The Hobbit - starts filming March 21

The eye is capable of discerning individual frames at least as high as 60 fps, for I have spotted glitches in video playing in real time, only to discover they were on just one field of a particular 30i frame, meaning they were on screen for 1/60th of a second.

I wonder if the grading is really the issue here, not the framerate. Most movies and TV shows are shot digitally now, after all, and that footage, ungraded, looks just as "cheap" at 24 or 30fps. It's post-production color grading (and/or using "cinema" modes, or the like, in the camera itself) that "class up" the look of these productions.* I don't see how frame rate would affect the aesthetic look of any particular frame all that much. We're talking about more than motion blur here.

*talking simply here; of course, lighting has much to do with it as well.
 
Steve, my new TV does that, it's HORRIBLE. :lol

As for the eye's sensitivity, apparently it is more complex than that - the eye has different threshholds for different things, like light, dark, definition etc. Scratches and dirt are pretty common across multiple frames, but the eye can perceive darkness for very brief instants of time indeed e.g. the time between frames; flicker does exist and perhaps scratches on single frames are seen too, I don't know. But the eye can't distinguish between separate images at a rate of more than about ten or eleven a second. If it did, the illusion of film just wouldn't work. Or something like that.

I fully agree about distance but I figure this might well be my only chance to see a film in HFR, should it not take off. If as some say it just takes a little getting used to but is amazing once you do, I believe I'll be able to adjust. Despite my bias against the TV look, I'm going in with an open mind for the film. Hope to like it, but if the adjustment is painfully impossible then I'll want to be out there bitching about it all over the Internet. :lol

I'm thanking ****** I kept hold of my old tube TV!

Agree about the separate images

The dirt on the single frame example was given me by no less a worthy than Stanley Kubrick's production assistant (Andros Epaminondas), with whom I was talking about this whole 24fs 48fs video question in the summer - he holidayed on the same Greek island as us - and as I was trying to explain the 'stepping' still present at 24fps, he furnished me with the example of how the eye retains a speck of dirt on a single frame

(He'd been with Kubrick since 1969 and was a lens expert, thereby winning K's high regard He still sees 5 movies a week and in his opinion there is a dramatic decline instandards acrossthe boa rd) Damnn this friggin' keyboaard!!
 
Yeah, dirt specks on film would not be an issue if the human eye could not discern frames at 24fps.
 
The eye is capable of discerning individual frames at least as high as 60 fps, for I have spotted glitches in video playing in real time, only to discover they were on just one field of a particular 30i frame, meaning they were on screen for 1/60th of a second.

I wonder if the grading is really the issue here, not the framerate. Most movies and TV shows are shot digitally now, after all, and that footage, ungraded, looks just as "cheap" at 24 or 30fps. It's post-production color grading (and/or using "cinema" modes, or the like, in the camera itself) that "class up" the look of these productions.* I don't see how frame rate would affect the aesthetic look of any particular frame all that much. We're talking about more than motion blur here.

*talking simply here; of course, lighting has much to do with it as well.

It's frame rate entirely

When I play back my camcorder stuff at halfspeed it suddenly looks much more like FILM

Put it back to normal frame rate and it turns back into video

Here's some vid I shot played back at half frame rate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfpSMwXrnLc

Resolution, lighting etc are irrelevant, as amateur film shot on Super 8 with flipping monkeys holding the camera is still going to look like FILM

Such an amateur movie would have more in common with Lawrence of Arabia than a TV show shot on video in terms of this quality of 'flicker' and 'distance' that me and martyn were talking about
 
Sorry, that doesn't look like film, it looks like video slowed down.

There is more to "film look" than framerate. Hell, look at a single frame of film (eliminating the issue of rate entirely) and it's discernible from a single frame of ungraded video (no matter the resolution).
 
Heh, no of course it doesn't look exactly like film and I'm certainly not claiming that a frame of vid is indistinguishable from a frame of film

But slowed to halfspeed video has a filmish flicker, a filmish 'distance', that is entirely lacking in video going at 50fs

While I take your point regarding the difference in look between a frame of vid and a frame of film, nevertheless, as I said, I've seen new tech manage to turn Coppola's The Conversation into something that looked so like video and so unlike film that it became unwatchable

This tech had simulated some sort of frame rate fill-in, hence my fears for 48fps
 
I have watched this movie twice in the last two days! Love it! Really well done without a slow part in it.
 
I've seen new tech manage to turn Coppola's The Conversation into something that looked so like video and so unlike film that it became unwatchable
Oh yeah, I hate those TV modes too. Whatever the movie was created in, that's what should be presented.
 
I wonder if the grading is really the issue here, not the framerate.

That was what we were promised after the 22 minutes shown at the exhibitor's convention earlier in the year. Doesn't seem that tweaking has taken the curse off, however.

I'm thanking ****** I kept hold of my old tube TV!

If you get the chance to pick up a flat screen modern TV, grab it with both hands mate. You will thank me later! These modes aren't the default (or damn well shouldn't be) and can be turned on or off.

Sorry, that doesn't look like film, it looks like video slowed down.

It takes the 'yuck' of the video look off though, doesn't it? Does to me. Also a great excuse to show off Steve's GF dancing in her undies. Thanks Steve. :lol

While I take your point regarding the difference in look between a frame of vid and a frame of film, nevertheless, as I said, I've seen new tech manage to turn Coppola's The Conversation into something that looked so like video and so unlike film that it became unwatchable

This tech had simulated some sort of frame rate fill-in, hence my fears for 48fps

One thing I thought smoothing could be useful for was 'upgrading' older animated films like Nausicaa, so I watched that on my TV with motion smoothing enabled to see whether the low original frame rate of the animation is offset by the interpolated frames.

It sort of works. It gets dramatically thrown off by pans, though, where the camera is usually panning across a non-animated painted backdrop. That gets very weird.
 
Ha ha, shhh Martyn don't tell - that was honestly the only half-rate vid I can link to!

(Figured only a few frame-rate heads are gonna be bothered to check it, it's not like it's in the Hawtness thread or anything)

So, you can turn that frame-interpolation thing off on these TVs - you couldn't on that TV I saw the Coppola movie on, but that was almost ten years back


Back to The Hobbit - I gather there's no full Smaug shots this time round

Glad to have the chance to adjust to this fact before viewing!
 
You can turn it off on Sony and LG LCD tv's. Haven't tested others.

However, some movies just DO look cheap once hitting the video market. Just watched Captain America yesterday and boy did that look like a shot for TV movie. Hadn't seen that in the theater before so cannot compare. I saw The Avengers in the theater, but on BR it had the same "cheap" production look to it when watching it... and for many months previously I've had the motion-flow set on standard and had no issues, but when those two films came on, it suddenly looked like shot for tv movies. Watched Thor just before that - no issue. So now I know I have to shut motion-flow off completely for some movies.

When motion-flow is set to high ALL movies look like crap. Just funny I could watch movies and not have them look like crap with it turned on at standard setting, while I couldn't even watch movies in low setting on my mom's LG tv. Weird.

So... it's not just the motion-flow... it's also how it was shot and the post-processing and how it was tinkered with for the video market, 'cause I do not remember The Avengers looking like that at the theater.

That really pissed me off if it is a tinkering for the video transfer that ****ed up that movie.
 
Ha ha, shhh Martyn don't tell - that was honestly the only half-rate vid I can link to!

:lol

So, you can turn that frame-interpolation thing off on these TVs - you couldn't on that TV I saw the Coppola movie on, but that was almost ten years back

Yeah. Mine's a Samsung; it comes with about five different strength settings for this tech, from "decaffeinated" to "heart attack in a mug"; as TMG indicates above this is pretty common now.

Back to The Hobbit - I gather there's no full Smaug shots this time round

Bugger!

No, but the last scene is quite promising in that respect...

Yay!!!

However, some movies just DO look cheap once hitting the video market. Just watched Captain America yesterday and boy did that look like a shot for TV movie.

So does GI Joe - eye-gougingly bad IMO.
 
Apart from improving low frame rate anime, about the only use then for this 'motion-flow' TV tech would be to bump up old Super 8 home cine movies so they looked 24fps! I really cannot see any other uses for it at all. (Yep - a full-stop. New keyboard!)
 
I was watching Brave last night, and it got me thinking that CGI films would actually benefit from this more than live action, at least as a starting point to get people used to it.

It seems to work okay when used on "artificial" sources. Look at video games, no one would ever want to play a video game at only 24fps. 60fps is considered the "gold standard", especially for PC games.
 
Perhaps I adjusted, but just saw it for my second time with the new frame rate in the IMAX. I didn't have that 'few minutes' it takes to get use to it this go around and it surprisingly didn't bother me, whatsoever. I enjoyed it FAR better this time and they didn't seem to 'move funny.' Don't know why that is unless my brain has just accepted it now, but I still have no issue with the standard rate we're use to viewing films. This time I was allowed to enjoy other things because I wasn't distracted with the way it moved.


I actually had pretty much the same experience. The first time I saw it I was also a bit more tired, so I think my eyes/brain were strained a little more. I haven't seen it in the IMAX (which as I understand it is a different frame rate than the HFR?) I read that at least one person saw the HFR first, and IMAX after that and felt that the IMAX was fuzzy/blurry. I saw it in the HFR both times, and I felt the clarity was amazing. The first time around this actually bothered me a little bit as I felt there were scenes where I could blatantly tell that I was on a film set. The second time around though this didn't really bother me nearly as much. Can't explain why. I do still feel that pretty much any scene with Radagast, and that stupid land sled, were pretty bad. They felt very green screen.
 
I was finally going to go today - we already bought our tickets for 4:10pm... our first time when those of us who wanted to go together all have had nothing going on and.... it's a blizzard outside!!!

We are going to leave the house at 2:45... if it lets up at all and a plow goes through. Otherwise, we're hoping the theater will refund our tickets.

*sigh*
 
OK, just back from the cinema. Wow. This may get longwinded, apologies in advance.

Once in a while I feel a little embarrassment at being Mr. Middle Of The Road all the damn time. My politics are centrist-ish, I'm pro consensus and peacemaking, I dislike extremism, I like vanilla, etc. And guess what? I loved 50% of the cinematography in this film, and didn't love the other 50%. So once again I can't give a hard 'no sir I don't like it', and I can't give a "yay HFR" either. Not on the whole film. But I can give both opinions for BITS of the film. Gah...

I didn't expect that HFR would produce such schizophrenic results. People have alluded to the way it supports some types of shots while detracting from others, but I didn't realise the distinction would be so sharp. Half the shots work unbelievably well, the other half are brain-hurtingly videotastic.

I completely agree with those who have said that it's nothing to do with lighting, quality of sets or costumes or any of that sort of thing. And it's absolutely not an arbitrary "association" with cheap productions - sorry TMBountyHunter, you were way off the mark there IMO. The shots that don't work DO NOT WORK and it's not because anything IN the shots looks cheap...it's the actual footage, it just plain looks jarringly wrong. Lighting, performances, staging etc are as good as any of the shots that work - costumes, sets etc are all stellar; there's very little of the styrofoam statue look in this film, unlike LOTR. It's not colour grading. It's that half the shots just don't work.

As far as I could tell the polarisation is due to the HFR working unbelievably well to improve the clarity and detail in some categories of shots without subtracting anything aesthetically - while in other categories it adds little and DOES subtract from the aesthetics.

The good:

* tracking shots both aerial and ground based look fantastic; most of the many shots where the camera pulls back or trucks forward chasing the characters are just great
* wide shots with a locked camera and deep, deep backgrounds absolutely justify the "future of cinema" hype - dear GOD were those beautiful, especially Rivendell and various landscapes. The clarity and detail has to be seen to be believed. Utter works of art, those shots...just wow. I can't say it enough - revelatory!
* action scenes CAN look good but I found there was some patchiness. Possibly the fast intercutting of types of shots which work with others that don't
* still camera middle to close shots where characters just talk and don't move work fine...better than fine really.

The bad:

* panning and tilting shots; really anything where the camera moves laterally instead of longitudinally, basically. They go videotastic straight away
* character closeups where someone turns or moves at anything other than slow pacing speed. Same effect as a camera move. Makes me wonder whether Galadriel's slow stalk around the meeting table was for camera/frame-rate reasons
* shots in which foreground objects with edges give way to middle-distance, as with, say, a reveal of a path behind a boulder. Instant video look again.

Consistently through the film I found that just as I thought I might have adjusted to the HFR look, another shot would pop up that looked as nasty as ever.

None of it destroyed my enjoyment of the film at all, I had a great time; loved the film and had the sense most of the audience did too. Plenty of laughter at the jokes and nobody left the cinema through the running time, even for a toilet break. It's very long, but it's not 'Amadeus'. No fidgeting problems.

I think my tentative opinion would be that HFR should be used for some kinds of shots and until some way is found to make it look good in the others, they should be shot 24FPS. Unfortunately, eliminating staccato motion in pans is one of the big draws for filmmakers, I guess...you absolutely can see insane amounts of detail; it's just not worth the tradeoff in believability, IMO.
 
I think my tentative opinion would be that HFR should be used for some kinds of shots and until some way is found to make it look good in the others, they should be shot 24FPS. Unfortunately, eliminating staccato motion in pans is one of the big draws for filmmakers, I guess...you absolutely can see insane amounts of detail; it's just not worth the tradeoff in believability, IMO.
Again, I think it comes down to which frame rate they use. This is a good time to start experimenting with frame rates to see which gives the same natural feel to the motions and the overall speed of the actions as 24fps, and at the same time eliminates the staccato pan look.

As said before, like strobe light turned up and down you see a speeding up and slowing down of the actions you perform - the same is true with frame rates. Pick the wrong frame rate and things may look too slow or too fast. We need to find the one that is just right, the equal to 24fps but fixing that speeds flaws, and 48fps just isn't it.

The Hobbit is NOT a failure of faster frame rates. It's a failure of the usage of 48fps to become standard. Something better needs to be found.

I'm currently looking forward to James Cameron's Avatar sequels to check out the faster frame rate he's going to use.
 
I think my tentative opinion would be that HFR should be used for some kinds of shots and until some way is found to make it look good in the others, they should be shot 24FPS.

Not sure if shooting at a variable rate would have good results when projected; until such a thing as a variable frame rate projector is invented, the 24fps stuff would have to repeat every frame so that the entire film could be projected at 48, and the switching back and forth might be even more jarring. Would be an interesting experiment, though.
 
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