The Ultimate Luke ANH Graflex Research & Discussion Thread

[Gregatron]

Also, I'm seeing a lot of back-and-forth here, but no consensus. It's all Folmer, it's all Inc., or it's a mix (be it due to manufacturing or swapping of parts). Lots of varying opinions, clearly.

Surely there has to be a way of determining, part by part, what we're dealing with. Things like the endcap lip rolling, clamp lever rivet, etc. I wouldn't put too much stock in the brushing or levels of shininess in these old photos. There are a lot of variables (lighting, lenses, film stock) which could be misleading. I think focusing on the actual physical details would yield more accurate results.

I also think that going on the assumption that the flash started out as ALL Folmer or ALL Inc., and then maybe had a part or two (like the red button) swapped out would be a logical starting point. I can't imagine things like the bunny ears being swapped out, especially by the film's prop team. Occam's Razor dictates that the prop team most likely used the hero flashgun essentially as they found it. Maybe--MAYBE--there was a need to swap out some parts due to either damage or aesthetic preferences (like the aforementioned red button).

Going part-by-part and seeing which version's traits are most prominent seems like a good starting point, to me.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

And this is an INC TOP HALF.

View attachment 1424895

I can see the numbers stamped on the clamp sidebar. That is amazing.

 

[thd9791]

I can see the numbers stamped on the clamp sidebar. That is amazing.

and, unless I'm mistaken, his sleeve is showing us how the bubble strip was trimmed. Right Angle cut, as opposed to the bevel estree version

 

[v312]

What do you think about the bunny ears pin on this picture?

Is it just the light playing tricks or not the original dome shaped chrome pin at all?

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

What do you think about the bunny ears pin on this picture?

View attachment 1424967
Is it just the light playing tricks or not the original dome shaped chrome pin at all?

I think it’s just the resolution of the photo. I mean, the red button looks like it doesn’t have any vertical ridges in the band in that photo and we know it does.

 

[v312]

I think it’s just the resolution of the photo. I mean, the red button looks like it doesn’t have any vertical ridges in the band in that photo and we know it does.

There's enough resolution for what I was referring to (the shape and color). Let me explain:

I expect to see a shiny little blob - something like the one on the right, but what I see is close to the ones on the left side

Here's the unblurred version:

 

[Drew Baker]

I expect to see a shiny little blob - something like the one on the right, but what I see is close to the ones on the left side

There is a photo of the pin head on, on the first page. That would probably be better reference for this question.

 

[IronDestinyProps]

The beer tab rivot has that distinctive "Inc" 4 triangle light bounce.
The dull folmer beer tabs don't do that - but I do have a vintage graflex with shiny finish, original smooth pins and a shiny beer tab so could easily be a random version.

I can't say I agree the machined rivet is necessarily distinctive of Inc Graflexes, Colin. From what I've observed, almost all vintages have that type of beer tab rivet with some very slight variation now and then. I think I can safely say that I've never seen Folmer Graflexes have a consistently "dull" beer tab rivet. All Graflexes have that shiny machined rivet look.

Thank for posting this! A friend and I were just looking at this. The beertab rivet is distinctly machined on the inc. top, as opposed to dull on the folmer top. Not to mention in a number of the photos above, you can see a distinct difference in the finishes of the folmer clamp, and Inc. top. That is also an Inc. button on there as well!

Can't say I agree with you on this, Ariston. It's a trick of the angle of the Graflex and the light in the shot. I have handled many Folmer Graflexes which at that oblique of an angle appear to have completely different finishes, but when looking straight at them the finish on the flash parts match just fine. I would trust more to the full length shots like the Chronicles photo which seem to show a uniform finish on the entire flash. All the reference photos I have and the film footage seem to indicate the entire flash was a Folmer--no Inc involved. Shiny Folmer upper, clamp and bottom with rounded tip, non-stepped brass pocket pins, shiny Folmer lever with large rivet--end of story, ha.

The first one is the folmer, a small rounded brass rivet on the inside, whereas inc ears have inset dimples pressed on the inside in 6 places. External finishes are very similar however.

I would hesitate to make the claim that all Graflex types have certain bunny ear interior rivets that make them distinctive to their variant. I have two Folmers on hand that actually have a dimpled rivet that attaches the spring to the ear (see AnubisGuard's post #42 second photo).

View attachment 1424866

Both center holes of the rivets are visible from that angle ... so why do I
only see 1 dark hole of the existing rivet in the newly presented picture :

View attachment 1424867

And why do I not observe 2 darker holes of 2 rivets present like so? :

Sym-Cha, I'm seeing two rivets it's just since the scan of the photo was done poorly it obscures our ability to see the details clearly. I also agree with Gregatron's observations, post #80.

 

[Diego86]

I can't say I agree the machined rivet is necessarily distinctive of Inc Graflexes, Colin. From what I've observed, almost all vintages have that type of beer tab rivet with some very slight variation now and then. I think I can safely say that I've never seen Folmer Graflexes have a consistently "dull" beer tab rivet. All Graflexes have that shiny machined rivet look.

I'm sorry Nate but this is totally wrong. There is a clear distinction between Folmers and INCs. Later I'll post a series of pics to show it. Said that we can also make a further distinction between Folmers beer tab variations but this is another matter that I don't want to take now. Also because it's evident from the way in which the light reflects that that rivet is an INC.
.

 

[Diego86]

I would hesitate to make the claim that all Graflex types have certain bunny ear interior rivets that make them distinctive to their variant. I have two Folmers on hand that actually have a dimpled rivet that attaches the spring to the ear (see AnubisGuard's post #42 second photo).

Totally agree with this instead, I also own a Folmer with this type of bunny ear. It's a variation of LATE Folmer.
Anyway it's still possible to distinguish this type of Folmerr ears from the more common INC ears because, even if they have the dimpled rivet in common, in the Folmer version there aren't classic 4 internal dimples (2 on each side) which are a distinctive feature of INCs.

I have previously read that we should consider the possibility of mixing parts directly from the factory due perhaps to the assembly done by hand or attributable to different suppliers for the various parts of the flash... Nothing more wrong than that. I mean that there was certainly a transition period in which some characteristics of the Fomers were re-proposed on the INCs, this for sure. But all this follows a precise logic, this must be very clear.

 

[roygilsing]

I'm sorry Nate but this is totally wrong.

Please be careful when you say 'totally wrong'. Describing all these visual differences in words is a delicate matter. Before you know it you get yes-no discussions. I suggest to give each statement some slack and make them less bold. That way we also keep the discussion more civilized. (Sorry if this sounds like a lecture, I just want this great thread to keep on moving smoothly!)

Roy

 

[Diego86]

Please be careful when you say 'totally wrong'. Describing all these visual differences in words is a delicate matter. Before you know it you get yes-no discussions. I suggest to give each statement some slack and make them less bold. That way we also keep the discussion more civilized. (Sorry if this sounds like a lecture, I just want this great thread to keep on moving smoothly!)

Roy

No problem Roy. I consider Nate a friend and I certainly don't want to offend anyone. I just want to say that some things aren't questionable or shouldn't be. Not because I'm the one who says it, just because, by now, (all of us) we have enough experience to say it.

 

[Sym-Cha]

Sym-Cha, I'm seeing two rivets it's just since the scan of the photo was done poorly it obscures our ability to see the details clearly. I also agree with Gregatron's observations, post #80.

Would it be possible to get a higher resolution scan in the future? I ask this because I see a lot of rivets placed widely apart by most members i.e.

Picture courtesy of Wannawanga

... whereas when I observe the screenshot it's clear to me those rivets are much closer together,

... riveted a-symmetric just like the Elstree lightsaber :

Picture courtesy PropStore

Speaking of the Elstree saber I did notice earlier what Gregatron meant . . . by looking at one of the pictures presented by Ruben a.k.a. indignate (see below) it seems one hole is blocked by the mandrel ... whilest looking at the close-up picture above it's definitely and clearly open.

Anyhow . . . in conclusion ... to aspire in recreating the most screen-accurate ANH replica made mostly of vintage parts of Luke's lightsaber in STAR WARS Episode IV A New Hope ... it would really help to get a higher resolution picture of the bottom to get an exact position of those 2 rivets in the D-ring clip as suggested by me in that manipulated picture :

Picture courtesy Iron Destiny Props

And since this thread is somesort of Archive ... here's the entire picture of Luke and his lightsaber that gave us that quite infamous Toe-Pic :

Picture courtesy THX1138

Chaïm

 

[teecrooz]

That picture of the endcap is a scan from the proof sheet. Remember, that is many smaller photos on a single picture. Would need a negative scan or a full size individual picture for a better one.

The full “Toe pic” above is courtesy of THX1138. He owns the original that was scanned.

 

[APOLLO IND]

I can't say I agree the machined rivet is necessarily distinctive of Inc Graflexes, Colin. From what I've observed, almost all vintages have that type of beer tab rivet with some very slight variation now and then. I think I can safely say that I've never seen Folmer Graflexes have a consistently "dull" beer tab rivet. All Graflexes have that shiny machined rivet look.

Can't say I agree with you on this, Ariston. It's a trick of the angle of the Graflex and the light in the shot. I have handled many Folmer Graflexes which at that oblique of an angle appear to have completely different finishes, but when looking straight at them the finish on the flash parts match just fine. I would trust more to the full length shots like the Chronicles photo which seem to show a uniform finish on the entire flash. All the reference photos I have and the film footage seem to indicate the entire flash was a Folmer--no Inc involved. Shiny Folmer upper, clamp and bottom with rounded tip, non-stepped brass pocket pins, shiny Folmer lever with large rivet--end of story, ha.

I would hesitate to make the claim that all Graflex types have certain bunny ear interior rivets that make them distinctive to their variant. I have two Folmers on hand that actually have a dimpled rivet that attaches the spring to the ear (see AnubisGuard's post #42 second photo).

Sym-Cha, I'm seeing two rivets it's just since the scan of the photo was done poorly it obscures our ability to see the details clearly. I also agree with Gregatron's observations, post #80.

I can't say I agree the machined rivet is necessarily distinctive of Inc Graflexes, Colin. From what I've observed, almost all vintages have that type of beer tab rivet with some very slight variation now and then. I think I can safely say that I've never seen Folmer Graflexes have a consistently "dull" beer tab rivet. All Graflexes have that shiny machined rivet look.

Can't say I agree with you on this, Ariston. It's a trick of the angle of the Graflex and the light in the shot. I have handled many Folmer Graflexes which at that oblique of an angle appear to have completely different finishes, but when looking straight at them the finish on the flash parts match just fine. I would trust more to the full length shots like the Chronicles photo which seem to show a uniform finish on the entire flash. All the reference photos I have and the film footage seem to indicate the entire flash was a Folmer--no Inc involved. Shiny Folmer upper, clamp and bottom with rounded tip, non-stepped brass pocket pins, shiny Folmer lever with large rivet--end of story, ha.

I would hesitate to make the claim that all Graflex types have certain bunny ear interior rivets that make them distinctive to their variant. I have two Folmers on hand that actually have a dimpled rivet that attaches the spring to the ear (see AnubisGuard's post #42 second photo).

Sym-Cha, I'm seeing two rivets it's just since the scan of the photo was done poorly it obscures our ability to see the details clearly. I also agree with Gregatron's observations, post #80.

I guess to say anything is “for certain” on this matter would be silly haha. These claims are all based on ones perception of something, which by nature is almost always a little subjective. Now, I’m not suggesting that i’ve seen or handled any more flash guns than the next guy! I might be mistaken here...but I have yet to see a true Folmer/Folmer pat top with a machined beer tab rivet like the inc top. In most cases it looks like a great condition Inc, that someone has put folmer pins and a folmer eye on. If anyone has one they’d like to share, and can confirm by comparing that top’s finish, to a folmer with a dull rivet, or dull dimpled rivet top, and the finishes match perfectly, I’d gladly be on the potential Folmer train for this hilt again!

Now I will say Nate, I would totally agree the screen used hero would appear to be a full Folmer setup for sure. On the contrary, in some of these photos, it would appear the hilt could’ve potentially been re-assembled with an Inc top for the post-production photo shoot.

 

[APOLLO IND]

Also, I'm seeing a lot of back-and-forth here, but no consensus. It's all Folmer, it's all Inc., or it's a mix (be it due to manufacturing or swapping of parts). Lots of varying opinions, clearly.

Surely there has to be a way of determining, part by part, what we're dealing with. Things like the endcap lip rolling, clamp lever rivet, etc. I wouldn't put too much stock in the brushing or levels of shininess in these old photos. There are a lot of variables (lighting, lenses, film stock) which could be misleading. I think focusing on the actual physical details would yield more accurate results.

I also think that going on the assumption that the flash started out as ALL Folmer or ALL Inc., and then maybe had a part or two (like the red button) swapped out would be a logical starting point. I can't imagine things like the bunny ears being swapped out, especially by the film's prop team. Occam's Razor dictates that the prop team most like used the hero flashgun essentially as they found it. Maybe--MAYBE--there was a need to swap out some parts due to either damage or aesthetic preferences (like the aforementioned red button).

Going part-by-part and seeing which version's traits are most prominent seems like a good starting point, to me.

Very well said my friend!

 

[Sym-Cha]

The full “Toe pic” above is courtesy of THX1138. He owns the original that was scanned.

Thanks teecrooz ... I shall edit my post


Chaïm

 

[THX1138]

What a great thread! After all this time, that prop still has mysteries!

- Jim

 

[v312]

I guess to say anything is “for certain” on this matter would be silly haha. These claims are all based on ones perception of something, which by nature is almost always a little subjective. Now, I’m not suggesting that i’ve seen or handled any more flash guns than the next guy! I might be mistaken here...but I have yet to see a true Folmer/Folmer pat top with a machined beer tab rivet like the inc top. In most cases it looks like a great condition Inc, that someone has put folmer pins and a folmer eye on. If anyone has one they’d like to share, and can confirm by comparing that top’s finish, to a folmer with a dull rivet, or dull dimpled rivet top, and the finishes match perfectly, I’d gladly be on the potential Folmer train for this hilt again!

Now I will say Nate, I would totally agree the screen used hero would appear to be a full Folmer setup for sure. On the contrary, in some of these photos, it would appear the hilt could’ve potentially been re-assembled with an Inc top for the post-production photo shoot.

What about Ninja's flash, scottjua's flash from the old "Graflex Variations" thread (hope it is OK to repost the picture here) :

and mine? Ninja's also have the bigger chrome washer under the beer tab that I've otherwise only seen on flashes with Folmer bottom and flat rivet/smooth pins. These washers on typical flash with Inc bottom that I've seen are smaller than the beertab and sort of yellowish finish.

I personally don't believe any of these examples were assembled from Inc top and Folmer bottom, then had the pins, buttons and glass eyes replaced from the Folmer's top.

 

[corliss1]

Here's a couple of my photos to add to the pile. 1 and 2 are both Folmer with no patent. 3 and 4 are Folmer with patent.

Now, here's a no-patent version where the finish is noticeably different. It's still satin, but it seems even more satin to me than the "usual" Folmer version.