Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams...

[niennumb1]

Sorry to make another Star Wars thread, but It's been on my mind forever, and since it's an especially hot topic right now I might as well bring it up and see if it's been discussed yet.

This is not a bashing of the PT vs. OT movies really. The question is purely over the musical score of the films. I know the music extremely well and themes, but there's a couple things very wrong with the progression of the score in the PT leading into the OT.

1. The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) - Not one hint of this theme is present in "A New Hope." This doesn't bother me. However, from an episode order standpoint the theme should remain absent entirely through the prequels. It makes no sense that we hear the Vader theme starting as early as Episode 1 within Anakin's theme, completely fleshed out in notes in Episode II when we see the big Clone Army, and again in 3, NO THEME in 4, and then all over in 5 and 6. As much as I love this song, it should have been omitted until it ultimately started up in Episode 5. I would be willing to let go a bit within the Anakin theme with it being more subtle, but leaving out even more notes, but it's very broken in musical continuity for the order of the story. I'm also surprised (THANKFUL IT HASN'T BEEN DONE) that Lucas didn't tell anyone to incorporate the Imperial March into Vader's entrance in Episode IV on the Tantive IV if he was wanting to connect "everything."

2. The Throne Room Music in the end credits of Episode III - How does this work? That music was for after the DS1 was blown up and the Yavin Award Ceremony where the rebels celebrated their big victory. This music had no business being in Episode III.

3. Yoda's Theme during an Anakin/Padme scene in Episode II - I think everyone knows about that blunder.

These things do not absolutely ruin everything in the movie watching experience for me, but they always stand out as being just very irresponsibly executed if we're trying to keep these episodes in their timeline order, and not in order of the date the music was realized/composed for the movies (or the characters the themes belong to).

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

Well, actually, #1 makes sense...if you watch the series in release order, rather than in episode order.

 

[niennumb1]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

Well of course it does if you did that, but you don't read a book from chapters 12-24 first and then go back and read 1-11.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

Well of course it does if you did that, but you don't read a book from chapters 12-24 first and then go back and read 1-11.

Bah.

If the book is written 4 5 6 1 2 3, then that's the order you read it.


To be honest, I think this relates to the overdone attempts to interconnect all aspects of the OT to the PT...without real consideration for whether the connections make narrative sense.

 

[Laspector]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

I think some of that was just to give you a (if even subconscious) link to the OT.

- - - Updated - - -

Bah.

If the book is written 4 5 6 1 2 3, then that's the order you read it. .

I think what you mean is if a book is published 4 5 6 1 2 3 that's the way you read it. I'm sure tons of books are written out of order by the author and then put together before publishing.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

I think some of that was just to give you a (if even subconscious) link to the OT.

- - - Updated - - -



I think what you mean is if a book is published 4 5 6 1 2 3 that's the way you read it. I'm sure tons of books are written out of order by the author and then put together before publishing.

Well, yeah. That's more what I meant.


And yes, I think it's all about playing on the existing connections in the audience. I don't see it as subconscious, exactly. Like, it's not meant to sneak past your awareness and have you thinking "Say....why does it seem like the Empire is growing in power?" It's meant to be explicitly referential, but more to a general feeling than a specific fact, if that makes sense. It's meant to play on the association between the themes less on a literal level and more on a general emotional level, but you're supposed to consciously recognize it.

 

[Darth Lars]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

I remember back in 2001-2002 I heard of Star Wars fans that went to see the latest Harry Potter movie only because John Williams' scores made in about the same time often sound very much alike ...

Well, actually, #1 makes sense...if you watch the series in release order, rather than in episode order.

Everyone knows the correct order is 4-5-2-3-6.

Sheesh...

 

[Laspector]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

I don't know, I think Episode 2 is my least favorite of the entire series. Too many CG clone troopers, too many Jedi, too many flying bug people, too many stupid looking arena monsters, too much Fett. The whole movie is just lacking for me. As awful as Episode 1 is, I'll take it over 2 any day.

 

[Axlotl]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

Everyone knows the correct order is 4-5-2-3-6.

I prefer 4,5,4,5,4,5.

 

[Treadwell]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

The reuse of the throne room music was surely meant as a big ta-da, this was the last SW movie kind of throwback thing. I agree thematically it makes no sense....and for some reason the tempo is horribly slow. It just plods along.

The PT music had some good themes; I enjoy Duel of the Fates, Droid Invasion, Battle of the Heroes, Across the Stars, Augie's Munincipal Band...even young Ani's theme. As a whole I don't find much replay value in the PT soundtracks, though. I never find myself listening to them.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

Sorry to make another Star Wars thread, but It's been on my mind forever, and since it's an especially hot topic right now I might as well bring it up and see if it's been discussed yet.

This is not a bashing of the PT vs. OT movies really. The question is purely over the musical score of the films. I know the music extremely well and themes, but there's a couple things very wrong with the progression of the score in the PT leading into the OT.

1. The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) - Not one hint of this theme is present in "A New Hope." This doesn't bother me. However, from an episode order standpoint the theme should remain absent entirely through the prequels. It makes no sense that we hear the Vader theme starting as early as Episode 1 within Anakin's theme, completely fleshed out in notes in Episode II when we see the big Clone Army, and again in 3, NO THEME in 4, and then all over in 5 and 6. As much as I love this song, it should have been omitted until it ultimately started up in Episode 5. I would be willing to let go a bit within the Anakin theme with it being more subtle, but leaving out even more notes, but it's very broken in musical continuity for the order of the story. I'm also surprised (THANKFUL IT HASN'T BEEN DONE) that Lucas didn't tell anyone to incorporate the Imperial March into Vader's entrance in Episode IV on the Tantive IV if he was wanting to connect "everything."

2. The Throne Room Music in the end credits of Episode III - How does this work? That music was for after the DS1 was blown up and the Yavin Award Ceremony where the rebels celebrated their big victory. This music had no business being in Episode III.

3. Yoda's Theme during an Anakin/Padme scene in Episode II - I think everyone knows about that blunder.

These things do not absolutely ruin everything in the movie watching experience for me, but they always stand out as being just very irresponsibly executed if we're trying to keep these episodes in their timeline order, and not in order of the date the music was realized/composed for the movies (or the characters the themes belong to).

Dude, you so need to listen to this series of podcast STAR WARS Oxygen: The music of John Williams. It's OUTSTANDING.

http://www.shotglassdigital.com/artist/star-wars-oxygen/

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Re: Star Wars: The broken musical continuity between the PT and OT of John Williams.

There are other issues. I love the man's music, but there wasn't quite enough sorting-out of details. Darth Vader had a theme in Star Wars that was supplanted by the Imperial March in the other films. But. Is it the Imperial March? Or Darth Vader's new theme? It's used for both, but Vader isn't the embodiment of the Imperial forces. The Rebel Fanfare -- is it a theme of the Alliance? Alderaan? The old anthem of the Republic, to represent what they're trying to restore? Stuff like that.

On the other hand, some things fall together almost prefectly. The best musical transition (in episode order) is how the celebration theme from the end of TPM is slowed down and changed to minor key to become the Emperor's Theme. Also, I think the most effectively-used cue(s) through all six films are the various versions of the Force Theme.

But then I get to the "missed opportunites" and "left me cold" categories... I've never been a huge fan of Duel of the Fates. I wish a more-developed orchestration of the first version of the Binary Sunset cue had been used in its place in ROTS. And I'd love to find someone who could orchestrate out the two Boba Fett cues into fuller Mandalorian leitmotif.

--Jonah