Question Trader issues with Customrelic, advice welcome

[johnnyhungus]

A problem has arisen whilst dealing with a trader/Premium Member of the forums.

Trader posted an interest run of an item, to which I added my interest and further to this, placed a deposit. Prior to doing so, I stated how much of a perfectionist I am and how I like things to be right and to my satisfaction, to which the trader was in agreement, he would not send anything out unless it was perfect.

I have made one other payment to him and on reflection, should have been less trusting, especially as the PayPal email address was not in his name (his name I had to ask several times for and eventually got it!).

I was shown a few photos and we exchanged emails and messages on this forum.

My warning alarm sounded when I found it difficult to get hold of this trader and had to ask an associate of his to get in touch with him. Some excuses came about how he would never ignore me and he did not see my emails as he was changing his server. I posted messages to him on the RPF, I am not sure why he didn't reply to me on here.

In our email exchanges, the trader offered to send me something to help me out with my own sculpture (this never happened) which raised another alarm to me.

Amongst all of our conversations (which have not been many) the trader moved from one email address to another (his domain) which is fine and was telling me how his website was going to come online soon. I thought this was great as it would give me some confidence in the trader and his overall abilities and not just leaving it to blind trust, which is what I was doing.

Nothing. No website has appeared.

At this point, I had made two payments to the trader and started to ask more questions, my levels of patience were being worn and I was fast losing confidence.

I understand that people are busy but if you are taking someone's money, you have a duty and responsibility to keep them happy. I don't expect to be spoken to everyday but I do expect prompt responses to my questions.

To cut a long story short, the trader showed me some photos of the product, which was far from perfect and also been painted up (which we agreed on a custom paint job) - this led to more suspicion as it seemed as if the product was prepped already and not fresh, ready to be customised to my specification, as agreed. Also, the product was far from perfect, as already discussed.

I sent multiple messages to the trader with no response. I also saw him online at one point on the RPF, so he would have seen my messages for sure.

Still no response.

After nearly 3 weeks of waiting, I got in touch with his associate again asking if he could get in touch with the trader. By this time, I have had enough of this and have lost all confidence in the trader, it appears I am not the only one as his associate had fallen out with him too, for various reasons.

Miraculously, the trader got in touch by email, a couple of days after he got my message from his associate, knowing I was not happy. What arrived was an email, containing the usual stuff - excuses, words of how he would never ignore me etc.

I replied immediately, with my feelings and a couple of options on how to go forward, I expected a reply by return, this is how people do business, especially if your customer is not happy. I got nothing, so yet again asked his associate to get in touch, otherwise I would post on the RPF. I got an email telling me he would reply in the morning and he was not ignoring me. I have not seen a reply yet and that was over a day ago, he has also been on the RPF and has definitely seen my messages.

I realise people are busy, running their businesses and lives but it is the responsibility of the trader to step up, especially as he has my money - you do not take someone's money without being held accountable.

If it was me and I had taken a person's money and they were unhappy, I would do everything I could to make sure that person was happy and the situation sorted out PROMPTLY.

Anyway, I am not happy to give this trader any more money, especially after this. He stated that the deposit I gave him is not refundable but I have not seen that anywhere and I have his original thread open on my web browser.

There are a lot more odd and suspicious things that raised my alarm bell, that I could put here but I will hold off for now.

I am not one to unduly damage someone's reputation, yet, this trader was explicit in saying that he would not risk his reputation, just for this product he was selling.

Well, as far as I am concerned, he has damaged it with me and I am not happy. I don't want to work in this sloppy and manner.

My options to this trader were:

Fully refund my money (nowhere was it stated that the deposit was non-refundable until his recent email)

or

Finish the product, send it to me and if it is as perfect as you say, then I will pay the balance immediately.

Trust goes both ways.

I have lost trust in this trader by the way he has operated, so I believe that it is now up to the trader to build it again and my options are fair.

Before I give the name of this trader (I have given multiple warning of doing this), I would like some feedback from the forum please.

Just to add, I sent the money as PayPal gift, not because of the fees but because I had no reason to distrust this person, before anyone says it.... more fool me, though I am not sure how much protection it would actually give.

 

[Johnnyfl]

I am in a similar situation with a long standing member of the forum. In my case a deposit was paid 10 months ago with the initial deadline in the interest thread of Q2 2018! Since then several promises of the item being shipped have been posted but recently nothing for 3 months. Unfortunately this is the second time I have waited a very long time for an item with this member and that nearly did not end well also. I also see that he is now getting complaints from other members on other runs.

Sometimes life events get in the way and in others some projects have long lead and development times but a little update every now and again goes a long long way. Also in my experience not all people with very artistic talents are necessarily gifted with good business or communication acumen so my advice to you is to claim a refund from Paypal, gift or not they should at least look into it and try to get the item elsewhere. In my case I have reached out again to the member but am not confident of an early reply.

 

[johnnyhungus]

Sounds all too familiar. Except I am not willing to let this slide for any length of time but I can understand your situation and also agree that many artists do not make good business people.

Having said that, they still have a responsibility and should not carry an attitude with it, they should be ready to deal with the problem and be humble about it.

I won't pay any more money due to the reasons stated and think a refund is the best resolve here, I will contact PayPal and ask them to look into this though.

I have the traders address, whether it is genuine or not, we shall see, if all else fails.

 

[ZeroSum]

What exactly was the agreement made from the outset? Was the agreement that you would make the full and final payment only after you receive the item? Or was that you have to make the final payment in order to get the item? Or was none of this discussed?
Is there a project timeline agreed to? Is there a payment timeline agreed to?

 

[johnnyhungus]

What exactly was the agreement made from the outset? Was the agreement that you would make the full and final payment only after you receive the item? Or was that you have to make the final payment in order to get the item? Or was none of this discussed?
Is there a project timeline agreed to? Is there a payment timeline agreed to?

The agreement was a payment schedule, which I started. I was ready to make the full remaining money owed in one hit, until I saw the photos and also the odd disappearing act for nearly 3 weeks after he sent the photos.

To be fair, the only discussion of the payment schedule was that I could spread it over 6 months.

Do you think this is the most relevant part of the situation?

A couple of times, the trader said he was "ready to go/finish" the project, after I had to go through his associate to get hold of him. Not after he read and replied to any correspondence from me. He has also not responded to my criticism of the quality of the work shown in the photos.

Surely it is more important that I have lost confidence and trust in this person, as it is my money involved here.

 

[ZeroSum]

Do you think this is the most relevant part of the situation?

I do, actually. This business about how promptly emails get replied to is a bit He Said/He Said. People have different expectations about how frequent emails should be. It's kind of neither here nor there.

I was ready to make the full remaining money owed in one hit, until I saw the photos

So you saw the photos of... a not yet finished work and did not want to make any further payments? Is it fair to make a call on the quality of work before it is completed?

You say you're a perfectionist - could that be the problem?

I suggest you don't worry about how frequent emails were. A lot of nuance can get lost in emails when tone can't be judged. Maybe you need to get on Sype to hammer out the next part. At the least, you both need to get on the same page as to how you both get a mutually satisfactory resolution - find some common ground around what you expect from the seller and what the seller can expect from you. You then both work to those expectations.

Perfectionism is... a tricky expectation to meet. Remember, you're not buying a product off the shelf - you've commissioned an artist to make a piece of art for you and art is subjective. Perhaps you need to have a bit of trust in the artist/seller.

 

[johnnyhungus]

I do, actually. This business about how promptly emails get replied to is a bit He Said/He Said. People have different expectations about how frequent emails should be. It's kind of neither here nor there.



So you saw the photos of... a not yet finished work and did not want to make any further payments? Is it fair to make a call on the quality of work before it is completed?

You say you're a perfectionist - could that be the problem?

I suggest you don't worry about how frequent emails were. A lot of nuance can get lost in emails when tone can't be judged. Maybe you need to get on Sype to hammer out the next part. At the least, you both need to get on the same page as to how you both get a mutually satisfactory resolution - find some common ground around what you expect from the seller and what the seller can expect from you. You then both work to those expectations.

Perfectionism is... a tricky expectation to meet. Remember, you're not buying a product off the shelf - you've commissioned an artist to make a piece of art for you and art is subjective. Perhaps you need to have a bit of trust in the artist/seller.

Is that an objective opinion? I didn't read anything in your reply that suggests any buyer rights or protection.

With regards to your comment about "he said/she said" I actually find that quite nonchalant. It is very relevant and I am sorry you cannot see that. Communication is vital in any situation, if there is a breakdown in communication then this causes problems. We are in the year 2019, it is very easy to communicate to people, there are no excuses. I find it odd that you suggest Skype as a means of discussing things, I sent an email asking to be contacted on Skype by this trader and was met with silence. I am sure there is some fantastic reason for the lack of communication. I suppose that seeing this trader online on the forums and their not responding to my messages is acceptable too? I don't think so myself.

It is easy to forget that the person whose cash is being spent, has every right to a decent experience from a trader, no matter how godly they think they are.

I have a problem with things that make me suspicious and I have lived long enough to know when something doesn't feel right.

With regards to your comment about "an unfinished work", what I was shown was the same paint up as the initial finishes product, so when I see something painted up in a way that I asked for it not to be and it looks badly trimmed in places, I won't accept that. I am not after a repaint, I expect it to be done, as agreed and to a high standard, which is what was discussed.

Not after anything too difficult, to be honest.

As for having trust in the trader, it's a two way thing for sure but if I feel that it has been broken by someone, for reasons that I believe are over my personal acceptability, then that is my right. Everybody is entitled to work different to the next but also being respectful to the person who has originally put the trust in someone with their money.

 

[Apollo]

Did not the seller tell you he was in transition to another work shop and he would be out of touch for a while?

 

[xl97]

Nothing said here excuses anyone not communicating (with in a reasonable time frame).. or taking off with ones money.... (ever)..

However... the above being said..

When you send someone money FIRST.. you are always taking a risk/gamble... leap of faith.

If you do NOT use PayPal or some other way of having some buyer protection, then you are doing yourself a disservice.

If anyone for ANY REASON lets 6+ months go by and still NOT received the product... then you are just crazy!.. If the product/item isnt going to be done in under 6 months.. DO NOT PAY THEM until the 'due date' is much closer..

Immediately file a PayPal dispute..and get your money back.. You can always send them money again.. but after 6+ months.. they will do nothing for you... why let this 'seller' burn up your protection??

NEVER (ever) send money as a 'friend or gift'.. this is a ploy to remove the 6+ month protection immediately.

As far as the OP goes... I'm not sure what you hoping to gain here?

Feedback? (on what?) You have a pretty solid stance on how you feel and how you feel things should have played out... (and I agree)..

But you did not mention this members name? So what is the point? Venting? You arent protecting anyone else?

If you are here to share and expose.... do so.

Everyone should know how this person behaves when conducting business....

 

[Apollo]

Two sides to every story >

I am sure the seller will come here and give his side

Nothing said here excuses anyone not communicating (with in a reasonable time frame).. or taking off with ones money.... (ever)..

However... the above being said..

When you send someone money FIRST.. you are always taking a risk/gamble... leap of faith.

If you do NOT use PayPal or some other way of having some buyer protection, then you are doing yourself a disservice.

If anyone for ANY REASON lets 6+ months go by and still NOT received the product... then you are just crazy!.. If the product/item isnt going to be done in under 6 months.. DO NOT PAY THEM until the 'due date' is much closer..

Immediately file a PayPal dispute..and get your money back.. You can always send them money again.. but after 6+ months.. they will do nothing for you... why let this 'seller' burn up your protection??

NEVER (ever) send money as a 'friend or gift'.. this is a ploy to remove the 6+ month protection immediately.

As far as the OP goes... I'm not sure what you hoping to gain here?

Feedback? (on what?) You have a pretty solid stance on how you feel and how you feel things should have played out... (and I agree)..

But you did not mention this members name? So what is the point? Venting? You arent protecting anyone else?

If you are here to share and expose.... do so.

Everyone should know how this person behaves when conducting business....

 

[johnnyhungus]

Did not the seller tell you he was in transition to another work shop and he would be out of touch for a while?

The seller told me he was moving workshops and having his website set up, there was no mention of being out of touch at all. There is a perfectly good messaging system on the RPF, which I use. I also saw the trader online on the RPF.

 

[johnnyhungus]

Two sides to every story >

I am sure the seller will come here and give his side

Yes this is true, is there any reason you are being so defensive to the trader?

 

[Apollo]

I agree no excuse for not utilizing the PM feature.

As I posted earlier I am sure the seller will come here and give his side of the story.

Take a tip from a someone who has been around for a while.

I don’t care WHO they are and what their Rep is, NEVER use the gift option with Pay pal EVER!

The seller told me he was moving workshops and having his website set up, there was no mention of being out of touch at all. There is a perfectly good messaging system on the RPF, which I use. I also saw the trader online on the RPF.

 

[johnnyhungus]

I agree no excuse for not utilizing the PM feature.

As I posted earlier I am sure the seller will come here and give his side of the story.

Take a tip from a someone who has been around for a while.

I don’t care WHO they are and what their Rep is, NEVER use the gift option with Pay pal EVER!

Good advice which I will never forget , for sure!

 

[Apollo]

Not being defensive of him at all, in all honesty he has asked for advice, as you are doing here, in the Premium Members thread.

I have weighed in on both threads

No names have been posted on either threads so far which is commendable on both your parts.

As I have posted earlier, which is the unmitigated truth, “There are two sides to the story”

Yes this is true, is there any reason you are being so defensive to the trader?

 

[johnnyhungus]

Not being defensive of him at all, in all honesty he has asked for advice, as you are doing here, in the Premium Members thread.

I have weighed in on both threads

No names have been posted on either threads so far which is commendable on both your parts.

As I have posted earlier, which is the unmitigated truth, “There are two sides to the story”

I am glad he is asking advice, but this makes things seem very odd.

Why did he not reply to me directly though, even after I sent him messages on the RPF several weeks ago, I even saw he was online on the RPF? Why would I have to chase him to get answers? Like most people on here, I am busy, I have a life and I don't need the drama.

I find it questionable that a trader who willingly takes money from a paying customer for a product or service, can seemingly do things by their own rules and not feel accountable to the customer. It is not fair to expect everyone to see just a single point of view, I agree and there needs to be a common ground, yet, without communication, the whole thing falls apart.

You can't just appear and disappear when you feel like it, thinking everybody is okay with that. Where money is involved, you just cannot mess around. You see too many people go through that, it isn't fair. Trust must be earned, it's not automatically yours because you are a Premium Member. I have dealt with a very well known artist who took a very large sum of money off of me for some of his work, always promising, always coming up with reasons and excuses and after waiting for a whole year, I still didn't get the product! Yes, once you have experience this treatment, it makes you super cautious but even so, I still paid my deposit and didn't think anything of it.

I agree you should not judge anybody by past experiences but the vibes I got were exactly the same as before.

There are many ways to communicate and the RPF has a great messaging system which is accessible from any mobile device, in this day and age there is no reason not to stay in contact. To have to go via another forum member is not really fair.

I have been extremely careful with what I have divulged and there has been some things said that I have not repeated. There has, sadly been some slight mis-truths quoted by this trader, to which I am not happy about. I have all of our correspondence and have been through it all carefully, to make sure I have not mis-quoted or misguided in any way at all.

I am just a regular guy trying to buy something on this forum off of a person who appeared to be legit (and probably is), I did not think for a moment that I would have to start chasing him around. I don't need that kind of hassle, which is why I am not happy to work this way.

I have lost confidence and why shouldn't I? I am the person who has paid money out, I am the "customer", not the guy who has got the money and is not replying when sent messages and emails.

I am also a fair person, which is why I stepped back, asked advice and looked at the situation from the outside and is why have not named the trader yet.

There is a way to resolve this but it is not going to be on the terms that the trader will expect. I still like the product and am willing to do the deal (which I detailed in my email, which has not had any reply).

Trust goes both ways.

I understand that some people will agree/disagree and thats fine, we are all different and have different levels of expectation. Life would not be very interesting if we were all the same! (that's what my mum used to say)

 

[Apollo]

Being a Premium Member is required here to sell but other than that has no bearing on a members reputation.

One has to do ones home work before entering a transaction with a seller here.

Every Seller here has a different way of conducting ones business.

As an FYI for you I have PMed your Seller that you have started this thread.

Hopefully you two can come to terms without having to air out your grievances on the forum and getting the Mods involved

 

[johnnyhungus]

Being a Premium Member is required here to sell but other than that has no bearing on a members reputation.

One has to do ones home work before entering a transaction with a seller here.

Every Seller here has a different way of conducting ones business.

As an FYI for you I have PMed your Seller that you have started this thread.

Hopefully you two can come to terms without having to air out your grievances on the forum and getting the Mods involved

I appreciate your input and help, though I must add that if the trader had bothered to reply to my original PM's and emails, I would not even have had to start this thread.

 

[johnnyhungus]

It has been a week now since I posted my concerns, a week since the trader who is ignoring me was online and over a week since he said he was going to email me back. I understand that this trader posted in the Premium Members section asking for advice on the situation but has yet to make contact, even though he knows my issues and has definitely had the ability to make contact.

The only thing I can take from this is that this person really could not care less about the situation, otherwise he would have made the effort to contact me. I would be anxious to sort this out if I were him.

It just demonstrates a total disregard for the situation and I take it very personally.

 

[Apollo]

It has indeed been a week since he has even been on the board.

He is indeed perfectly illustrating your point of no communication