The Ultimate Luke ANH Graflex Research & Discussion Thread

[roygilsing]

Comic overreactions aside, that seems a little too asymmetrical, even for handmade. It's worse than the Elsetree clip. The end-on photo is so blurry it's hard for me to tell if this is what we're seeing or not.

I agree with you. There is some uncertainty to this shape. Nate and I had lengthy discussions about it. We also improved the image quality and this is the shape it reveals. The shadows and the blurr make it probably look softer than it really is. Still, this is better than we had before.

 

[IronDestinyProps]

Agreed, Roy. I wouldn't say the clip shape is 100% accurate, but based on the reference photos we have, it is a definite improvement over the original in terms of screen accuracy. It's interesting to note we now seem to know why the D-ring on the real prop is slightly lifted away from the base of the Graflex due to the "spur" on the clip that juts out from the side shown in the new blueprint.

 

[Gregatron]

Remember, people, most of us thought the mystery rivets were a strange and ugly reveal, two years ago, and now people routinely place them on their replicas. This asymmetric clip surely falls into the same camp. That being said, many more sets of eyes are now on the case to confirm/deny/discuss these new findings.

This research is a search for the truth, not to confirm our suppositions and biases about a prop thrown together just to look good onscreen.

This not for the faint of heart. You must unlearn what you have learned.


On an unrelated note, and inspired by Roy’s always-brilliant model-to-photo matching, I find myself wondering if we can’t generate some 3D models of certain flashgun parts in question (bottom endcap, clamp lever/rivet, etc.) in order to determine which variant parts are actually on the hero. We have plenty of flashgun variants in collectors’ hands, and now have additional photo reference of the hero prop, after all. Why not model authentic and accurate models of those variant parts, then try and match them up to the reference photos?

 

[Gregatron]

Comic overreactions aside, that seems a little too asymmetrical, even for handmade. It's worse than the Elsetree clip. The end-on photo is so blurry it's hard for me to tell if this is what we're seeing or not.

This makes me wonder how an overlay of both clips would stack up. Were they made at the same time, from the same width/thickness of aluminum stock?

 

[AnubisGuard]

Remember, people, most of us thought the mystery rivets were a strange and ugly reveal, two years ago, and now people routinely place them on their replicas.

[stubbornly holds out]

 

[roygilsing]

Remember, people, most of us thought the mystery rivets were a strange and ugly reveal, two years ago, and now people routinely place them on their replicas. This asymmetric clip surely falls into the same camp. That being said, many more sets of eyes are now on the case to confirm/deny/discuss these new findings.

This research is a search for the truth, not to confirm our suppositions and biases about a prop thrown together just to look good onscreen.

This not for the faint of heart. You must unlearn what you have learned.

Well said!
As an industrial designer I am trained to 'kill my darlings' and think out of the box.
The problem with my drawings is that they look so definite. But believe me, I don't see them like that myself. Even though I'd wish I'd never had to change them again (all these unpaid hours aside). That's why I prefer to hear critical observations rather than praise only. That's what we do here on the RPF, right?

On an unrelated note, and inspired by Roy’s always-brilliant model-to-photo matching, I find myself wondering if we can’t generate some 3D models of certain flashgun parts in question (bottom endcap, clamp lever/rivet, etc.) in order to determine which variant parts are actually on the hero. We have plenty of flashgun variants in collectors’ hands, and now have additional photo reference of the hero prop, after all. Why not model authentic and accurate models of those variant parts, then try and match them up to the reference photos?

I don't think you'd need my help in determining those details. But if there are specific ideas I'd like to hear it.

 

[Gregatron]

Well said!
As an industrial designer I am trained to 'kill my darlings' and think out of the box.
The problem with my drawings is that they look so definite. But believe me, I don't see them like that myself. Even though I'd wish I'd never had to change them again (all these unpaid hours aside). That's why I prefer to hear critical observations rather than praise only. That's what we do here on the RPF, right?


I don't think you'd need my help in determining those details. But if there are specific ideas I'd like to hear it.

A wise person is always flexible, and always adjusting their ideas with the input of new data. I think we all know that things like this are a work-in-progress, and that healthy skepticism (without any malice, of course) and asking questions often leads to new and better ideas.

Meanwhile, I just haven’t had a chance to compare reference images of the clamp levers, etc. Surely it shouldn’t be THAT difficult to determine which specific parts are on the hero.

Also—and I suppose this particular detail has become my unicorn—I do wonder if accurate renders of the different endcap stamping/lip-rolling styles might help us determine both the stamping and orientation of the hero’s endcap, even with the very, very spotty reference.

Computing power is supposed to double every six months! Surely these fuzzy photos can divulge yet more secrets!

 

[DannyP91]

So are the Folmer gang swapping out there Levers/Clamps for INC because the lever pin looks like a larger INC?

 

[Drew Baker]

So are the Folmer gang swapping out there Levers/Clamps for INC because the lever pin looks like a larger INC?

I'm using one like the levers in second row of this photo:



I think that's a Folmer variant, as the pins are in the same location as the rusted pins -- and there seem to be far more smooth-pinned flashes out there than levers with the rusted pins, so looking at this a variant would explain that shortfall. I also think that explains why the pin looks especially large in some of the ANH prop photos if you compare it to an Inc -- it's not necessarily a size issue, but placement. I think that for the Incs, in the third row, the pin was reposition to make the lever stronger.

(I've gotten this style clamp on Folmers flashes both with and without patent, so I don't think it's diagnostic to that end.)

 

[v312]

I don't have one that's like this, but after seeing Drew's post in the Graflex facts thread I also believe the middle row levers are what we see on the ANH saber. Before I thought It's just a beat up "regular" shiny rivet lever (3rd row).

 

[SmallsTimelord]

The first one is the folmer, a small rounded brass rivet on the inside, whereas inc ears have inset dimples pressed on the inside in 6 places. External finishes are very similar however.

My graflex bunny ears are like the folmer pictured but with a silver colored rivet. What does that say about it?

 

[v312]

Some are brass other are silver, but otherwise the same size and shape. I guess the "silver" ones are just the same but chromed. The brass ones don't look like they were once silver and the plating was worn off from use though.

 

[SmallsTimelord]

Some are brass other are silver, but otherwise the same size and shape. I guess the "silver" ones are just the same but chromed. The brass ones don't look like they were once silver and the plating was worn off from use though.

So does that mean it's a Folmer? I got a Graflex inc model and the top, bottom, and clamp seem to be worn in a manner that leads me to believe that they are all the same flash.

 

[v312]

Well, the stamp is only on the bottom part. And they were sold separately if you want 2cell 3cell and so on. So it is kind of hard to claim that a top or the clamp are "Folmer" or "Inc", just that some combination of features of the other parts are most commonly found today paired with a Folmer or Inc bottom part. At least that's how I see it.

But based on the recent discussions I don't remember anybody to have a flash with this kind of bunny ears rivet and Inc bottom part.
So yours sound quite interesting combination - what about the other features - like the pins, etc ?

Could you post some pictures ? (probably better in the Graflex facts trhead Graflex Variations: Facts and vs. Replica )

 

[APOLLO IND]

My graflex bunny ears are like the folmer pictured but with a silver colored rivet. What does that say about it?

It is probably an Inc variant then of some kind most likely. But We’re finding more and more how much these small details vary. Read through the thread and you’ll see! There is overlap in consistency details from flash to flash it would seem!

 

[APOLLO IND]

I'm using one like the levers in second row of this photo:

View attachment 1435064

I think that's a Folmer variant, as the pins are in the same location as the rusted pins -- and there seem to be far more smooth-pinned flashes out there than levers with the rusted pins, so looking at this a variant would explain that shortfall. I also think that explains why the pin looks especially large in some of the ANH prop photos if you compare it to an Inc -- it's not necessarily a size issue, but placement. I think that for the Incs, in the third row, the pin was reposition to make the lever stronger.

(I've gotten this style clamp on Folmers flashes both with and without patent, so I don't think it's diagnostic to that end.)

I have found the second row type lever on a folmer clamp, which is the one I use on my ANH. It’s cool because the lever has a similar rust pattern to the real prop as well!

 

[GhostbusterDan]

I can’t get behind the new D Ring Clip theory.

I am convinced it’s shadow and the angle of the photo, I cannot buy into the theory they made something so asymmetrical.

Star Wars is wonky, dirty and used, sure .. but with so many off the shelf solutions, I can’t see them hand making that and doing it a disjustuce.

The current offering seems the most accurate and realistic to me.

 

[Gregatron]

Also, why would the Elstree prop—ostensibly an abandoned FX attempt—have a nicer-looking clip than the hero prop?

The jury’s still out on this, but I tend to think that the hero clip would look pretty similar to the Elstree, assuming they were made around the same time by the same people from the same materials.

If and when Roy makes his asymmetrical clip, I would suggest that someone shoot some photos with both the new and symmetrical clips and compare them against the reference photos to see how they stack up.

 

[v312]

I think it is pretty similar to the elstree prop

quickly cut by hand (from a beer can?) , rivets not aligned , etc. Assuming the hero got much more "hanging time" it could be just wear, bending and deformation from the D-ring that make the clip look so asymmetrical.

 

[Gregatron]

Mind you, I’m not saying the Elstree looks perfect, but it’s also not that terribly wonky. The wonkiness mainly comes from the offset rivets and the lopsided rolling of the clip around the d-ring, I think.

Not at all to knock Roy’s work on this, but just feels off to me that the shape seems SO weird. I mean, it shouldn’t be that hard to cut a strip of metal (with reasonably parallel edges, round off the ends, then fold it over on itself.

This hypothetical version seems to have a weird zig-zag thing going on, like it was made from metal cut diagonally, or perhaps that it even has a chunk missing, which they tried to compensate for when rounding the ends.

I’d be interested to see what Roy’s base design looks like without the folding, just to get a sense of how he thinks the original clip was cut to shape.