The Fate of the ANH Helmet Turned ESB

[Too Much Garlic]

I'm bored and we haven't had a very long, interesting Vader helmet thread in a long time, and realizing that many may not want to go through several 20-40 page threads to find this, I present my ONE theory, which I hope really isn't true... but anyway haven't found anything conclusive to disprove the possibility yet.

This is a repost, so some of the points may not be crystal clear compared to what we know now. This was first presented some two years ago. Many of the old-timers may roll their eyes at this.

Anyway, here goes:

Here's what I believe happened to the original ANH screen worn helmet:

First is the illusive Elstree Props picture:

What makes this the real deal is several things, but let's first focus on the lenses. It all started in a conversation about lenses, where the Elstree Props picture was mentioned as well as the VP. I checked the pictures and with the photographic distortion on the Elstree Props picture it was clear that the two were identical... AND... shared nicks and artifacts on the lenses. This lead me to making this comparison picture - thanks to AnsonJames for posting those wonderful VP pictures:

But in order to determine that the Elstree Props picture is the real helmet, I had to look at pictures and screen captures of the real deal. Well, SithLord beat me to it and showed it on the RPF - hope it's okay that I repost the pictures here:

Proving that the Tantive lenses are the same as those on the Elstree Props picture.

I dug deeper and found a promotional picture from ANH and a Kermit Eller tour picture also having that vertical scratch in the left eye - however, the pictures are too inconclusive to be proper proof, but I found that it was intriguing and decided to post them anyway.

Here we begin to venture into my theory - it is just THEORY as I haven't yet been able to find irrefutable proof, just suggestive pictures that may or may not support my theory. My theory basically goes that the ANH screen mask was turned into an ESB and seen briefly in both photographs and in ESB and RotJ. You will perhaps feel I'm reaching, but please hear me out and look at the pictures and make up your own mind. This is a theory I am not particularly happy about, as if it's true, then the original ANH screen worn helmet is no more and can now only be seen as an ESB converted piece.

First we have the Hoth helmet - could very well be the screen worn ANH. It is not possible to determine much from the screen captures, as it is seen only for a short moment and not up close, but there is a picture of Kenny Baker wearing what seems to be the Hoth Helmet and it looks way more worn and different from the regular ESB helmets:

The reason for these helmets' inclusion in this theory is because of the ANH chin vent, clearly different paint shine and the suggestiveness of the Kenny Baker shot, but the link to THE ANH with this helmet is a bit inconclusive as the reference is not good enough. It may be a different helmet altogether.

But... it leads me to my further ramblings, which is the one shot Dagobah helmet. It seems to be way sharper than the regular ESB helmets and a more ANH paint-job - check the black line at the top of the nose. It also has a very sharp Y-crease, but I haven't looked at the dome at all regarding this theory, just the facemask. It could be the original ANH turned ESB or just a standard ESB dome that turned out sharper at the peak than the rest.

The reason I added the Dagobah helmet to the mix, not having been able to really find any irrefutable evidence that it is the ANH, is because of this following shot, which shows Warwick Davis at the time of RotJ, wearing a an ESB style helmet that seems to share an awful lot of details with the Elstree Props ANH picture:

This is a very interesting helmet, imo, because the mesh pattern and widows peak detail seems to match the Dagobah helmet.
Like this:

The thing with the Warwick Davis picture is that it was taken during RotJ and you can check his website to confirm that it IS a picture of him wearing that mask:
'Darth' Davis | Warwick Davis Official Website

Which leads me to this: the only helmet in RotJ that looked remarkably different to the rest was the brief seen just before the reveal scene. That was clearly an ESB style helmet. BUT, following the logic that the ANH was turned ESB and didn't look like the regular ESB's and this one being ESB but looking remarkably like that Dagobah helmet... then maybe this is a shot of the converted ANH:

And paired with the Warwick Davis picture

You saw earlier how I matched some things between the Elstree Props picture and the VP. With this following picture I'm listing 7 points that the Warwick Davis helmet has in common - as far as I can see - with the Elstree Props and the VP:

Which leads me to the sad conclusion of my theory that the original ANH IS NO MORE - at least not as we saw it on screen - but still exists and was converted into an ESB style helmet that we see in both ESB and RotJ and pictures.

PLEASE PROVE MY THEORY WRONG... I'm just too tired to try myself right now.

 

[Art Andrews]

I know very little about Vader but unless I wasn't listening closely all the times he tries to talk to me about Vader, I believe Gino is of the same opinion as you. This wouldn't be surprising at all to me considering the other pieces from ANH that were repainted for ESB and even some ESB pieces that were repainted for Jedi. In a way, it is sad to believe that the ANH Vader is likely no more, but then again, back in the day, no one cared about preservation of what would become an icon of evil.

 

[Howard]

Fantastic work.

 

[Darth Niob]

Very interesting read Carsten...thanks for that. And yes, seeing all these comparison shots and the 7 points you listed it really seems that the ANh helmet isnt longer an ANH :cry And i'm really sorry about that.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

The whole thing was actually spurred on by the claim by SL that the VP lenses didn't match the original. That's when I started looking through the pictures, finding those that had the horizontal scratch in the right eye (left in pictures)... and once done with the ANH reference I moved on to the ESB and RotJ and that was when I stumbled upon the Warwick Davis picture... and was floored. The original purpose was just to show that the VP lenses were the original ANH lenses, but it became much more than that.

 

[CGClone]

I wish I had something to refute the incredible evidence before us. Now I must dig out the Vader pics I have taken and see if any of the scratches match up.

As Art said, its sad that it was converted. Laving us with the Rick Baker mold being the closest thing now? or converting an ESB lineage back to ANH - its all in the blood somehow?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I wish I had something to refute the incredible evidence before us. Now I must dig out the Vader pics I have taken and see if any of the scratches match up.

That would be cool. There are several things to look for, but the scratch in the lens would be the one thing to look for the most, as that was the one that started this whole mess. Seeing it on the VP and then on the Elstree Carpet picture and then on pictures of the original on tour, etc.

If the original ANH is found, there will still be a lot of things answered, even though it's not ANH style anymore.

As Art said, its sad that it was converted. Laving us with the Rick Baker mold being the closest thing now? or converting an ESB lineage back to ANH - its all in the blood somehow?

No, the Rick Baker is only second best. To get the best you'd need a clean pull from the UK mold. THAT is 100% Tantive.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

CGC... I just re-read your post, realizing I just sorta responded without really thinking. You may have mentioned it before, but what pictures are you talking about here? You been to the archives or gotten access to LFL stuff?

 

[CGClone]

Nothing fancy TMG, just various shots from various places.

Whats the helmet on tour now with Where Science meets Imagination? ROTJ?

 

[SithLord]

Although some of the things that lead up to the endpoint I don't necessarily agree with (can get into it later), the endpoint namely the Warick Davis mask I agree on...

Ya this was quite some time ago we had this discussion and since then, although I hadn't mentioned it yet, I did find that the curvature on the VP lenses....the unique difference in shape of the left vs right lens and the discontinuity of shape on the left lens in particular matches the SL lenses. The horizontal scratch on the right lens I thought (and tried to show) at the time was higher than I think it should be. That glue residue you try to point out on the lower part of the left lens I could not really appreciate from the Warwick helmet photo, but I'll check the SL for that. I'm not convinced on the detail on the left side of the mouth triangle. The nicks on the side of the tooth are there on any authentic casting so that's not really indicative of anything. But that is almost all moot in my mind as I do agree with the endpoint. However, matching it to a screen ROTJ mask is something I can try to do unless you've done it already unequivocally...because you suggest it appears onscreen in ROTJ.

I am always prepared to discuss authentic castings if people are willing to have an open mind and look at photographic reference without taking things personally or assuming ulterior motives.

I could easily have a TD vs SL vs TM vs VP vs eFX thread, but I would get the usual flak about pushing my own castings, so why should I bother? I don't see anyone else discussing details of castings...and it is almost like a gag order. So it is no surprise things have been dead.

But anyway cudos on the theory....any theory I think is a good theory because it leads us to examine the history and lineage of these castings further...

 

[SithLord]

No, the Rick Baker is only second best. To get the best you'd need a clean pull from the UK mold. THAT is 100% Tantive.

Oh, you mean like this? :lol

 

[Too Much Garlic]

That's not a clean pull and you know it, so stop flaunting it as such. It is just as flawed as the TM, but for other reasons. The VP is cleaned up, but still retains lots of accurate details.

And yes, much have changed since that original post of my theory 2 years ago, so it is not entirely up to date. I decided to just post it as is and not add/change anything. That could be for the further discussion. Personally, I don't see anything being completely wrong, and I do say that I haven't found the link to the Hoth, Rolling Helmet & the one seen in the end RotJ scene before the reveal. Those may still be completely separate helmets from the ANH turned ESB... and yes, some of the details I highlighted in that last picture is indeed part of nearly all accurate casts, so not really proof of anything.

CGC, still cool though and would love to see what you have, if you are able to show it.

 

[SithLord]

Heh, well I don't even know what mold it came from. But if you look at things like noseslots, eyebrows, teeth, for example, nothing beats it...

But as Darth Jones said, the ILM mold came from the ANH helmet when it was in essentially the same condition as we see it on the Tantive IV, with the exception of the filled tube undercuts and minor things here and there...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Yes, but has he seen a UK mold faceplate up close and personal to make that deduction? Of course, I don't know what he has access to, so maybe he's right. I'm just still seeing things that doesn't add up.

People used to say that the 20th C helmets were the closest thing and had all the details of the ANH... but it's only scratching the surface of all those details that we have been catered to being on the casts of the really high end helmets, from when they came into the hobby.

Unless you know what should be there and how much actually IS there on the casts... it's easy to make assertions as to whether something is as close as possible.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

No, the Rick Baker is only second best. To get the best you'd need a clean pull from the UK mold. THAT is 100% Tantive.

Is this not the "golden egg" we are all still waiting on? Nothing has been shown to be 100% unaltered from the mold. I had forgotten about this topic all together.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

The golden egg we are all still waiting for is indeed a clean, unaltered pull from the UK molds to fall into our hands.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

I always find this topic amazing in its simplicity, yet people want to think that more and more pieces were made for each film. That Hoth helmet shot chin vent says a lot to me.

 

[SithLord]

Yes, but has he seen a UK mold faceplate up close and personal to make that deduction? Of course, I don't know what he has access to, so maybe he's right. I'm just still seeing things that doesn't add up.

Unless you know what should be there and how much actually IS there on the casts... it's easy to make assertions as to whether something is as close as possible.

Well he has or had access to the same EDIT: [kind of ]pull that I have, and he's seen a pull from "a" UK mold, and I think he knows just how good a pull from the ILM mold really is.

I know what should be there if it is Tantive IV because I have good enough reference to make that conclusion. But of course the proof is in the pudding and I have to be able to show that.

But, we could go back and forth again about this and nobody has to take what I say, or even what I show, as evidence or whatever. Instead, maybe we could make a list of things as you say that don't add up and try to reach and understanding or common ground on those things.

I would just keep in mind that when I first started to distinguish between UK vs US masks it was in relation to the masks, not necessarily to definite molds. The US mold would be the ILM mold, or is it? Or so you would think...:love But then again, nobody seemed to know that Rick Baker made the ILM mold until I mentioned it. But there is more to that mold than people realize, or seem to know.

But anyway, just so we are clear that there could have been a mold taken earlier than the ILM mold from the original screen mask, but the identity of that mold or molds is unknown. We just have a clear lineage of some kind relating masks that have the chin vent and the tabs. But I don't lump them together as coming all from one single mold. I think you agree on that. But personally I would rather refer to UK vs US masks rather than UK vs US molds.

 

[SithLord]

Is this not the "golden egg" we are all still waiting on? Nothing has been shown to be 100% unaltered from the mold. I had forgotten about this topic all together.

I agree we don't have a perfect casting. The TD is I think the closest except for the tube ends and something else I found recently...but it is painted and so I couldn't say it is perfect unless I stripped it down and really examined it. Maybe the father of the TM is the closest, that would be interesting to see.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Wow...that coming from you is a big step. You are talking the TM pre-tube resculpt, right?