TDK - did the Joker win? Your thoughts.

[Hecubus114]

So would you say that the people on the ferries were better than Harvey, or that the Joker just "pushed" him harder?

You all make an excellent point that the Joker doesn't care about himself. And while he didn't get the widespread chaos he wanted, he nonetheless did **** up arguably the two people who mattered most.

That's why its a win AND lose for the Joker. He accomplished everything he himself set out to accomplish - it just didn't have the effect he expected it to. I think an ideal ending for the Joker would have been: Dent goes on a killing spree, it destroys everyone's hope of ever having a clean city, and Batman's only way of stopping the Joker is to kill him. The first thing went exactly how we wanted, but the rest didnt.

Honestly, with the way the Joker's character is written, he "wins" as long as something is in chaos, anarchy, etc. As he said, "I just do things..." I dont think he plans that far ahead, just enough to ensure things will still suck for everyone.

 

[Hecubus114]

Another thing to remember is that Dent and Batman are constantly being compared in this movie. Rachael's death was devastating to both of them - maybe even more so to Batman - but Batman didn't even let that make him abandon his principles. I'd hate to use the word "better", but that's definitely how they play him off. Maybe "stronger" is a better way to say it. By the end of this movie, he is truly selfless. "He's not being a hero - he's being something more".

 

[CaptainSuperman]

I feel that the Joker ultimately won this battle ( for various reasons below) as for the war, we don't know that yet.

The reasons I think the Joker "won" is because he had nothing to lose, only upside.

He was able to kill Rachel, cause Batman to break his one rule, damage Bruce's relationship with Lucius, killing a lot of public officials, causing the city to call for Mr Reese's blood, getting Gordon and batman to lie to the people and he was "almost" successful with the plan of blowing up the boats, he just didn't account for a minority of good people having the power to stop the majority from pulling the trigger.

The only way I saw that Joker lost was a shaken world view after the boats did not blow up.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Something is always in chaos and anarchy. It's not like he was introducing it to a place like Gotham for the first time.
It's how much of it is managed and what dominates the destiny of Gotham.

The Joker is effing nuts. He's brillliant, but he is homicidal lunatic, he creates his own
whackball reasons. Searching for or defining a "win" for him isn't going to be so simple if the term can even apply. Part of the appeal is the character can be incredibly seductive. Harley Quinn great example. And Dent in this film as well.

There is no logic or reason, he's nuts but he gets you playing his game and he will leap upon those at their weakest and use them for his own madness.

All he proved is that yes, sometimes some people can have a bad day and end up like him, but it takes someone to be there to push them.

And The Batman is there to PUSH BACK at the SOB.