T1 and T2 Endoskeleton Research Thread

[Too Much Garlic]

Has anyone remade this forearm cuff to the updated blueprints? I was able to find and convert Andrew's flat model into the wrapped around shape, an even bloat it a bit to get closer to the final shape, but I'm not getting the correct look. I don't think that I can take it any further at this point so I'm at a roadblock. Wondering if anyone else has done this to include all of the correct details? Conqueror_Worm - Did you ever complete this piece in autodesk or stl?

I thought about starting on them, but the thing you mention about the curved shape up towards the tip made me stop. The curved opening also gave me trouble... so I decided to not do it. I need to be more brave and take the time to learn these things, so I can model more complex shapes.

 

[QuartZ]

Thanks for the warm reception. I’m not sure where to start as this thread has covered so much territory.

For instance, I’ve been to Bob Burns’ house. He allowed me to handle and photograph his various Endoskeleton parts, I took extra time to photograph his skull and used digital calipers to measure certain details. We’ll get to that I’m sure. Gotta go dig up the photos (not on my phone).

Maybe starting with the endoskull is best. As it’s what caught my eye (you finding the one acquired a few years ago) and pulled me back out of the shadows . The skull, the various versions in the films, the replicas, etc. are so confusing and controversial that maybe that’s where we should begin.

I’ll say up front that I will always be honest here. I don’t know everything. The most accurate info I have has honestly come from examining the facts and hard evidence that I have seen with my own eyes. What people have said, written, or heard has often been inaccurate or misremembered. So I’ll do my best to also tell you how confident I am, but know that I’m open to the hard reality that we just don’t know the truth sometimes (and may never know).

-Dana

 

[QuartZ]

Here’s a photo of some of my endoskulls that I think are important. To me, they answer some questions but honestly still contain mysteries. Maybe we can solve them together or bring out some more people who can prove/disprove what we discuss here.

Left to right - Original M1 vinyl kit, Icons V1, Icons V2 (or Timeless), what I’ll call the “JR” skull for now, and an LFS/XFX cold-cast.

It’s my opinion that these likely have some form of lineage to screen used endoskulls, but, some may more directly connect to what I now suspect was the SWS Gift Skull/T2:3D mold. More on that in a bit.

-Dana

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Those look adorable together. I still think the "JR" skull is the closest to original out of all those. And yeah... the first time I saw it my mind immediately screamed gift skull.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

To list how I consider their lineage - I might be completely wrong:

M1 - master casting direct from T2 production mold.
ICONS - T2 lineage
Timeless - T1 lineage
"JR" - T2 Gift skull mold
"LFS/XFX - molded from a T2 endoskeleton

 

[QuartZ]

Those look adorable together. I still think the "JR" skull is the closest to original out of all those. And yeah... the first time I saw it my mind immediately screamed gift skull.

I would tend to agree that the "JR" skull has a lot going for it. Here's what I think sets it apart from the others:

Lineage/Accuracy - I have verified the original owner's credentials and the access they had at the time this skull was likely cast. There are details and tells that I believe point to a master/mold that was likely made during/after T2 for the gift skulls which I think was then used for T2:3D.
Shape - I think the "JR" it's the closest to T1/T2 in overall head shape (I know you've had discussions of how skull shape varied significantly in those movies, but I personally don't think the overall head shape was much different. I think this is something I'd like to see if we can resolve).
Size - It's overall volume is similar/a hair bigger than the LFS/XFX and Timeless skulls (although the Timeless distorted upper skull makes it look bigger).
Sharpness - While the M1 has sharp details, many of them were altered or exaggerated beyond the source they had. The LFS/XFX is fairly soft on edges and details. The Icons/Timeless skulls are somewhere in the middle. The "JR" skull details look just right from what I can tell.
Finish - It's incredibly smooth. I have some behind the scenes photos from the Stan Winston School and one shows a skull being polished with steel wool around the time of T2:3D, I believe that photo is actually the new master being prepped and that this is a cast from that mold.

-Dana

 

[Too Much Garlic]

For instance, I’ve been to Bob Burns’ house. He allowed me to handle and photograph his various Endoskeleton parts, I took extra time to photograph his skull and used digital calipers to measure certain details. We’ll get to that I’m sure. Gotta go dig up the photos (not on my phone).

Do you remember if the rear port cover was still on the skull or whether it was just an open hole? In some Bob Burns videos it looks like it is there, but in others it looks like it is gone.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I believe most of what I said about the skull shape being different between T1 and T2 was back when I based the T2 shape on the LFS skull shape. I have since then learned that that is not correct and that T1 and T2 are pretty much the same, shape-wise. The main differences are the front and rear port and the scribed details between those, as well as the left cheek having a bend on the T1's, but is sanded more straight on the T2 styles.

Agree completely with your assessment that the "JR" is a Gift Skull. The smooth surface as well as the way the teeth gaps are filed open looks the same as the other pictures of finished gift skulls I've seen. However, I believe the skulls in the Stan Winston school paint video is not a gift skull, but original style T2, as the teeth gaps are filled in as they originally were in T1.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Though... now that I look at it and the picture of your skull... it has the same defect at the back teeth, where the mold wasn't completely aligned at the seamline at the bottom of the teeth... so could be the same.

EDIT: but the original production made T2 skulls had the seamline at the same place, so could just be a leftover artifact!?

 

[QuartZ]

Do you remember if the rear port cover was still on the skull or whether it was just an open hole? In some Bob Burns videos it looks like it is there, but in others it looks like it is gone.

When I went to visit Bob in 2012, I have to say, he was a super kind and generous host. And his collection of items is incredible. That said, I want to put something out there that might be controversial. I am not sure all of Bob's items are screen used. I saw plenty of replicas there and items that may have been made by studios but not seen on screen or used in the actual production at all. Bob is only able to tell us what others have told him when they passed the items on to him. So, I just want to say that I'm not sure about the Terminator parts he has. I have confidence they all have lineage to the films and close lineage at the very least. But there's some sketchy aspects to most of the pieces.

The rear port is in fact open on the skull he has. The seam lines are horrible on his skull, the temple details were glued and mangled together, the jaw was connected to the upper skull in a way that looked hacked, the pistons were thrown on wrong, etc.

The paint was very interesting on the skull. I don't believe it was vacuum metalized, but maybe it was and the finish has something over it. I'll describe that some more later.

So here's a couple photos to get started:

Gotta grab some food, I'll get to your next posts in a bit,
-Dana

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Cool pictures. A shame the rear port is missing. The indent on the front port doesn't seem as deep as the one in the EMPMuseum or other T1 style castings, but more like the Timeless Collectibles one.

Bob Burns may have put it together himself. Similar to how he has later mounted the pelvis and spine with the chest and neck pieces, but put the chest and neck piece upside down so the neck piece is connected with the spine. Hope he didn't weld or glue it together like that and it can actually be taken apart... and hope he'll fix how it is put together on display as it looks weird. It can be seen in this video at the 5:40 mark:

In one of the Bob Burns videos I saw a casting of Boris Karloff's Frankenstein's Monster and wondered if that was an authentic casting or whether it was something else. I started a thread about it here: Bob Burns Collection - Frankenstein Casting

 

[QuartZ]

I believe most of what I said about the skull shape being different between T1 and T2 was back when I based the T2 shape on the LFS skull shape. I have since then learned that that is not correct and that T1 and T2 are pretty much the same, shape-wise. The main differences are the front and rear port and the scribed details between those, as well as the left cheek having a bend on the T1's, but is sanded more straight on the T2 styles.

Agree completely with your assessment that the "JR" is a Gift Skull. The smooth surface as well as the way the teeth gaps are filed open looks the same as the other pictures of finished gift skulls I've seen. However, I believe the skulls in the Stan Winston school paint video is not a gift skull, but original style T2, as the teeth gaps are filled in as they originally were in T1.

View attachment 1693565

The skull in this photo (which I believe was on display at Monsterpalooza) is a casting that was painted for a Stan Winston School lesson on metallic paint finishes. This is not a skull used in any of the films, and I believe based on several tells that the source for the castings used in the lesson video connect back to wherever the "JR" skull comes from. It is even possible that they popped it out of the same mold due to seams I've matched around the skull from watching the Stan Winston School lesson (which I bought). A mold can even be seen in some of the footage from that video! If we want to go down that rabbit hole, we can... if necessary

-Dana

 

[ssdesigner]

So I’m just going to ask in case I’m not the only one thinking it:

Any chance that an owner of a skull tracing back to the original films would be up for having it scanned? I’d volunteer myself to print in resin as needed.

 

[QuartZ]

To list how I consider their lineage - I might be completely wrong:

M1 - master casting direct from T2 production mold.
ICONS - T2 lineage
Timeless - T1 lineage
"JR" - T2 Gift skull mold
"LFS/XFX - molded from a T2 endoskeleton

I'm not sure about a bunch of this to be honest:

M1 - Their source could be from T1 or T2. The story I read over at the T-Studio website with the owner of M1 says he recalls starting the project in 1992 and it taking about a year to bring to market. He claims the casting he ultimately used as the base for the kit was a T1 casting directly from SWS. However, I have the kit, and all over it has 1991 copyrights. So, like many things, the timeline based on the interviewee seems off. Where did you get info that it's for sure a T2 casting? Would love to nail this one down.

Icons V1 - Based on having this and the M1, I feel like we should certainly squash the rumor that Icons molded an M1 kit. I just see so many differences that I cannot go along with that rumor. Yes, they are similar in size (too small). However, the Icons V1 has more of the right detail locations and preserve things that are missing/removed from the M1. It may be true that they molded the M1 temple detail panels, but the main skull and jaw do not match in my opinion. Unsure if they started from a T1 or T2 to be honest.

Icons V2/Timeless - I'd be curious why you think this comes from T1 specifically? Again, I believe the sculpts/masters for the upper and lower skulls from T1-T2 are largely if not entirely the same. At least for the screen used endos. So if the main reason is the front CPU port being different, we should dive into that topic because maybe that's a major misconception. The CPU port seen on these skulls looks different from all other mass produced replicas. BUT, it's accurate to screen used endoskeletons from T1 and T2! The indented front port with the inner dimple "tooling" detail as you've called it is actually what the 2 first films endos had. It's not until T2:3D that we see the front CPU port change to the filled in look with some of the perimeter details changed. Let's do a whole post on that.

LFS/XFX - I was told by the producer of this item that it was molded from the full T2 endoskeleton that was available to them through The Licensing Group. However, the maker is not a trustworthy source of information, and certain things don't match the skull they claimed they molded. I have high res photos that I cannot share of the screen used endoskeleton now in a private collection and either they did mold it but modified it too change things to be less accurate, or they used a different source. I am not sure. Again, the CPU port in the front does not match the source endoskeleton they claimed to use as a basic fact. I can also verify that the endoskeleton claimed to have been used IS in fact one used on screen in T2.

-Dana

 

[Too Much Garlic]

What I see on the M1 are pure T2 details. The front and rear cover are different between T1 and T2 and the scribed lines between them are different. The T1 are angled in towards the rear, so is not parallel with the rectangular panel next to it. Also, the T1 has the indented hole in the front cover as well as a small dimple at the edge towards the front, whereas the T2 has it filled in and the dimple rotated slightly to the side. That is one of the features you can tell T1 and T2 skulls apart. The T2 production pictures with the actual endoskeletons used for the movie all have the T2 front and rear cover, with it looking like the rear cover is part of the casting and not separate as on T1 - the 2 T1 style you see in T2 is the fallen over endoskeleton that gets shot by a resistance soldier, as you see the endoskeleton with the indented front cover in an auction video on youtube, as well as the one coming out of the fire at the end of the title sequence. From all other I've seen of T2 endos, they have the T2 details.

Another T1 is seen in the T2 teaser trailer as they hadn't made new endoskeletons at that point.

Icons may or may not have molded the M1 temples. But I agree with you that they did not mold the whole M1 for their skull. As you say, details differ.

Timeless has the T1 style front cover and the angled scribed lines back to the rear cover and the rear cover is rotated compared to all other T2 style castings, indicating it was added to a casting that had no cover.

LFS, as I have been looking very close to theirs, there are many alterations. Areas sanded down, details changed, other parts of the endoskeleton completely fabricated from scratch that doesn't match what we see in SWS castings. Close, but not exact. Likely done as a standard to keep certain things obscure, as has been the norm in licensed prop replication over the years, or because some parts were difficult to mold and proved easier to just scratchbuild as close as possible.

Did this up roughly to show the difference between what I call T1 and T2 style. Used a ICONS and Timeless piece to show what I mean. These are consistent with what I've seen from T1 and T2. Though, the Timeless indentation at the front cover is not similar to T1 castings. They altered it.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I may have these labeled wrong in my folder but I believe they were posted as being from T2 production. You can see the master being worked on and it has no rear cover. But it seems like the scribed lines have been straigthened. So all they had to do to mold this to produce the T2 castings was to add the rear cover. Notice how all T2 castings has the rear cover exactly the same rotation. Even the licensed ones. All but Timeless... because its source was a T1.

You can see the above master at the top left rear in this following picture.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Though... if you are correct... then these pictures must be from the T2-3D stuff.

However, the skulls on the T2-3D foyer/window endoskeletons have the Timeless skull on them.

 

[QuartZ]

Hmm, let's dig into this some more looking at Endoskeletons from T1 and T2 in their finished form. So it seems like there's not debate that in T1, the front CPU port is indented

I may have these labeled wrong in my folder but I believe they were posted as being from T2 production. You can see the master being worked on and it has no rear cover. But it seems like the scribed lines have been straigthened. So all they had to do to mold this to produce the T2 castings was to add the rear cover. Notice how all T2 castings has the rear cover exactly the same rotation. Even the licensed ones. All but Timeless... because its source was a T1.

View attachment 1693656

You can see the above master at the top left rear in this following picture.
View attachment 1693655

I think this may actually be photos of T2:3D work. But let's get to that in a bit. I want to address the T1 vs T2 front CPU port belief you have

-Dana

 

[QuartZ]

Though... if you are correct... then these pictures must be from the T2-3D stuff.

However, the skulls on the T2-3D foyer/window endoskeletons have the Timeless skull on them.

The endoskeletons installed at the Universal attractions were made by Icons/Timeless/LFS to the best of my knowledge

-Dana

 

[Too Much Garlic]

So these are production style:




And these are post T2:3D?