The Kobayashi Maru Test- what's the point...

[0neiros]

Trek 09, actually Spock says the test is to make a Cadet feel fear, and gauge how they deal with it. Maybe, just maybe when a Cadet first takes the test, they are told that Failure will not be tolerated, and they will wash out Ala An Officer and a Gentleman. That WOULD really mess with a cadet's mind.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Thanks for all the input guys! The differing views certainly help shed some light here! :thumbsup

When I was an Air Cadet and was doing senior leader training we had our own versions of "stress" tests. This was all minor stuff (like having a first aid situation and dealing with someone freaking out), or other situations where a monkey wrench is thrown into your plan.

The point being how well you can improvise, and basically not choke or freeze up.


After everything discussed I think I'm leaning toward this more than anything else; that you keep doing your job despite everything falling apart around you.

"If you can keep your head while all around you are losing theirs..."


Kevin

 

[Jeyl]

Here's what I thought of the Kobayashi Maru.

It's a test to showcase how in any given circumstances, there will be conditions where no matter which option you choose, you will always end up with a bad result.

- Try to rescue the Maru? FAILURE
- Go on your merry way? FAILURE
- Attack the klingon cruisers? FAILURE
- Go in and destroy the Maru? FAILURE

This is a test about making what you feel to be the right choice even if it will lead to something bad. If you watch Kirk's character in the Wrath of Khan, he believes that you can handle any situation and have it lead to a good result. That doesn't happen in the Wrath of Khan, where Kirk makes arrogant decisions that winds up getting members of his crew killed. This happens again when the Enterprise can't escape the blast radios of the Genesis Effect. Even though there was a solution to escaping the blast, it resulted in Spock's death. Something Kirk doesn't want to accept, but must. That's what the test is all about. Learning to live with the tough decisions you'll have to make as a Starfleet Captain.

This is one of the reasons why I put Star Trek III on par with the even numbered movies. Kirk and crew are again thrown into a situation where victory seems impossible, but instead of trying to figure out a way to save everything through arrogance that Kirk had shown in Star Trek II, Kirk decides to make a hard choice by sacrificing the Enterprise. For me, this was Kirk's final answer to the test, only now understanding what the test was trying to teach him.

Of course, that's not what we get in Trek09, where cadets have no choice but to rescue the Maru. And if you read any of the books, comics or any of the games (canon or not), the solution to the test that NuKirk uses in Trek09 is actually THE WRONG CHOICE! I'm not kidding. Making the Klingons easier to kill will result in failure. If you want to know what Prime Kirk's solution was, well, go play "Star Trek: Starfleet Academy" by Interplay on PC or read the comics. His solution is pretty clever and it works with how I thought the simulations were handled.

 

[SSgt Burton]

If you want to know what Prime Kirk's solution was, well, go play "Star Trek: Starfleet Academy" by Interplay on PC or read the comics. His solution is pretty clever and it works with how I thought the simulations were handled.

Yeah I played that over ten years ago.

Kirk reprograms the Klingon A.I. so that when he introduces himself, the Klingons are impressed/intimidated by the mention of his name...

"Captain Kirk? THEE Captain Kirk?!" :eek

The Klingons then allow Kirk to escort the Kobayashi Maru back out of the Neutral Zone, rescuing the freighter and avoiding a conflict. His reasoning was that he will have quickly built up a reputation for himself by the time a situation like the Kobayashi Maru should ever really occur.

There were two other "cheat" solutions in the game as well- dumb down the Klingon A.I. so they don't fight at all, or reduce the power of their weapons so they do no damage.


What "I" don't care for in the Trek09 version is that the instructors actually care about the fact Kirk reprogramed the test at all. He had already taken it two times prior (and failed as he was supposed to). However they all act like it is his first time taking it... I would think they would be more like "Oh here we go; Kirk wants to try the simulation again. Well let's all take time out of our busy day to have this cadet try the test a third time." :rolleyes

And after he succeeds they should be dumbfounded- but not have a hearing about it; he should already have had his final grade on the test the "first" time he took it no?


Kevin

 

[Jeyl]

My issue with the depiction of the Trek09 version was

1. They're ordered by Starfleet to rescue the Kobayashi Maru, thus eliminating choice.
2. They're battle cruisers, not warbirds. Romulans are the warbirds.
3. No smoking, and no eating in the simulator!
4. Kirk doesn't really do anything in the simulation but bark out general orders.
5. The instructors don't even consider the possibility that the simulation glitched out when everything turned off for a few seconds. Kirk didn't give any orders nor do anything to his console to indicate he was the one causing this.
6. Again, THE INSTRUCTORS NEVER CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY IT WAS GLITCHED! This is like if I took a test, the lights turned off, came back on and my test is now perfect. What teacher wouldn't suspect that I switched the sheets during the black out?
7. Klingons shouldn't have cloaking devices until way past the 2270s. We're still in the 2250s.

 

[J Scorn]

i cant believe the Kobayashi Maru Test is STILL not apart of the STO game...

oh well...

.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Agreed that it was just a plot tool to "kill" Spock since the rumor mill was insane then and it has became way more then it should have.

But looking back and thinking more on it now, it did "kill" the Kirk TOS character for me in a way, this was a line drawn between Kirk as I knew him on TV, and the film Kirk, which really grew to be a different character.
TOS Kirk wouldn't have cheated, he was supposed to be a "stack of books with legs" and even needing to be set up on dates with women at the academy.
He didn't become the youngest starship Captain by cheating to get there.
These were Roddenberry's enlightened humans afterall.

 

[Treadwell]

Agreed that it was just a plot tool to "kill" Spock since the rumor mill was insane then

Boy, it worked on me. I forgot all about worrying about Spock dying until he left the bridge to head to engineering. And even then the only reason the rumors came back to mind was because my sister, next to me in the theater, said "enter Spock". :facepalm

 

[Kerr Avon]

TOS Kirk wouldn't have cheated, he was supposed to be a "stack of books with legs" and even needing to be set up on dates with women at the academy.
He didn't become the youngest starship Captain by cheating to get there.
These were Roddenberry's enlightened humans afterall.

But if it's a test that is literally unwinnable, then why not cheat? If the simulation cheats to prevent you winning, then cheating the simulation is the only option if the goal is to win. If there had been a way to win without cheating, I'm sure he'd have found it because that's just how awesome Kirk (not the Pine ripoff) is. He's also the Captain who use the Corbomite maneuver, are you going to complain he lied in a confrontation too?

 

[CessnaDriver]

But if it's a test that is literally unwinnable, then why not cheat? If the simulation cheats to prevent you winning, then cheating the simulation is the only option if the goal is to win. If there had been a way to win without cheating, I'm sure he'd have found it because that's just how awesome Kirk (not the Pine ripoff) is. He's also the Captain who use the Corbomite maneuver, are you going to complain he lied in a confrontation too?

Kirk was actually using a human "poker" strategy in Corbomite Manuever against the alien intelligence. "Not chess Mr. Spock... poker!"

Cheating your way out of real danger I'm not certain that is really a possibility. Bluffing, exploiting weaknesses, sure, but I think cheating is very specific meaning, to change the conditions of a controlled test/game such that you benefit unfairly.

It was no test anymore out there, it was the real thing.

I don't think Kirk could cheat his way out of danger anymore then the Apollo 13 astronauts could
have cheated their way home safely.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Have to agree here; Kirk didn't "cheat" Balok, he improvised.


Kevin

 

[darthgordon]

But looking back and thinking more on it now, it did "kill" the Kirk TOS character for me in a way, this was a line drawn between Kirk as I knew him on TV, and the film Kirk, which really grew to be a different character.
TOS Kirk wouldn't have cheated, he was supposed to be a "stack of books with legs" and even needing to be set up on dates with women at the academy.
He didn't become the youngest starship Captain by cheating to get there.
These were Roddenberry's enlightened humans afterall.

I'm not sure where people get this idea that Kirk acted that way at the Academy. He was like that as an instructor at the Academy. That doesn't mean that he was like that during his Academy days. According to Mitchell, he was a tough instructor... and we see the same thing with him as an admiral toward the cadets in Spock's class.

Plus, he didn't have to be set up on dates. In fact, he didn't even know he was set up. This is the guy that seemed to find an ex lover of his in every other star system. But that has nothing to do with him being a womanizer. It's because he's lonely and he's given his life to the service... any woman would come in second and they soon realize that.

Mitchell simply sent her in his direction so he'd get distracted enough and be put in a good enough mood so he (Mitchell) could get through his class.

Kirk certainly bent the rules on more than a few occasions. He had an almost cavalier attitude toward the Prime Directive. He disobeyed direct orders to take Spock to Vulcan. When ordered to leave his crewman behind by Federation High Commissioner Ferris, he did so without engaging the warp engines to see if there was any hope of finding them.

So I in no way see Kirk as out of character in Star Trek II, nor do I see any liberties taken with his past.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Kirk flat out cheating just doesn't fit with how I see the character in TOS.
The fact that he was an instructor just makes it even more out of character.

Bending rules is one thing over moral concerns or mission goals, cheating is another thing entirely.

 

[darthgordon]

Ah, but it's semantics, isn't it? Was it cheating or was simply exploiting a weakness with the computer simulation? Apparently, Starfleet saw it as the latter. There was no way to beat the Kobayashi Maru without reprogramming the simulation. He knew that, and so did the instructors. It's not as though it's a winable scenario. So he made it so he could win.

 

[micdavis]

Excuse me, Kirk breaks the PRIME DIRECTIVE how many times?

He cheats the NUMBER ONE RULE OF THE FEDERATION all the time.

Absolutely that started in the academy.

 

[CessnaDriver]

I guess I don't see how cheating applies to actual events with risk and great consequence since to me, cheating means you are taking a test or playing a game and to make up for your lack of skills or knowledge you make it easier on yourself, it's nothing to be admired.

Breaking rules like the prime directive is not cheating on a test or game.
You've made a moral choice for whatever reason and will take the consequence.
Your not trying to make it easier on yourself and make it look like your better then you are.

You get busted cheating in the military today, your in serious trouble.

Why would Kirk risk his entire career when he clearly didn't need to cheat on tests?

 

[micdavis]

"Perhaps 'Because it's there' is not sufficient reason for climbing a mountain." Spock (Leonard Nimoy), Star Trek The Final Frontier.

Why does any one do anything risky?

Kirk thought the test was a cheat. Therefore he doesn't consider it a just thing.

Same reason he destroyed the War computers on Eminiar 7.

A moral choice just the same.

 

[Commander Max]

Kirk flat out cheating just doesn't fit with how I see the character in TOS.
The fact that he was an instructor just makes it even more out of character.

Bending rules is one thing over moral concerns or mission goals, cheating is another thing entirely.

I agree with CD. To make a captain of a starship(or any military vessel) you have to have a character that is above and beyond reproach. Cheating would mean a one way ticket out of the academy(if your caught), if you make it in to the service, you'll never sit in the captain's chair. But I'll bet your cleaning it.

Really WOK was set up to turn ST into action movies(like SW), so they could make money with the franchise. It marked the end of ST as we knew it. It was a real shame, it's not like you can't combine the ideas of Trek with action.
That movie had so many plot holes, I'm surprised it was as popular with the fans as it was. I call it a STINO(Star Trek In Name Only).

 

[SSgt Burton]

You know, I still don't get why it is considered "cheating"?

Kirk already took the test twice and failed (just like he was supposed to) twice.

There is not supposed to be a "winning" solution so it's not like failing an Algebra exam two times and then looking up the answers and passing the exam the third time (which would definitely be cheating).

So since there is no pass/fail grading with the Kobayashi Maru and the simulation is impossible to "win", why wouldn't the first two tries at it be considered his final grade?

Kirk couldn't accept that he failed. He was driven to find a solution. When he realized the test was unwinnable he wanted to have a notch in his belt by being the first cadet to "beat" the scenario. That meant reprogramming the simulation. Nobody had ever thought of trying that solution.

Does Starfleet want captains that are robots who follow the rules to the letter, or do they want people who can think outside the box?

They gave him a commendation (at least in the original timeline) remember.

Again this is why I don't care for the Trek'09 "hearing" for Kirk's actions. The line that he "cheated" stems from David Marcus' line in Star Trek II (not from any "official" Starfleet instructors or Kirk's academy records). Abrams just decided to run with that line and put Kirk on trial rather than having his instructors give him a commendation for original thinking.

So by changing Kirk's actions on the Kobayashi Maru from a source of success (1st cadet to beat the no-win scenario), to that of conflict (he cheated and was suspended) he wiped out Kirk's backstory of graduating the Academy, being assigned to vessels like the Farragut, and rising through the ranks before being given the Enterprise.

Not to mention providing our hero with "angst" that the audience can identify with, and a desire to rally against "The Man."

But again- Trek'09 was about accelerating Kirk's career from (suspended) cadet to Captain in less than two hours.


Kevin

 

[Kerr Avon]

But again- Trek'09 was about accelerating Kirk's career from (suspended) cadet to Captain in less than two hours.

And that's just the start of what's wrong with that piece of **** from Abrams.