Tyrell could have outwitted Batty

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by Vermithrax 4, Mar 25, 2012.

  1. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    I've always wondered why Dr. Tyrell didn't simply lead Roy Batty to believe that there was some experimental method they had been working on to extend a Replicant's four-year lifespan, or even a proven secret method. They would no doubt had to have put Batty and Pris through some sort of procedure that might anesthitize them. Once under all they would have to do is "retire" the two of them humanely. I mean, knowing his own life was at risk I wonder why he didn't proceed along those lines in an attempt to save himself. Not that the scene isn't powerfully written and performed as is. Just a thought.
     
  2. SmilingOtter

    SmilingOtter Master Member

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    Batty would probably have insisted on observing Tyrell perform the procedure on Pris. Or vice versa depending on which one would expire first. If the replicant died on the table, or ran down at the normal time, the other would destroy Tyrell.
     
  3. tk1055

    tk1055 Sr Member

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    Probably because Batty would have made Priss go first while Batty watched.
     
  4. terryr

    terryr Sr Member

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    Tyrell was a replicant. Therefore, couldn't lie. Or, wasn't sneaky enough to lie.
     
  5. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    But Tyrell told Batty the procedure would kill him as he had tried it already. Why would he tell him that? Why wouldn't he just perform the procedure silently knowing it would kill them? Why didn't he just alert the police when Batty showed up?

    Maybe it is because he "loved" his creations and had no intentions of harming them at all. A father's love for their "misguided" child.


    Kevin
     
  6. Jedi2016

    Jedi2016 Sr Member

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    Batty certainly wasn't stupid. As clearly demonstrated in the film, he had already thought of possible solutions, he just had no way of testing or implementing them.

    My belief is that, once off the assembly line, a replicant's genetic structure can't be changed. Whatever they're "born" with is fixed, permanently. Rachael had no expiration date not due to any intervention, but because she was made with those specifications from the start. In other words, there was never a way for Batty, Pris, or any of them to live any longer than what they were made with.

    I don't buy the "Tyrell is replicant" argument, and the only reason I even consider the "Deckard is replicant" theory is that Ridley himself said it.
     
  7. GlazyUK

    GlazyUK Active Member

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    I often wondered if Roy Batty was as he describes himself in this line "We're not computers, Sebastian, we're physical. " and he was a combat model like Bryant tells Deckard when he briefs him on the replicants, then how come Batty is so good at chess, and spots moves even JF Sebastian didn't spot when playing Tyrell, I'd assume JF would be a hell of a lot more intelligent than Batty ?!
     
  8. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    Batty was a good tactician.
     
  9. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Tyrell probably has always lived a very protected life, he was taken by surprise. He is a genius, but his heart was probably pounding and stress was high to be playing life or death speed chess with Batty.
     
  10. autoprops713

    autoprops713 Well-Known Member

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    I think Tyrell was maybe thrown off just how "human" Batty really was. Perhaps he dropped his guard and Batty took things from there. :behave
     
  11. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    All good responses.

    And so now Tyrell is a replicant??? Jeez, why don't they just go ahead and suspect everyone of being one? I never bought the idea of Deckard being one, regardless of what Ridley Scott said, I honestly think he was just talking out of his *. There's no evidence to support the idea of Deckard being a replicant. If he's a Bladerunner then he should have been designed as a combat model the same as Batty, but Deckard clearly lacked any sort of superhuman strength. He barely managed to jump between the two buildings where Batty jumped the distance with ease. And if he'd had combat model strength he should've been able to pull himself up from the edge. Also, having Deckard be a replicant really kills the impact of the scene at the end between him and Batty. Batty, in the last minutes of his life, is trying to make this human understand that he himself is just as sentient a being as Deckard, and Deckard, as a human who has been coldly killing replicants, is experiencing the revelation of that truth. Having one replicant attempt to convince another replicant of this fact makes no f'ing sense. Just my opinion, of course.
     
  12. Jedi2016

    Jedi2016 Sr Member

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    That's pretty much the opinion of most people that don't like the replicant idea. It makes Batty into a fool, mistaking Deckard for human and effectively wasting the last few minutes of his life.
     
  13. Flagg

    Flagg Sr Member

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    I thought in the original shooting script Tyrell, or the one we see on screen, was a replicant? I thought it had something to do with the original one being sick and in a fridge while his copy was putting forth the good public image for him. Didn't they even film a scene with Batty killing the replicant tyrell and then taking the elevator to a freezer area where he killed the real Tyrell or am I remembering storyboards from The Making of Blade Runner?
     
  14. JD

    JD Master Member

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    Could use a big ol' spoiler warning in the title.

    I'll give ya that the movie's been out for a million years and parts of it have been debated to death... but, an plot point like this really should have a less spoiler-ific title (and one that actually mentions the name of the movie involved).
     
  15. Nexus6

    Nexus6 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well, the 'Replicant Deckard' group (which includes me) will say that if you're going to have a replicant posing as a human cop, he would have to be 'B' or 'C' level strength (Batty & Leon were level 'A'), so he could blend in with the population. If the general public saw a cop going toe-to-toe with a humanoid bulldozer, it would be a dead give-away.

    And FWIW, I don't care what "side" anyone's on. I can look at the film from a 'Human Deckard' perspective & it works just as well for me.

    And to be honest, this particular plot debate makes me tired. *shrugs*

    And here's a pretty picture ;):
    [​IMG]

    As for your original topic question, I'd often considered the very same thing. I always assumed that Tyrell didn't even think about lying, & that in his arrogance, he thought he could "reason" his way out of the situation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2012
  16. Flagg

    Flagg Sr Member

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    You're joking, right?
     
  17. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    There are other threads on this forum with my views on Deckard as rep or not so I won't repeat my opinion, but bare in mind that Ford is on record as stating he missed his mark in that shot and that is why his eyes appeared red. It was a screw up, perhaps Scott took advantage of it later in editing, but the important thing to note is Ford was not instructed to be in a position for the effect to be captured by camera.
     
  18. JediG60racer

    JediG60racer Sr Member

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    I LOVE that cinematographers took the time to make shots with practical effects like this so long ago, and miss those days. Too much CGI now that doesn't look half as good as practical effects.
     
  19. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Hand made endeavors produce happy accidents sometimes.
    Things turn out different then you planned, and sometimes
    exceed what was being gone after totally by accident in unintentional ways.
    Inability to meet over reaching plans limited buy budgets for instance
    or technology, can force greater creativity in different directions which
    again, create happy accidents or a path gone down that never would have been explored.

    If I were in charge of films with heavy FX, I'd try to put in the process
    steps that will keep things hands on in the practical FX world for a portion of the production to produce those unintentional discoveries that so often
    give an effect a new and unique appearance.

    CGI is still a hero as well, it makes possible what was impractical or not possible, fusion of the two is the best recipe I think.
     
  20. Timmythekid

    Timmythekid Sr Member

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    Tyrell's downfall is arrogance, and a feeling of intellectual superiority. The whole "smarter than God" Lucifer/Prometheus thing going on with "More human than human.". Tyrell lives in an exclusively and isolated intellectual world - what we know about his pusuits include theoretical bio-engineering, theoretical psychology, the massive scale econimics of his business, and chess. He was also exceedingly arrogant. I've always read it as he approached the whole encounter as a purely intellectual one, and just honestly couldn't imagine Batty getting violent when faced with the cold, logical reasoning Tyrell presented, because, well, what does it solve?
     
  21. Kerr Avon

    Kerr Avon Master Member

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    Are you actually serious here or just mocking all the spoiler crowds?

    Because there's nothing spoilerish about the movie 30 years after it came out.
     
  22. rodneyfaile

    rodneyfaile Sr Member

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    Blade Runner opening - The NEXUS 6 Replicants were superior in strength and agility, and at least equal in intelligence, to the genetic engineers who created them.
     
  23. Prefect42

    Prefect42 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I got the impression, as others have stated here, that Tyrell was so entrenched in the intellectual realm that is really didn't occur to him to fear Batty until it was too late.

    I love that Tyrell shows surprise when Batty first appears. Then he relaxes at they talk. He seemed genuinely happy to see one of his creations in person and outside of the factory. Tyrell becomes a bit apprehensive as Batty takes his head to kiss him and then fear and horror as Tyrell realizes it is too late.

    To me, Tyrell's arrogance was his downfall. "Blinded by science" if you will.

    Ted.
     
  24. Dave Ward

    Dave Ward Sr Member

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    It makes it a much more touching and interesting scene, definitely. But it's also possible he just knew he couldn't get away with the lie and took his chances.
     
  25. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    You've never watched Blade Runner? (!?!) :confused


    Kevin
     
  26. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    All really good observations from everyone.

    SPOILER WARNING: a tortoise and a turtle are the same thing. :lol
     
  27. Jedi2016

    Jedi2016 Sr Member

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    That's a good summary.
     
  28. Wes R

    Wes R Legendary Member

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    Apparently it didn't occur to him to have security cameras in the elevator. i sure would have.
     
  29. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Indeed a great assessment!

    Not to jack the thread, but Batty certainly harboured a great deal of hatred for his creator; he just as easily could have twisted/snapped Tyrell's neck killing him instantly. Instead he opts for one of the most brutal/painful ways to kill someone.


    Kevin
     
  30. Noeland

    Noeland Sr Member

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    Tyrell was originally supposed to be something more than a replicant. The BSG writers basically stole the idea and used it for the cylons. He was a clone with downloaded memories, and once the body was killed the consciousness was rebooted in another body. In some drafts of the script, and in some storyboards, Batty finds the clone chamber, and then Tyrell's original body in a pyramid, in statis. Something like that. :)

    Also, in this day and age, YES, the comings and goings around Tyrell would be well documented by video. But in 1981/82 that was just not common or much thought about.
     
  31. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like something similar to the ghola idea from the "Dune" books. Numerous copies of Duncan Idaho had been made over the centuries that the God Emperor ruled. Each time one was created the memories of the man had to be "woken up" within him. Ideas like this always cross polinate throughout literature, of course.
     
  32. Kerr Avon

    Kerr Avon Master Member

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    Glad they didn't include that because then he would have been lieing to the Nexus 6 since they had technology to transfer consciousness.
     
  33. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    Lots about eyes in BR. Windows to the soul and whatnot. That's why Batty destroyed Tyrell's.
     
  34. Commander Max

    Commander Max Sr Member

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    If Tyrell was a genius and since he designed Batty's mind. Then why didn't he put a fail-safe in Batty's mind, to protect himself. After all if you design a soldier(and a smart one at that) you can't assume they will not show up(If one Nexus 6 gets the idea for more life, wouldn't others?).
    Nor can you rely on Blade Runners to protect you indefinitely.

    What I can't figure out is how come the designers recognized Batty as a Nexus 6. But the cops need a machine and endless questioning to identify the Replicant, but Deckard can spot one in a crowd. I'm sure the line, "Have you ever retired a human by mistake?" was a joke.
     
  35. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    It takes one to know one. Deckard is a repiicant.
     
  36. decaturvader

    decaturvader Sr Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  37. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    :lol :lol :lol




     
  38. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    When does Deckard pick a Replicant out of a crowd without foreknowledge they are indeed a Replicant?

    You talking about chasing Zhora through the streets? Kinda hard to miss a tall redheaded half-naked woman who nearly killed you moments before. ;)

    He didn't know Rachel was a Replicant until the VK test- and he seemed genuinely surprised to find out; certainly not that he was playing along the whole time.

    "Takes one to know one"... So I guess that means J.F. and Chew were replicants too? Is every character in the film a skin job? :rolleyes :lol


    Kevin
     
  39. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    Yes. Otherwise I'm a complete dick for never once in all these years asking myself why Tyrell didn't lie to save his life. Perhaps one is also seduced by the irresistible poetry of the idea: the god who can't conceive that his creation would ever hate him so much as to kill him.
     
  40. Noeland

    Noeland Sr Member

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    Yes, they have pictures/video of all the replicants. Why is a VK machine needed when the photos are right there? Holden should have known Leon by his photo.

    There is always the chance the police were provided those things after Holden VK'd Leon I suppose.

    It's not an airtight film. Not perfect. But it's still my favorite movie.
     
  41. Nexus6

    Nexus6 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Yeah, but what he says doesn't really mean much, IMO. How many times have you heard an actor come up with some statement/factoid/revelation 25 - 30 years after the fact (sometimes even completely contradicting something they said "on record" previously)? Several times, I'd bet.

    Heck, he wouldn't have HAD to have been told to be in the position. Ridley could just as easily have told the FX guys: "Make sure everyone's eyes are glowing..."

    WE
    just don't know.


    Ahhh, you reached pretty far for that one, imo. J.F. & Chew knew what they were (after observing them for a little bit), because they were directly involved in the manufacture of replicants. It only makes sense that THEY might guess what they were.

    You guys don't EVEN want me to start spouting my theories that EVERY Blade Runner on the force (minus Bryant & Gaff) are replicants.

    COME AT ME, BRO!!1
     
  42. Nexus6

    Nexus6 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    ^DITTO.^ :thumbsup :thumbsup
     
  43. TheRealMcFly

    TheRealMcFly Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Tyrell doesnt need to outwit anyone because he believes if he is killed, that he gets to return. I know it's been covered but wasn't it Sebastian who also had access to the original Tyrell but the only one with the knowledge that it dead beyond repair?

    So Tyrell doesn't care what happens to him (as a copy) but he actually does get murdered not realizing his original is already beyond his own science.

    Or was that the book?
     
  44. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Oh trust me "I" don't believe they are Replicants. My comment was a tongue-in-cheek response to Mic's "Takes one to know one, Deckard is a Replicant" comment.

    It just feels like fan conspiracies on who-is-what have run rampant with this film to the point of it making an episode of The Twilight Zone look straight forward. :lol


    Holden planned on shooting Leon under the table too; Leon just shot him first.
    If you slo-mo Leon shooting him, Holden had his gun drawn as his chair is blown backwards- even before the close up of Leon shooting a second time.

    Of course in the Special Edition Holden fires a couple of times before Leon shoots back in self defence. :behave


    Kevin
     

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