Drew Baker
Sr Member
As exciting as it would be to discover another hero, I've seen that style rivets on Folmers. I would not give any weight at all to the claim that beer tab rivet marks it as an Inc-era top -- quite the opposite, frankly.
The Ultimate Luke ANH Graflex Research & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter IronDestinyProps
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- anh graflex lightsaber
As exciting as it would be to discover another hero, I've seen that style rivets on Folmers. I would not give any weight at all to the claim that beer tab rivet marks it as an Inc-era top -- quite the opposite, frankly.
Ok! That's good news I guess.
In that case that one grip must have been reattached before that colour photoshoot.
"Satin" Brushed, same thing in my mind haha. I guess my phrasing wasn't very good there haha. I'm trying to convey that My Inc. stuff is all that less shiny, more of your traditional "brushed" metal look. As in, you can see the brush marks more frequently giving it a more matte surface. All I'm saying here is that the Folmer and Inc flashes do have a distinct difference. But yes the Folmer has deeper brush marks, but is a lot more shiny, and reflects light a lot differently than we see in the reference photos in my opinion. Or it could easily be a transitionary period flash where it s a bit of a mix of details, which I think is the likely scenario. Basing your ANH build off of these photos, I don't think you can go wrong with a nice inc. upper shell, or a folmer upper shell. It could be seen both ways, though it leans more toward Inc. to me. Our luck, we'll finally get a clear picture of the bottom stamping one day, and it will be a totally new and rare one-off variant like the light colored exactra with red led's, or the steel MPP shroud
Drew Baker
Sr Member
Looks like that's grip 7 in Roy's numbering scheme, where 2 is the one that moves between promo shoots.
Indeed. It's not the same one.
Right, It's just one possible tell. I think the finish difference and Inc button are the biggest tells from the post production shots that it could be an Inc. top. Although the hero in the film looks more folmer to me.
We know that the Kenobi saber changed between shooting and the CHRONICLES photos, and that there may have been more than one prop. The same may well apply to the Graflex. We have the promo shoot (with actors) photos, the film itself (with the upper half rotated, and the missing grip from early in principal photography), and the post-production photos.
At first glance, the rotated upper half in the film would seem to indicate a separate prop from the one in the photos, but the tells (like grip position and the wonky lever position) would seem to refute that.
At first glance, the rotated upper half in the film would seem to indicate a separate prop from the one in the photos, but the tells (like grip position and the wonky lever position) would seem to refute that.
Drew Baker
Sr Member
All those features can be found on a Folmer with patent -- with the added benefit of the single-rivet ears and smooth pins probably being stock as well, rather than needing to have been replaced in a typical Inc-era top. Though there are some consistent differences between Inc and pre-patent flashes, I think much of the transition was fairly fluid over the production of Folmer with patent flashes.
That said, there does seem to be a significant difference to the finish between the clamp and the top -- the reflections in the top are much more diffused. I would agree the top and clamp may not have left the factory together.
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Drew Baker
Sr Member
The rivets between the grips sold me on them being the same prop, before Roy shared his grip placement analysis. Though in retrospect, that wouldn't preclude a change of tops.
I always figured the changed orientation was simple enough to explain by someone being curious and opening the thing up; the first time I opened a Graflex I didn't think to pay attention to putting it back together the same way.
People are really keen on the idea that parts were mixed and matched by the original owners/photographers, but, if any mixing occurred, it would seem more likely to me that the prop crew swapped out parts to create the best-looking (least damaged/scratched/scuffed) heroes, or for the sake of maintaining consistency between heroes. For example, the stunt/FX has the early, thin-knurl red button, whereas the hero(es) does not. So, maybe the early button was relegated to the stunt because someone liked the full-knurling look better, or because they had more flashes with the full-knurl.
I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that the hero flashgun was used just as it was found. It may well have been one of those transitional units which mixed parts from older and newer runs during the manufacturing process.
I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that the hero flashgun was used just as it was found. It may well have been one of those transitional units which mixed parts from older and newer runs during the manufacturing process.
Ninja, could you share what type of bunny ears are on this one ?
If 6 out of 7 randomly cut and arranged grips match perfectly across all photos, and one is off 1mm or so on a single photo - for me it is the same bottom with one grip that fell off and was re-glued (they could have swapped other parts of course, including the complete top).
Sharing what Bunny Ears are now on my RAF Folmer New York 3-Cell Flash will not progress the discussion as the original Bunny Ears had been removed & an odd globe unit was located in the Bulb Holder at the time of auction (see photo) I had a set of Bunny Ears added as indicated in my original post.
ID10T
Sr Member
I really enjoy these threads. They are like a mystery novel...
Regarding the size of the rivets, if these props were made in California (I don't know), then the rivets would be "imperial" size (no pun intended), meaning "inch" based.
3mm is .118 inch
1/8 inch is .125 inch which is 3.175mm
4mm is .1575 inch
3/16 inch is .1875 inch which is 4.763mm
5mm is .197 inch
1/4 inch is .250 inch which is 6.35mm
I don't think they would use larger pop rivets than that.
Just wanted to throw that out there, because my old (made in England) 1971 Land-Rover had "imperial" rivets holding it together. So, based on the date, it's also not beyond reason to have a stock of "imperial" rivets on hand if the props were made in England. But, since the flash was from New York, I'm guessing the props were made in California. I don't know. I'm sure it's common knowledge here where they were made and who made them.
Maybe this will help with determining the exact size of the rivets.
Regarding the size of the rivets, if these props were made in California (I don't know), then the rivets would be "imperial" size (no pun intended), meaning "inch" based.
3mm is .118 inch
1/8 inch is .125 inch which is 3.175mm
4mm is .1575 inch
3/16 inch is .1875 inch which is 4.763mm
5mm is .197 inch
1/4 inch is .250 inch which is 6.35mm
I don't think they would use larger pop rivets than that.
Just wanted to throw that out there, because my old (made in England) 1971 Land-Rover had "imperial" rivets holding it together. So, based on the date, it's also not beyond reason to have a stock of "imperial" rivets on hand if the props were made in England. But, since the flash was from New York, I'm guessing the props were made in California. I don't know. I'm sure it's common knowledge here where they were made and who made them.
Maybe this will help with determining the exact size of the rivets.
Sym-Cha
Master Member
Great thread IronDestinyProps ... finally we see a picture of the bottom ... and the D-ring + clip ... with a rivet.
Indeed the way I observe that picture I only see 1 rivet off center ... not 2. Permit me to show you what I observe
using IronDestinyProps picture as an example.
But first the original picture where most of us tend to clearly see 2 rivets :
Both center holes of the rivets are visible from that angle ... so why do I
only see 1 dark hole of the existing rivet in the newly presented picture :
And why do I not observe 2 darker holes of 2 rivets present like so? :
Could there be only 1 rivet present in the D-ring clip as we used to believe?
And hence that's why just 1 single rivet is faintly visible in the famous Toe-Pic, whereas the second rivet is completely absent altogether?
Even with a picture of the bottom of Luke's ANH lightsaber ... for me the mystery of 1 vs 2 rivets still remains, what say you now RPF-members?
Chaïm
P.S. ID10T ... welcome aboard. To answer your inquiry ... Prop Designer Roger Christian, who created Luke's lightsaber, found a box full of
G R A F L E X flashguns still wrapped in paper in a photography store in the UK.
Indeed the way I observe that picture I only see 1 rivet off center ... not 2. Permit me to show you what I observe
using IronDestinyProps picture as an example.
But first the original picture where most of us tend to clearly see 2 rivets :
Both center holes of the rivets are visible from that angle ... so why do I
only see 1 dark hole of the existing rivet in the newly presented picture :
And why do I not observe 2 darker holes of 2 rivets present like so? :
Could there be only 1 rivet present in the D-ring clip as we used to believe?
And hence that's why just 1 single rivet is faintly visible in the famous Toe-Pic, whereas the second rivet is completely absent altogether?
Even with a picture of the bottom of Luke's ANH lightsaber ... for me the mystery of 1 vs 2 rivets still remains, what say you now RPF-members?
Chaïm
P.S. ID10T ... welcome aboard. To answer your inquiry ... Prop Designer Roger Christian, who created Luke's lightsaber, found a box full of
G R A F L E X flashguns still wrapped in paper in a photography store in the UK.
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I can still see what I think is a second rivet. It's entirely possible that the mandrel which goes into the rivet gun broke off close to the surface of the rivet, making the hole less obvious. The same thing has happened to me before. Two rivets next to each other, but only one has an obvious hole from a distance, because the other mandrel broke off much higher inside the hole.
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