Studio scale TIE wing thickness info if you can

Discussion in 'Studio Scale Models' started by Flyscriber, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Hey RPF folk, I trust your eyes are now used to the brightness of the new site. Now I can wear my shades of an evening ;-)

    I am just about to embark on a Studio scale Tie commission and I would like to make the main wing supporting structure and wing edge details from laser cut layers of steel, just to make it super straight and pretty bomb proof, and to sandwich the very expensive sheet of kool shade into position.
    To do this I need to know the overall thickness of the wing edges and the raised details.

    Any measurements you knowledgeable folk can furnish me with would be gratefully received.

    Thanks everyone.
     
    greeble_gremlin likes this.
  2. swgeek

    swgeek Sr Member

    Trophy Points:
    1,315
    If my memory is correct, the "H" beam around the outside of the wing is a 1/4" o.d.
     
  3. 3phase

    3phase Well-Known Member

    Trophy Points:
    935
    If you look on my thread I have measured the inside of the H beam and you will also see I have shown that the coolshade is basically wider than the gap in the H beam so a very tight fit even when no paper or card is between the coolshade.

    No one has actually replied to say what they used but i persevered with thin paper.

    If you can make sure your H beam you make has plenty of room for the coolshade
     
  4. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Thanks for the replies guys, I have been checking your thread 3phase, nice to know whats ahead in my near future :)
    Ive been checking over the available reference images for the edges of the wings and I've found a few differences between the ILM models.
    Some of the wings are sized to finish at the ends of the greeblied stars and some seem to have an extended lip around the end of the greeblied star. This is seen quite clearly on the asteroid crash miniature, which also features a moulding detail around the edge of the koolshade.
    Is there consensus on the hero version wing details ?
    I have attached an image which im working on the layout of the various parts to make the metal wing structure. It still only a concept at this stage so anything can change. My main issues are the sizing of the finished details on the original and how close I can get using sheet steel.
    I have labelled the bits on the image which I would love some info on.
    The black dotted line sows where the greeblied star ends on my version at the moment, and the green line shows where the extra lip detail is seen on the asteroid version.

    EDGE SIZES FOR TIE.jpg
     
  5. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    This shows the idea I am trying to work towards

    SPLIT WING CONCEPT.jpg
     
  6. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    This diagram may give you a better idea of how the Wings went together.
    Please note: this is not to scale.
    TIE Wing Cross section.jpg
    The ILM modelers mitered and butted the H-beam up against the edge of the WingStar arms at the corners.
    The 1/8 inch T-Beam was mitered and completely bordered/encircled the outline frame of the wing; further holding the corners together.
    There is a better solution to treating the joints at the corners than had been done on the original models

    hope this helps
     
    ZAP, Flyscriber and Hammer3246 like this.
  7. swgeek

    swgeek Sr Member

    Trophy Points:
    1,315
    The TIE Fighters where the wingstar goes all the way out to the edge of the H beam are from A New Hope. The Empire and Return TIEs have the H beam sticking out past the Wingstar.
     
    Flyscriber likes this.
  8. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    A few more quick & dirty renders showing the assembly of the TIE fighter wing frames, sans KoolShade triangles and the inner membrane.

    Assembled TIE Wing-1.jpg

    Assembled TIE Wing-2.jpg

    Assembled TIE Wing-3.jpg

    Assembled TIE Wing-4.jpg

    This may make things a bit clearer
     
    Flyscriber likes this.
  9. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    This is correct; that and a few other features help tell the differences of the miniatures used from one film to another.
    I assumed flysciber was looking to make an ANH version.
     
  10. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    I did a set of wings using the plastruct but used a waterjet-cut piece of thin aluminum for the core, inner membrane.
    This gave it a bit more strength but not as much as I had hoped.
    It was a tight fit. I had too carefully file down the KS wire, here it is hidden under the H-Beam. I also sanded the "inside" channel of the H-beam to make a bit more room.
    As they say: " there is more than one way to skin a cat" , Flyscriber. I thought this might help you to arrive at the dimension you need for thickness.
    I am curious what type(model) of laser cutter are you using?
     
  11. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Awesome stuff guys, this is exactly the info I was hoping to find. I am now getting a clearer image of the construction. Weather it will be possible to get an accurate finish using the steel layers is unknown at the moment, but I will evaluate it as an option before starting them, and if it doesn't seem feasible I will definitely fall back on the tried and tested method .
    greeble_gremlin, I will be outsourcing to an industrial laser company whom I have used many times before as they can do from .9mm up to 25mm stainless sheet and other metals. Just out of interest, do you remember what thickness the Aly sheet you used was ? as I can go for stainless for more rigidity if needed.
    I can find out the type of cutter when I speak to them if you need. I think they are gerber, but im not sure.
     
  12. bigpetr

    bigpetr Member

    Trophy Points:
    138
    Thank you for all that info greeble_gemlin.
    Can I ask you for this "x" dimension (height of star center)?

    6.jpg
     
  13. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    3,860
    I have done this three times over? It gets OLD, lol... but here's pics of the last set I did.

    935059_10151622490783156_39039540_n.jpg 13620967_10154379444318156_5853077148730658224_n.jpg 13654387_10154379444288156_9153133710963620951_n.jpg 13669005_10154379444078156_1800342083745117932_n.jpg 13690604_10154379444028156_9094687771728618877_n.jpg 13697077_10154379444033156_8782385720583593858_n.jpg 13699979_10154379444023156_3195774109522311925_n.jpg 13700109_10154379444228156_2718734975274316893_n.jpg 13716253_10154384874528156_5264473564032903151_n.jpg 13726737_10154379444133156_8097331235546420482_n.jpg 13731635_10154384874518156_6102944737265589673_n.jpg
     
    greeble_gremlin likes this.
  14. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    3,860
    PS: These are very old, are very fragile, and are from the original ANH molds, and I am having them high-res scanned so I can do a really nice ANH spec TIE.

    IMG_2463.jpg IMG_2464.jpg
     
  15. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    3,860
    and for the record - 5 1/8" inner ball and the main ball itself is FIVE AND ONE QUARTER INCH OUTER DIAMETER. We can go home boys, we did it! ;)
     
    Voodoocaster, swgeek and vectorzero like this.
  16. swgeek

    swgeek Sr Member

    Trophy Points:
    1,315
    Nice! Any more photos of those parts you want to share Jason?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  17. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    Awesome pics! Jason, Thanks,
    Flyscriber, look at his treatment of the H-beam at the corners, .. that is what I meant by giving it a better treatment than the originals... more surface area for the cement/bonding agent. The end result looks the same when assembled.
    I also made these reinforced core frame (waterjet cut) back in 2009. I ended up not using them as I should have allowed for more over-hang of the cast wingstars
    Otherwise they would have worked.
    The next batch I will modify the design, though, as you can see the design waists a lot of material unless you have another project with a lot of smaller pieces needing aluminium of the same thickness.

    As far as thicknesses? I will have to dig into my notes, it was almost 10 years ago

    IMG_0231.JPG

    IMG_0234.JPG
     
  18. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    FlyScriber,
    I asked about the lasercuting because I am interested in a service that can laser-cut and scribe metal for an unrelated project.
    I have to places in mind, but have not yet tried them. If you have had good service in the past with this place I might give them a try.
    let me dig up those numbers for you.
     
  19. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Interesting stuff, Why the notches along the edges? I am sure it is blatantly obvious, but I can be a bit thick sometimes :)
     
  20. joewhite

    joewhite Sr Member

    Trophy Points:
    1,046
    Wow, the wing work helps solidify my thoughts and measurements. Thanks!

    Jason, any chance you could share detailed pics of the yellowed inner parts? I see some parts I hadn't seen before. Any help would be great!

    Joe
     
  21. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    The notches were for a "keyed fit".
    They were more for the Virtual Kool Shade version of a build which would have been cast from very Hi-Rez 3D print.
    Ultimately we went a slightly different route with the VKS but they do go together now more like a hero kit (with real Kool Shade) rather than a single piece solid cast wing. The WingStars attached separately over the VKS cast portion/core. As I said these were made almost 10 years ago.
    At the time we could not 3D Print a large enough section of VKS but within just 2-3 years later that changed... it got a bit cheaper to print too.
    I do not think there would be anything to gain trying to "key' the real Kool-shade... you would only end up mutilating the louvres.

    It would be interesting to test if the Kool Shade could be cut effectively with a water-jet cutter.
    Unfortunately, I do not have enough extra to spare for such experimentation.
    Perhaps if I could get some of the modern stuff. It may make nice clean cuts without bending the louvers as with shears.
    The water jet does have abrasive residue.; in which one might run the risk of scratching of the finish in places.
     
  22. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    I have not had any experience laser cutting metal.
    Flyscriber do you think it could be cut that way?
    ...probably have a problem with the focal point of the beam. Kool Shade is almost 1/8" inch deep/thick
    doubtful it would lay perfectly flat on the bed anyway.

    I guess I am musing about this;:eek: as I get terrified a the thought making a mistake cutting the KoolShade I have left!
    I don't even want to think about the per square foot cost.:confused:
     
  23. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    awesome images Jason, thanks for posting those, and everyone else who has posted, this thread has helped me out a bunch.

    Greeble_gremlin
    The main issue with the laser cutting is holding the koolshade in position whist being cut. The focal point doesn't become an issue until you get to about 8mm thick, then the lower edge of the cut can become a little uneven, but is easy to clean up with a file if needed. Also I didn't want to trust the alignment of the koolshade wire lines and direction of the mesh to the factory, as there is only enough koolshade for one hit at the panels.
    I am planning to use an angle grinder. I know it sounds a bit manic, but the high speed of the 1m wide metal slitting disk requires very little pressure to remove material which keeps the cool shade unaffected in direction and angle of the vanes. I have tied this a couple of times on portions of koolshade which were too creased to use and it works fine with a slow and steady hand, even diagonally across the vanes.
    I will use a steel1 inch angle as a straight edge for the grinder to follow which will also clamp the material down (ish) keeping it flat along the cut.
    That's the plan anyhow !! The proof of the pudding will come soon.
     
  24. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    Interesting.
    I'm be curious to see how it turns out.
     
  25. JLinNY

    JLinNY Well-Known Member

    Trophy Points:
    941
    Awesome, awesome thread!! This is going to help me so much if I ever get around to building Steve's kit. Outstanding photos Moff, thanks so much for posting.
     
  26. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Hey folks.
    Ive just been checking my DXF file against the actual wing stars.
    Am I correct that the lower horizontal edge of the wingstars are about 2mm further from the horizontal center line than the top ? meaning the lower half of the wings are 2mm longer than the top.
    It looks to be intentional on the moulding. Please can you let me know if I am correct about this, as I will be sending the cutting file soon, or are the original wings completely symmetrical about horizontal and verticle. Or, does this matter at all ??? :)

    Hers a quick pic to help you see what I am going on about.


    Cheers folks

    +2mm bottom.jpg
     
  27. swgeek

    swgeek Sr Member

    Trophy Points:
    1,315
    Well they were hand cut at the time (no laser cutting/3D printing) so I'm sure they aren't perfectly symmetrical but they do need to line up pretty well back to back. I didn't notice a big difference in top to bottom when I drew mine but of course I couldn't find a good straight on view to use without the pylon cover. So I have no way of knowing where exactly the center hole was.
     
  28. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    3,860
    In the process of getting hands on a leftover wingstar from '76. If it pans out I will let you know!
     
    swgeek and vectorzero like this.
  29. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    That sounds awesome Jason, who knows what gems you might uncover. Bring it on :). I am 99% sure I will be reverting back to symmetry for the laser cut center panel and the rib supports.
     
  30. vectorzero

    vectorzero Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    735
    It's getting close to Christmas. Is the '76 wingstar nestling under the tree yet?
     
  31. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    laser cut parts.jpg taping 4m holes also 3mm holes on tips of koolshade spacers.jpg csk holes.jpg outer side csk screws.jpg koolshade template test fit.jpg wing right assembly after recessing.jpg Hi folks. Well, things are going nicely on the wing front so far.
    All panels are laser cut and look great.
    Some info for anyone who may have something like this done in the future. Laser cutting metal will harden the edges where the metal is melted away during the cut, this gives a hardened edge to all cuts. So if you are planning to thread any holes, always undersize them on the file and manually drill them out to the correct diameter for your chosen tap. This will stop you snapping taps on the toughened edge of the steel.
    Anyhow, after drilling and taping all the threads, the outer surface holes were countersunk to partly hide the screws, leaving a small amount of the head protruding on the outer surface. The undercuts around each protruding countersunk head will "key" the epoxy to the metal on final assembly.
    They all fit perfectly, the H strip just clicks into position over the koolshade spacer layer. I am very happy with this so far.

    So heres a few shots of the stainless steel parts and assembly for you delectation.
    I will post more as the wings develop.
    Todays job is cutting a test kolshade panel for thickness testing and possible slide in fixing. As I am thinking I may insert the koolshade as a taper fit sliding it under a completed wingstar assembly, then adding the edges last to encapsulate the whole thing.

    I have one really important question for all you folks in the know.
    What colour should the background "inner layer behind the koolshade be ?
    I am guessing matt back. Any thoughts or facts gratefully received.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  32. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Ive cut the first test panel from a portion of the koolshade roll which wasn't up to scratch (too creased for main finished panels). I used an angle grinder with a 1 slitting disk, and the results were perfect first time. NO deflection of the vanes at all, actually it was no effort to cut, and the grinder just followed the template easily. I have no hesitation in recommending this method. Here are some pics of the cut koolshade panel.
    cut edge 2.jpg cut koolshade edge.jpg edge thickness.jpg cut edge 2.jpg cut koolshade edge.jpg edge thickness.jpg

    Just another question for you guys.
    Do the vanes slope towards the center of the wing, or toward the edge. Im having issues seeing it in reference images so far.
    cheers everyone.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  33. vectorzero

    vectorzero Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    735
    I think Jason posted this a while ago.

    Quote:

    Louvers face \\\\\ when viewing from the front, with longest outer spar facing upwards, so the louvers all radiate inward as you go around the "clock". So 12 o'clock is \\\\\ and 6 o'clock is ///// when viewed head on.
     
  34. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    great Vectorzero, thanks for the confirmation on that.
     
  35. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    3,860
    Screen Shot 2018-12-18 at 12.23.12 PM.png I am getting closer to the wing star dimensions... the ANH wing star pattern pretty much lays perfectly over Gawley's blueprint, length and angle-wise. The red outline is the eFX/Neisen wingstars - incredibly close!
     
  36. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    3,860
    Also, I'm doing the Gawley/sketchbook version!

    Screen Shot 2018-12-19 at 10.42.23 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-12-19 at 10.42.35 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-12-13 at 10.09.24 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-12-19 at 2.19.07 PM.png Screen Shot 2018-12-19 at 2.25.11 PM.png Screen Shot 2018-12-14 at 2.21.10 PM.png
     
    greeble_gremlin likes this.
  37. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    FlyScriber,
    Sweet! and Hardcore!
    I"m curious, what where the thickness' of the metal you used?
    Regarding the finish of the inside piece, I ended up with a flat black.

    Though, though initially I had vain imaginings (for my own build) to get the aluminium "core' piece black-anodized. It would have had a nice iridescent quality. This proved impractical as there were too many minor scuffs/scratches on the metal sheet. Easily hidden of by a coat of black primer and some wet sanding before a final coat of paint.
    It would have been nice to add a brushed metal effect in directions parallel to the KoolShade braided wires. but this too was impractical to mask-off one "triangle" at a time and use a small belt sander. That would have gone well with an anodized treatment
    Also the anodizing was way too pricey.
    I know they did nothing like this on the real miniatures, but this thing will be sitting in my office subjected to close scrutiny (chiefly by me).
    As i said I had to sand the inner "channel of H_Beam to make room for the aluminium core and Kool-Shade. That was a real pain. I suspect you can go with a thinner gauge of stainless steel for the same amount of strength


    -Nice treatment with the tap & dye.
    I doubt those wings will ever warp.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  38. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    Jason,

    -How do the dimensions of the Wingstar shapes I sent you back in 2011(2012??) compare to your new findings?


    We took those measurements off an original TIE used in ANH back in 2009 (now in a private collection)

    The dimensions of the EFX TIE wings differ slightly unfortunately, from the 2D shapes I sent you.
    We sent corrections to the firm after evaluating their CAD files, before they committed to the final design and before they began tooling for the injection molds.
    Unfortunately, for whatever reason they chose to disregard the corrections. If you look close too, the EFX wings "taper" in thickness as they proceed away from the central hub.
    I actually like this feature, but the originals remained the same thickness throughout the whole wing.
    In my experience dealing with those overseas firms in China almost always proves problematic at one stage or another.
    The same thing happened with the Moebieus TOS Glactica Viper.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  39. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    I do not mean to usurp this thread.
    I checked but I think the original RPF post and the old link to these files are gone.
    At any rate, these files and their dimensions are out in common circulation by now.
    Initially any one buying one of Nice-en's revised SS "Hero"TIE kits (from circa 2010 on) was given these PDF files to help them cut the Kool-Shade triangles and inner membranes.
    I think that practice fell by the wayside.
    So here are the 2D Wing & Wingstar files for the Studio Scale "Hero" TIE fighter once again

    WingStar_Diagram_[Final]3-20-2010.jpg WingStar_Triangles_[Final]3-20-2010.jpg WingStar_Inner Membrane_[Final]3-20-2010.jpg

    I also made a diagram to help with the miter cuts of the Plastruct... not sure if I still have that file?
    I will have to look thru by back-ups
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    GTImotion and bigpetr like this.
  40. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Guys, please don't worry about usurping this thread, all this info is the reason I asked, so please crack on with the usurping.
    Awesome images Jason, loving all the info and images of other SS Tie stuff.
    To answer the metal thickness info,
    The centre (full size) plate between the koolshade is 0.9mm in thickness,
    The star shapes screwed to the centre plate are 2mm.
    The vinyl under each koolshade panel is aprox 0.15mm,
    which gives a very small amount of clearance for the koolshade which seems to be about 1.7mm in thickness.
    If the koolshade seems a little loose on final test assembly, I will add another layer of vinyl to tighten the gap.
    The edge of the wingstar where it meets the H strip needs to be thinned on the mitred areas by the thickness of the edge of the H strip (about 1mm), as per the reference images , and it clips over the metal perfectly.
    All on track for a pretty bomb proof set of wings so far.
    Thanks for all the info so far folks. Its always a pleasure.
    Oh !! Happy Christmas as well. :)
    side black.jpg vinyl inserts.jpg
    koolshade insert.jpg koolshade root.jpg
     
    greeble_gremlin likes this.
  41. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    Hey Fly Scriber, I've definitely been taking notes on your build-up and Im going to borrow a few pages out of your book on my next Hero-TIE-Fighter build.
    I was wondering if I could see a picture of the type/model of Angle Grinder tool that you used.
    You got some really clean cuts on that KoolShade.
    Thanks
     
  42. Flyscriber

    Flyscriber Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    837
    Yes it came out really nice with a slow and steady cut. I used some plywood under the koolshade and clamped the template over the koolshade and cut slowly through the metal in one steady pass making sure I was lifting some sawdust in the cut. That way I knew I didn't need another pass, which may have caught a previously half cut edge !
    The angle grinder is just your standard 4 inch angle grinder with a 1mm slitting disk.
    51Pl3EH0TWL__SX425_.jpg
    Ill post more after I get onto the main cutting session in the next few days.
     
  43. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846
    Hey Thanks! Andy,

    Wow, bigger than I thought, That's a very clever way to tackle the Job.
    I spent a pretty penny on my original Koolshade, (many years ago) been a bit nervous when it come time to cut it
    I'm hoping to have enough extra to use on a 5 foot Falcon. .. no room for big mistakes
     
  44. vectorzero

    vectorzero Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    735
    Andy sent me these last night. I'm so excited to see the final result. There is a LOT of work going into these. Build log for the whole ship soon.

    For those thinking of building one of these, there is still some original Koolshade available form my source. PM me and I will put you in touch.

    finished_panels_still_with_sawdust_edges_ready_for_manual_trim_and_fit.jpg wingstar_test_for_trail_coverage.jpg
     
    GTImotion and greeble_gremlin like this.
  45. greeble_gremlin

    greeble_gremlin Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

    Trophy Points:
    846

Share This Page