swpropmaker
Sr Member
I like yours better.. wanna trade?!?
T1 and T2 Endoskeleton Research Thread
- Thread starter Too Much Garlic
- Start date
Dana - I just printed my T2 arm, lol. Your models look AMAZING.
OK gang, re: ports on the top of the skulls, I put this image together (work in progress and can totally be altered) to try and gather images of items that are either confirmed to be the genuine screen used article, or highly likely to have been used in the filming/production where these elements can be seen as clearly as possible. Some screen grabs from the films, some behind the scenes photos, some some are photos of what's been seen out there in the wild today. Of all these items, the Bob Burns is the one I'm most concerned about, but it's in there for now because I had access to it and took clear photos of this particular area. As I said before, it's likely connected to a film skull/mold from T1 or T2.
Enjoy,
-Dana
Enjoy,
-Dana
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
So many pictures I haven't seen before just in that single collage. The Stan Winston School picture of the skull on the stand is pretty damn cool. 
Oh man. That T1 Arm model looks AMAZING! Love those original knuckle designs sooooo much.
Gorgeous stuff.
Gorgeous stuff.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Drool. So many talented people. I am so happy I made this thread and it turned into this. Pure awesomeness.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Question:
First, some notes on those 2 photos for context:
- In the first photo, my bet is that head is fresh back from plating (whether you believe it was vacuum-metalized or electroplated). There doesn't seem to be any dark weathering in the recesses/details yet. I say this because you can see around the CPU port and other scribed lines don't have that deep "pop" of contrast yet.
- In the second photo, it looks like we're probably looking at the hero endoskull in the state it was in just prior to filming. The head isn't missing chunks of finish from being bashed around.
For example, here's a chrome ball being shot by camera, sitting on a white surface, and surrounded on most sides by softly lit white vertical surfaces. Much of the chrome ball looks satin/matte except for the obvious reflected high-contrast area where the camera and rest of the room is clearly visible.
That's one factor. They also still could have sprayed the metallic finish on the endo with something to dull the reflections. We know that spraying many types of clear coat over chrome dulls the finish. I'm not saying that is what they did, but it's possible. Movies often use weathering (like C3PO in Tatooine) or dulling sprays to knock down reflections (especially when they are worried about seeing themselves/the film camera in the reflection in a shot).
But, I bet that the endoskeleton is really pretty shiny. Maybe not a perfect mirror, but nearly. Some great cinematography often involves creating more depth and separation in your shots by using lighting and atmosphere to push and pull your subject and background. Like depth of field (DOF-focus), it's a huge tool in a cinematographers toolkit, and I know James Cameron pumped something into the air in many shots at the end of The Terminator. The factory background is often foggy looking behind the endoskeleton (and probably all around it too). Look at the difference in black point between the shadows on the endoskeleton, and the shadows on the factory walls/ceiling. I believe that this is having an effect on how light is traveling to the endoskeleton metallic finish, and also that the environment it is reflecting is hazy in many of the shots. Also note that as I've examined lighting choices in the final sequences of T1, it seemed like to make the endoskeleton more scary/sinister, it's rarely lit from the front and often we get glancing lighting from the sides. I think this keeps much of the face in darkness which also doesn't reflect a lot. Like this example:
The reason I'm not sure if they used any intention dulling (other than the metallic finish getting abused and roughed up/chipped up over the course of filming), is there are shots in the film where you can see really sharp and strong reflections. I'll post this example toward the endo of The Terminator where the endoskull looks nearly as chrome as the Icons replica. Look in particular around the nose/cheek/chin area. That's a chrome-like reflection in my book:
Ok, sorry for the long post. But it's a complex topic for sure. And again, I'm not saying I have a definitive answer, but everything I see can be explained by how light, environment, atmosphere, and reflectivity work. Also, there's behind the scenes gems like this photo I'll just drop right here:
Discuss,
-Dana
swpropmaker
Sr Member
I'm so happy to see this thread come alive! The screen used Endo's I've seen seem to be plated chrome.... truth I've only really seen T2 artifacts though... there is documented SWS saying the T1 endos were Vacuum Metalized .. and the company who did them is also known and still in business. From what I read they went with an electroplating process for T2 as they stated the Vacuum Metalizing did not hold up to well to the rigors of filming. For purest if you are doing a T1 I'd have it VM'd for T2 EP'd but in the end $$ is going to matter to the individual builder. I am a fan of the latest variant of spray chrome with a 2K clear sealer its very convincing and 1/2 the cost of electroplating.
swpropmaker
Sr Member
1 this picture clearly shows the ball joint is fiberglass and part of the femur casting. Does anyone have reference that shows this not the case.
2 Does the leg pivot in this joint of the pelvis? In other word there is a metal ball attacked to the femur upper leg that plugs into the pelvis socket and that's where the movement is.... seems to be very restrictive if that was the case.
3 If the pelvis opening just allows the shaft of a hip ball joint... how do you think the metal ball joint is locked into place on the femur? especially when its cast in resin.... thoughts Endo masters?
2 Does the leg pivot in this joint of the pelvis? In other word there is a metal ball attacked to the femur upper leg that plugs into the pelvis socket and that's where the movement is.... seems to be very restrictive if that was the case.
3 If the pelvis opening just allows the shaft of a hip ball joint... how do you think the metal ball joint is locked into place on the femur? especially when its cast in resin.... thoughts Endo masters?
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Hey Steve,
Do we want to try and sort out the finish used next? It's a topic that has driven me crazy over the years and it's something I think has been misreported by SWS employees AND I think you're referring to Artcraft (the electroplating place in Burbank) that claims they worked on the film. Also, most of us know that LFS had always held that T1/T2 were vacuum-metalized. But I think we should debate what people have said and look at some images/facts to see if we can sort out what I think might be some inaccuracies/misremembered anecdotes.
-Dana
swpropmaker
Sr Member
There is a Stan Winston interview from one of the behind the scenes videos he says the were Vacuum Metalized in T1. As far as my knowledge I am going off books, talking to folks in the industry and video... if you have something definitive that proves otherwise for or against I'd be more than happy to have the conversation... Let's go!!
1 - I have only ever seen what you are referring to as a balljoint as a part of that upper femur piece. I think it's just aesthetic and non-functional. It looks like it's grey fiberglass to me in this T1 behind the scenes test of the lower legs:
2 - I do not believe there is a ball joint of any type inside the hip-to-upper femur area on the screen used endoskeletons. I've never seen evidence of complex hardware used for the range of motion/articulation in this joint. In fact, I suspect it's a simple rod/axle at best.... and at worst, I have an image (can't share but will describe) that shows a femur with a white rubber/plastic-looking hose used to connect the femurs to the pelvis. I cannot verify it is from T1/T2 but it suggests that a really crappy but simple method may have been used at some point for some endoskeleton. But who knows.
3 - I would ask how much range of motion do you think the legs have in the first place that would necessitate an actual ball joint?
I can tell you that the orientation of the pistons on the thigh are a huge limitation on the endoskeleton legs spreading. And if they only needed to rotate forward/back on mostly 1 axis with a little wiggle room on a second axis, then maybe we should look for some evidence of a simpler answer. Like maybe it's just a loose fit on a single rod/pipe with a bolt tightened only so much? Remember, these things never actually walked and the reason we see most on stands that mount to the pelvis when they aren't in use is the legs generally are not designed to support the endoskeleton free-standing. The skull crusher (AXL), Tomenosuke, and Lightstorm have modified legs with armatures that allow that.I'll have to scrub my stuff again and see if I had a concrete answer on this. I don't think I ever focused as much on that joint to be honest.
-Dana
swpropmaker
Sr Member
The Pyro Endo in T1 Stan Winston says "Was made of urethane and then Chrome plated. We didn't want any metal from a safety factor we didn't want metal pieces killing all the people on the set.." this means it had to be Vacuum Metalized. Electro plating involves actually plating copper and Nickle to the form. This would cause metal shrapnel if blown up I'd think. thoughts? I'm looking for the clip where it shows all the unfinished Endo pieces on the table and he says these are being prepared to be sent off to vacuum metalizing.....
BTW, I think T1/T2 were vacuum-metalized and that chrome electroplating didn't happen until T2:3D. So I'm in general agreement, I just figured we should bring out evidence to try and put it to bed. And again, I've stopped listening to quotes, interviews, etc. They've mispoken so many times, people from SWS have contradicted themselves or said the right fact matched to the wrong film... sigh, so let's find visual evidence to try and get to the bottom of this.
-Dana
swpropmaker
Sr Member
As far as the ball joint... there is something in there that allows the leg to not only front to back but also flex side to side.. you can see it on the picture you posted the left leg is pivoted out at the hip tops still forward a bit.. the one on the right is fairly square but the foot is turned out to the right. the only way that can happen if it pivots at the hip joint. Thats what's wrong with most Endo displays in my opinion the legs are straight up and down. Most you see at SWS the legs are spread apart indicating some type of mech to allow this at the hip. to be able to turn the foot, knee out there must have been something that allowed that. there are too many pictures the show the foot and knee not in direct line with the hip. IMHO of course.
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swpropmaker
Sr Member
Well not owning any original items... if a magnet sticks to it its been electroplated. (Sticks to the Nickle) Not sure about vacuum metalizing that there is enough metal in the base coat to grab the magnet but not sure.... I'm only going with what I personally have access too and unfortunately that's everything you say we can rely on so I'll sit back and watch and help where I can. Do we know anyone that owns anything original? There are some T2 chest pieces that look vacc'd because of how they weathered them... I dont thin electroplating would allow that type of sanding wear. So i'd imagine we will find examples where they were painted..... vac'd and maybe even electroplated.... interesting about T2/3D insite....
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I'm agreeing that they DO pivot a bit but that the knees could not go out too far. Like he can't do a split like Van Damme
.If the forward/back axis is "X" I'd say it seems top be capable of 45 degrees forward (don't know how much backward but let's say the same 45 degrees) as this photo from the sides indicates:
I'm agreeing with you that the DO pivot more that just that rotation on "X" but speculating that the legs cannot rotate more than 10-20 degrees on the other "Y" and "Z" axis. The top of the femur hits the pelvis if you try to swing the knees out more than 15-ish degrees without being able to move the femurs out while rotating.
-Dana
swpropmaker
Sr Member
ok with that being said it has to be a positive friction type of attachment or they would just flop around.. your thoughts... is the pivot at the pelvis or at the femur.. I cant tell from the pictures if the shaft from the pelvis is angled in any picture the pivot its at the pelvis.. if its straight then its at the femur to whatever degree there has to be the ability to move the leg front and back.. side to side (minimally) and rotate the leg/foot looking down from top right and left (minimally)
