The Batman

[batguy]

Right now I still think the Pattinson casting choice is capable of working. But it remains to be seen whether it will.

Either way we're talking about the Batman movies. Making risky casting choices is almost a good luck ritual. Putting Pattinson in a Batsuit is no crazier than hiring Tom Hardy for Bane. Keaton for Batman. Ledger for the Joker. Colin Farrell for the Penguin. Etc.


As for the origin story? I don't really care what they do, as long as they don't waste a lot of screen time on it.

 

[joberg]

Catwoman -

I agree that she was the best thing in 'Returns.' That movie nailed the unpredictability & sheer pyschosis of the character as well as it's ever been done.

Chris Nolan's Catwoman was a totally sane person who switched sides out of pragmatism. It was perfect for the Nolan-verse but it was not in line with the classic character.


Penguin -

The Danny DeVito version is typical of what is wrong with 'Returns' IMO. The repulsive design was way overdone. It could have worked fine as a boss villain who only had a few minutes of screen time. But as such a main character . . . it feels like looking at a bloated rotting dead fish for two hours. Wait, I paid money for this?

It was all the more frustrating because DeVito's character wasn't just a throwaway boss villain in the dramatic sense. The movie did flesh out his character and make him 3-dimensional.

As for the new one, I agree that Colin Farrell might steal the show this time. I wasn't sold on the idea of casting him (it seems like a poor use of resources) but the early clips look good.

Well, for me The Penguin was DeVito best role IMO...he really played it per Burton's directions.

 

[Ron]

Batman Returns is like Shakespeare compared to Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. To my understanding the only reason Burton didn't direct a third was that he was involved in other projects and the studio had no interest in waiting for him to be available again. If anything should be considered a Batman parody it's the Schumacher films.

I've seen Tim Burton say in an interview that the studio didn't want him to do a 3rd one.

After 'Returns' he recalled that they were trying to be nice about it, like "Wouldn't you rather be doing something more personal?" etc. Then he asked them point-blank if they didn't want him to do the 3rd one, and they confirmed it.


The Schumacher movies seemed more like an update of the Adam West era than a continuation of the Tim Burton era. I found them totally unwatchable.

Yeah Burton was heavily asked not to do a third one because Returns "did not meet expectations."

Its reviews were mixed but apparently it was split between too light-hearted and too dark which did a number of selling toys and McDonalds happy meals. Apparently, McDs got complaints from parents and had to state they were selling happy meals based on the Batman character, not promoting the movie.

It is a bit extreme in that sense. There are some fun silly moments like the Batmobile getting armored, controlled by an arcade game, and penguins with rockets that is contrasted with abandoned children, killing a dude by sticking a pen in his neck, and just straight up murder.

I do think Rises did a good job with Catwoman but Returns' Pfeiffer still has the best depiction of insane, attractive, dark heroine whom you dont know is an ally or an enemy. Catwoman nowadays is usually always depicted as a good guy now.

Right. After "Returns", Warner Bros. got some "push-back" from Karen type parents and groups that the movie was too violent and McDonald's received a few angry letters about them selling toys associated with it. Warner, not wanting to upset McDonald's, and both being typical corporations that will sway to the whims of a vocal minority, decided they'd rather move away from Burton. Keaton, not having faith in Schumacher (and Warner not wanting to pay his asking price), left the role. I'm sure Elfman would have stayed along if Burton had as well. Which leads to...

"I'll get Drive Through"
Its the only line I remember... funny that!

There's no way this joke was thrown in by accident. In fact, you guys might remember a McDonald's commercial at the time used this clip.

Batman Forever's opening dialogue was basically an advertisement.

 

[Mottrex]

Right. After "Returns", Warner Bros. got some "push-back" from Karen type parents and groups that the movie was too violent and McDonald's received a few angry letters about them selling toys associated with it. Warner, not wanting to upset McDonald's, and both being typical corporations that will sway to the whims of a vocal minority, decided they'd rather move away from Burton. Keaton, not having faith in Schumacher (and Warner not wanting to pay his asking price), left the role. I'm sure Elfman would have stayed along if Burton had as well. Which leads to...

There's no way this joke was thrown in by accident. In fact, you guys might remember a McDonald's commercial at the time used this clip.

Batman Forever's opening dialogue was basically an advertisement.

Yeah it was there on purpose, there was a lot of controversy in the tabloids over here in the UK with the forced advertising in Batman.. but then anything concerning McDonald's and Happy Meals usually did back then...

 

[Halliwax]

Well, for me The Penguin was DeVito best role IMO...he really played it per Burton's directions.

Me too! He will always be penguin to me

 

[Psab keel]

Thank you all for the insight. I wasn't aware of the product tie ins and the behind the scenes issues with the studios.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

I think it was due to how successful the marketing (artificial or no) of the first Burton Batman was that made the tie-in's progressively worse over time. Nicholson, as per his contract with the Joker role, was given control of his likeness as the Joker and anything related to it he made money off of. It is the single best deal any actor has ever got for a part and it still pays him dividends to this day 30+ years later (also why there's so few '89 Joker stuff now). It's something studios haven't given out since and I think the reason why is clear.

 

[Psab keel]

I'd heard about that deal. Freaking brilliant business move!

 

[The Goon]

I don’t think we need a origin story, do what they did with spiderman

Unless it's a brand new character that we've never heard of before, I don't think we ever need another origin story. We certainly don't need one for Batman at this point, and anyone who doesn't know why Bruce Wayne does what he does should do the research on their own.

 

[batguy]

Right. After "Returns", Warner Bros. got some "push-back" from Karen type parents and groups that the movie was too violent and McDonald's received a few angry letters about them selling toys associated with it. Warner, not wanting to upset McDonald's, and both being typical corporations that will sway to the whims of a vocal minority, decided they'd rather move away from Burton.

The blowback against 'Returns' went way beyond a few vocal Karens. It was box office, critic reviews, audience feedback, toy sales, etc. Opinions varied but the ranking was broadly clear. The second movie was much less popular than the first.

Batman is a mainstream tentpole franchise. Most viewers have mainstream wants. Look at the cinema world today: Tim-Burton-style movies are still being made. So are big action tentpole Batman movies. Which one earns more money as a rule?

The first '89 movie had a pretty good dose of Tim Burton. It proved to be just enough, in just the right ways. They gave the sequel a much bigger dose of Burton in 1992 and it proved to be past the tipping point for the mainstream audience.


Looking back, I think it could be argued that 'Returns' was way ahead of its time. Today everyone has seen enough tentpole versions of Batman that we are more receptive to variations on the theme. The Joachim Phoenix 'Joker' flick was a step outside the franchise lines and it was a big hit.

 

[Mottrex]

Well, for me The Penguin was DeVito best role IMO...he really played it per Burton's directions.

Yeah I loved the slimey Toxic Waste look stamped with TBs iconic feel..
MP was Amazingly different to anything she's done since.. meow!

 

[agent5]

I think it was due to how successful the marketing (artificial or no) of the first Burton Batman was that made the tie-in's progressively worse over time. Nicholson, as per his contract with the Joker role, was given control of his likeness as the Joker and anything related to it he made money off of. It is the single best deal any actor has ever got for a part and it still pays him dividends to this day 30+ years later (also why there's so few '89 Joker stuff now). It's something studios haven't given out since and I think the reason why is clear.

I think Alec Guinness has him beat. His Star Wars royalties (2.25% of the films gross) had to have been massive.

 

[sbaxter]

This new Batmobile looks like a heavily modified muscle car that's built for serious abuse. I like the parred back design because it feels more utilitarian and functional. I could buy the idea that Bruce did the modifications himself. I always loved in the Animated Series how Bruce was always tinkering or repairing his ride. I could see them doing that in this movie too.

I will say I like the general idea of the car in this movie, though I still have conceptual issues with pars of it. None of the Batmnan films have, from my point of view, hinged on the design of the car, but pretty much all of them fail, in my mind, to mesh well with the concept of the character. Batman is pretty consistently shown in both the comics and the films as the epitome of stealth, and the big, loud, flashy car with flames spewing out the back (that last feature being one the new movie obviously retains) seems directly at odds with that persona. Batman is the guy who vanishes in moment you look away from him, but how the heck can he do that driving the cars we've seen in the past? In today's world, especially, how could he realistically drive the thing back to the Batcave without being tracked?

Mind you, if I were in charge, Batman would be essentially Iron Man in flat-black armor. Maybe he wouldn't fly, per se, but he'd have something like Iron Man's repulsors if only to enable him to soft-land in case of a fall. For some reason, I just have a hard time accepting that Batman as we've previously seen him would be able to survive more than a few weeks at best doing what he does without armor roughly equivalent to Tony Stark's. Maybe he could make the eyes glow red when he wants, just to add a little extra to the intimidation factor. People always say the character is cool partly because he has no super powers, but I disagree -- his power is that he never falls anywhere except where there's a handy ledge or flagpole or something he can grab.

SSB

 

[sbaxter]

Interesting. I've grown even fonder of "Returns" over the years.

There are parts of it I like, but turning the Penguin into what looks like an alien from another planet really turned me off. My main problem was really the same issue I had with the '89 film -- Gotham City as presented therein is so over-the-top oppressive (looking as if it were designed all at once by one person, because it essentially was) that I cannot imagine why anyone physically capable of getting out would stay there for more than five minutes.

SSB

 

[Psab keel]

Gotham is one of the things I loved (and still love) about the Burton films. Despite the fact that the design is heavy it also feels like a character unto itself and created an atmosphere that lent itself to Burton's dark vision. As much as I love the Nolan films Gotham isn't as dynamic a setting in his triloigy and it looks like Chicago which is where it was filmed from what I recall. It's one of the only things I felt was lacking in them, but it's a minor gripe.

As far as the Batmobile design I don't take too much issue with it being non stealth. I mean it has been shown in different iterations to have stealth mode, but even back to the first comics the car was always designed to stand out. Batman himself may be a master of disguise and invisibility, being able to slip in and out of scenarios with ease but his car was designed to outrun everyone which implies it's got serious power. Who cares if your car looks weird if you can go faster than them all? Given all the security systems on that thing I'd imagine it would be able to detect tracking devices and this is something brought up in the movies.

Come to think of it, seeing the way the Batmobile is being driven in that scene with the Penguin being chased, I'd imagine it's just one more tool in Bruce's arsenal to try and intimidate his enemies much like his Bat persona is meant to strike fear into them. His Grapple gun being able to catch every time or him being able to break his fall by grabbing things is where I can suspend my disbelief. If Spiderman- a teenage science nerd can create a webshooter that can suspend him swinging through the streets the same way as Batman, I can accept both ideas. One uses superpowers and the other uses superwealth. If anything wealth and intelligence are Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark's superpowers. I supposed they both have that in common.

 

[MattBlack]

Gotham is one of the things I loved (and still love) about the Burton films. Despite the fact that the design is heavy it also feels like a character unto itself and created an atmosphere that lent itself to Burton's dark vision.

Agreed. Anton Furst was an awesome talent.

 

[The Goon]

I will say I like the general idea of the car in this movie, though I still have conceptual issues with pars of it. None of the Batmnan films have, from my point of view, hinged on the design of the car, but pretty much all of them fail, in my mind, to mesh well with the concept of the character. Batman is pretty consistently shown in both the comics and the films as the epitome of stealth, and the big, loud, flashy car with flames spewing out the back (that last feature being one the new movie obviously retains) seems directly at odds with that persona. Batman is the guy who vanishes in moment you look away from him, but how the heck can he do that driving the cars we've seen in the past? In today's world, especially, how could he realistically drive the thing back to the Batcave without being tracked?

Mind you, if I were in charge, Batman would be essentially Iron Man in flat-black armor. Maybe he wouldn't fly, per se, but he'd have something like Iron Man's repulsors if only to enable him to soft-land in case of a fall. For some reason, I just have a hard time accepting that Batman as we've previously seen him would be able to survive more than a few weeks at best doing what he does without armor roughly equivalent to Tony Stark's. Maybe he could make the eyes glow red when he wants, just to add a little extra to the intimidation factor. People always say the character is cool partly because he has no super powers, but I disagree -- his power is that he never falls anywhere except where there's a handy ledge or flagpole or something he can grab.

SSB

Everything you've mentioned here is exactly why a person like Bruce Wayne/Batman could never work in the real world. He's a bazillionaire, over 6 feet tall and very muscular, and he spends his nights driving and swinging around the city dressed like a bat. Sure he's stealthy in the comic books because you can cheat a lot of things in that medium, but in a real world setting everything about Batman stands out like a sore thumb and makes him anything but stealthy. If he really wanted to be stealthy the Batmobile would be a relatively quiet race car under the skin, but on the outside look like an old taxicab so that no one would pay any attention to it. And Bruce Wayne would be a master of disguise and blend in as well rather than looking like a bad date for RuPaul.

 

[HeartBlade]

Batman has become the new James Bond in that regard. The person playing Bond in the first James Bond movie people saw was usually their favorite Bond. If you were old enough, that was Sean Connery, younger it might have been Roger Moore or Timothy Dalton, and so on. Now we can tell approximately how old someone is by which Batman is their favorite. I was born in '61 so Adam West was my first Batman. I liked him and the show, and still do, but having read the comic books as well it's difficult to say he's my favorite Batman just because the show was so campy and silly and unlike the comic books.

Counterpoint

We havent had a James Bond movie that everyone absolutely despised, even the actor like we had in Batman and Robin.

We've also never had a Bond movie where the director's commentary consisted of the director apologizing to viewers and accepting blame for the its poor critical reception lol.

 

[Psab keel]

Clooney himself thought he'd single handedly ruined Batman as a franchise.

 

[HeartBlade]

Regarding a real-life Batman, I do think in many ways he has become a little outdated.

Given how weapons and technology have progressed, it would make more sense for a billionaire would have some sort of robotic armor like Ironman although Batman is probably scared of the fact that someone could defeat him by hacking his armor, hence choosing more "controllable" gadgets.

I do think alot of people misunderstand Batman though. He seems to be depicted now as a heartless billionaire beating up people for fun or misguided revenge when in reality, he is quite compassionate and doing things "his way" because there are no alternatives.

Gotham PD (pre-Batman) was insanely corrupt with Gordon being the only legitimate officer, everything was controlled by gangs, and people were impoverished. Batman the vigilante was needed to fight against the gangs because no one else would (the justice system and police were in their pocket). Bruce probably also does hire people and try to give them opportunities in Wayne Enterprises but as a single company, he can only do so much (also wouldnt exactly be riveting to watch Bruce go through thousands of files and paper work attending meetings and balancing the budget). Donating to fund raisers and other charities probably just funnels money into the pockets of the very gangs he is opposing in Gotham.

Then again, it does raise the question why normal people bother living in Gotham when Metropolis is not so far away with superman protecting you and a more thriving economy or even Central City which is protected by Flash who is generally depicted as the most friendly of the Justice League members.