my pursuit of a better replica. I'm really hard pressed to see any evidence of low standards in the vacuum forming of this armor from an external face. That's what I meant by doing what they could with what they had -- it wasn't a downgrade at all. We all run into limits and compromises sooner or later. Gino, Joe, Mark, me, you, everyone.

I'm not talking about the makers, I know they only had a fibergalss copy to work with, what I mean is that it's a big deal for some knowing that you can achieve better results from the inside, for some 1mm is not a big factor but it is for many, it's not only the 1mm difference but it's all the subtle details that are lost. There's nice ROTJ pulls out there that can be molded from the inside for a much nicer copy.

GFollano

 

[g05ty]

There's nice ROTJ pulls out there that can be molded from the inside for a much nicer copy.

GFollano

So you are encouraging re-casting anothers work ???

 

[Larry Young]

...for some 1mm is not a big factor but it is for many...

And those people are really, monumentally, full of crap. There is not a human being on this planet that can discern four one-hundreths of an inch by eye at distance. Which is how most TKs are experienced. I allow there might be some lunatic somewhere who, given two shin pulls from the same buck mightmightmight be able to tell the difference, but, come on. "Many" people might find a 1mm difference to be a big factor? I would put forth that most people can't discern a 1 mm difference without a set of calipers. I would put forth that "many" people can't find their own elbows in the dark.

I really don't have a dog in this particular hunt other than a perverse interest in human nature and the various permutations thereof... but, come on. "Many" people think 1mm is a big factor?

 

[Art Andrews]

You know Larry, between your post and singleseat's "you can never achieve accuracy" chart, you guys are going to have members here jumping off highrises.

 

[sskunky]

You know Larry, between your post and singleseat's "you can never achieve accuracy" chart, you guys are going to have members here jumping off highrises.

:lol

 

[DarkCreations]

You know Larry, between your post and singleseat's "you can never achieve accuracy" chart, you guys are going to have members here jumping off highrises.

:lol Oh man, I almost spit my coffee all over the screen

 

[GF]

So you are encouraging re-casting anothers work ???

Let's not get there, I see your new to this and don't know much about my history with armors. make your research before making comments like this.

GFollano

 

[GF]

And those people are really, monumentally, full of crap. There is not a human being on this planet that can discern four one-hundreths of an inch by eye at distance. Which is how most TKs are experienced. I allow there might be some lunatic somewhere who, given two shin pulls from the same buck mightmightmight be able to tell the difference, but, come on. "Many" people might find a 1mm difference to be a big factor? I would put forth that most people can't discern a 1 mm difference without a set of calipers. I would put forth that "many" people can't find their own elbows in the dark.

I really don't have a dog in this particular hunt other than a perverse interest in human nature and the various permutations thereof... but, come on. "Many" people think 1mm is a big factor?

Read carefully, I said it's not only the 1mm difference it's also the subtle fine details which you can only capture from inside a good vacuum pull, difference will be noticable, have you ever molded or vacuuformed?

GFollano