STAR WARS Episode IX

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by Bryancd, Mar 18, 2015.

  1. Egon Spengler

    Egon Spengler Sr Member

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    LOL
     
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  2. niennumb1

    niennumb1 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I definitely agree a 4th film would very much help get things more properly re-railed, but I doubt that will happen. :(
     
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  3. sztriki

    sztriki Sr Member

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    100%. It's a simple story that is really really limited and if you try to veer offcourse it won't feel like Star Wars. As Rich Evans said, Star Wars is creatively bankrupt. Heck they had to rehash the whole Death Star thing for ROTJ already in 1983.
    There was a huge buzz recently about a fan film series called "Vader: Shards of the Past". I watched the first episode and...oh my god. The production values are fine, lighting, costumes, CGI are all very pretty, but when it comes to the writing. How the hell is that these characters know only 12 sentences in total and they keep repeating that? How many times do we have to hear "about a great many things", ">>instert things' name here<< do not concern me", "what is thy bidding my master", "rise Lord Vader", etc...? That's all to Star Wars now, Empire, Rebels, Star Destroyers, TIE fighters, lightsabers, stock dialogue...this is probably the biggest mistake of TLJ for me. Go ahead with it, make Rey evil, make Ren turn good or make them work together or do ANYTHING that is newer, more interesting than "join me and we'll rule together!" "nope". Had there been an interesting turn there and the movie ended there it would've felt half as bad for me.

    Oh god that is so spot on for me. That's one of the biggest reasons for my disdain for TLJ, I grew to like TFA and now I cannot really watch it without TLJ interfering. I can completely ignore the prequel trilogy and still enjoy the OT but these two are so intertwined...
     
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  4. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Missed you buddy!
     
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  5. Psab keel

    Psab keel Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I saw that fan film too. While I admired the production value, it's still just a typical fan film. Honestly I said to my wife with the amount of money they spent on that and from what I heard they are planning on trying to raise $200,000 to fund the next episode, you could fund an entire low budget movie for that kind of dough. Seems like a missed opportunity to me. A coworker of mine made a feature length film for $1000.00. It played in festivals and got some decent buzz and for what he did with it, it was pretty damned good. I know some people loved that Vader film, but if I had those kinds of resources I would have made my own original film, not a Star Wars fan film. Just my 2 cents.

    You raise a good point though about the second Death Star in Jedi being used as a plot device. I LOVE Return of the Jedi but even I can admit that from a writing perspective it is redundant. Even the novels fell into the trap of rehashing the same ideas of superweapons and the endless battle between the Empire and Rebellion, regardless of whatever banner they were under at that point in the story. Though I can say that looking back now I would have much preferred to have seen some of those novels be the basis of the Sequel trilogy over what we got. These new movies are just poor imitations of the far superior originals to the point where it's beginning to become parody (The Last Jedi).

    The only thing that comes to mind that has the potential to do anything new with the franchise is The Mandalorean because it will not center on characters or events we have any previous knowledge or expectations about. For anyone holding out hope for Star Wars to be able to do something truly innovative as a story telling vehicle, this could be the beginning, though I am even hesitant to commit to that idea fully because after 40 years no one has been able to truly push the series into new territory without it disintegrating on some level.
     
  6. mugatu

    mugatu Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thanks, Danny.

    You know, I’m not even going to exaggerate. I had been dealing with some very very heavy life issues within my family when TLJ came out. I had been having to focus on those things for a while by that point and I was so looking forward to TLJ being the one shining light in what had become for some time a black murky mundane hell of just worrying and being afriad to even have hopes beyond the living moment. I really needed TLJ.

    I knew of Rian Johnson but had never seen any of his films before. People I trusted said they thought he was good, with a fresh perspective, but more than that, typically delivered competent quality stuff, and he tended to always write his own stuff. So that gave me what I thought was more solid ground for hoping TLJ would be great. I had even seen trailers for the movie he did with Willis and Levett (sp?), and although I felt within the clip Levett looked absolutely nothing like Willis, I could sense some serious thought had gone into the film as far as understanding the mechanics required for a seirous time-travel type of film.
    Then I heard and saw a couple episodes of Breaking Bad that he directed, and I felt confident in him. This film wasn’t going to absolutely suck, which was all I asked of TFA, and was all I really needed from TLJ.

    When opening weekend came around I met my brother and my two nephews at the theater and we were all looking forward to this.

    Now I know there is much to nitpick about the film if one wants to. In fact, at times, one must consciously not nitpick some things, but again, I wasn’t after a perfect movie or a perfect Star Wars movie; I just needed it to not completely sucks @ss.

    - The very modern, very earthly joke about hold the line... was a very Jar Jar-Wayne’s World “exsqueeze me” moment to me. It seemed really out of place to me... do they have phones and Customer Service and sh*tty cell phone reception in Star Wars? BUT, I got over it because, after all, it is a new era of Star Wars.
    - I get the feeling Poe is the only pilot the Resistance has and has ever had.
    - Then the bombers... okay, well, there’s also no sound in space so I guess no biggie.
    - Leia in space... okay, this one really didn’t bother me at all because I could see Luke probably taught her some minor Force sh*t over the years. I didn’t care about any of this sh*t really anyway. I wanted to finally see my boy.
    - Then I finally get to see my boy...

    The entire rest of the film that whole theater was dead silent.

    Who was this Luke?

    - Setting the horses free and not meeting the code-breaker that you have to meet, but it was worth it????

    - Snoke the Great and Powerful Oz that bridged Rey and Kylo with ease but couldn’t see his own death coming????

    - Holdon jumps to lightspeed through the dreadnaught... WHAT IN THE HOLY F IS HAPPENING IN HERE?????

    - Luke’s wet noodle @ss finally shows up, but wait, no he didn’t really show up. DA FUQ???

    - Then his @ss dies?

    - And we are left with Kylo Ren as the end all be all bad guy not just for this trilogy but for the entire 9 episode saga???? This guy?? Him? The guy that ends up the butt of the joke every time he has a battle??????



    When it was over, everyone in that whole theater walked out in shock in silence. I literally couldn’t comprehend what I had just seen. How someone was given reign over this Episode VIII that clearly knew so very little about how the Star Wars galaxy works... how could this be?? I was literally in a state of shock. I could not believe someone could get so very much so very wrong. All you had to do was make it not suck, Rian, and YOU SH*T THE F’ING BED!!!!!! YOU COMPLETELY F’D UP STAR WARS YOU PIECE OF SH*T!

    And then once the obvious complaints came out, the response from both Kennedy and Johnson to any criticism. I could not believe that both of them weren’t fired on the spot!

    But the worst thing about all of it. This was such a monumental disaster, that it didn’t just ruin my night out and Episode VIII, no, it was such a collosal campaign of idiocy and purposeful smearing, it somehow killed my love and desire for Star Wars. For a long time I had absolutely no interest in anything Star Wars at all.

    I admit it, maybe I was into Star Wars more than is healthy? I don’t know, but they absolutely crushed my heart and then curb stomped it in front of me. And for what reason? What was gained by doing that to me and to so many others? Nothing. Nothing was gained. By anybody. I still don’t understand.



    Luckily, I’ve been able to cone back here more often and see what everyone here is doing and working on and I have been able to compartmentalize things a bit and rekindle something with 1-6, while pretending that 7 and 8 are just the most expensive sh*tty fan films ever made. So thank you all for that.

    It’s just really a huge mindF trying to come up with possible reasons as to why they did it like that, and what they honestly thought the response would be. If they got from the audience something other than what they 100% expected to get back from the audience, then these F’ers don’t understand a single thing about Star Wars. And yet they ended up in charge of it. It’s just a mindF, man. Just a mindF.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  7. Egon Spengler

    Egon Spengler Sr Member

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    I am still convinced that Snoke did see his death coming. As craptacular as a lot of this movie was, I still think Snoke wanted what went down to happen. The Emperor wanted Luke to kill him and turn fully to the dark side. I think Snoke wanted the same. No sarcasm.
     
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  8. Psab keel

    Psab keel Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Considering that 9 is supposed to be closing out the Skywalker Saga, what a downer this sequel trilogy really is.

    Kylo Ren is beyond saving. Han is dead, murdered by his own son. Luke is dead. The Empire, sorry First Order :rolleyes:, rules the galaxy and the Rebellion, sorry Resistance :rolleyes:, is in shambles.

    So everything Han, Luke and Leia fought for in the OT is completely undone and people wonder why we hate these new movies so much. They have to reset the entire series so they can retell it and do a lousy job of it at that.

    THIS is the Star Wars legacy? This is the conclusion of the Skywalkers? That they have to all die before there will ever be peace in this galaxy?

    Watch JJ try and have Kylo and Rey have a son and the son will redeem Kylo in the end.

    What a crock of *.
     
  9. Egon Spengler

    Egon Spengler Sr Member

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    Sadly, over all these new films so far have turned out to be exactly what I feared. It's a cheap copy that doesn't give a crap about the established past of the saga. Have you ever had a dream when you were a kid about meeting someone you've always wanted to meet, someone you admired, and in the dream it's just lack luster, weird, and a let down? That's the feeling I get when I think of the new trilogy.
     
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  10. Darth Fetty

    Darth Fetty Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I know Clone Wars isn't the most popular thing, but there were several creative and engaging story arcs in that series that would have been a solid basis for a full-length film (admittedly there are also some arcs that would have been better if they were forgotten). And those same engaging story arcs didn't need a super weapon as a plot device, but were quite character-driven. I definitely think it's possible to develop loads of creative stories in the Star Wars universe, and they don't necessarily need to be a large epic of good team vs. bad team.

    But instead of going the creative route, TFA rehashed the Death Star for the third time.... And TLJ also had Darth Vader/Kylo Ren kill the Emperor/Snoke in order to save Luke/Rey in a throne room with a space battle in the background (I'm still in shock at what a blatant copy that scene was).
     
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  11. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Andy, dude!! I had the same thing happen to me! 2017 was a total nightmare... I used TLJ to keep my mind off everything.

    When I left the theater I was so disappointed I actually wept myself to sleep...

    I use Star Wars to escape my pathetic life.. and what was delivered to us was completely pathetic... I’ll never hype another movie again...

    I can totally relate and understand where your coming from man. Hope things are looking better for you now
     
  12. kalkamel

    kalkamel Sr Member

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    Finally a new year's resolution I could probably keep!
    o2nv9ppcri721.jpg
     
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  13. Egon Spengler

    Egon Spengler Sr Member

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    Honestly people that boycotted Solo screwed the wrong movie. It was good. It was more like Star Wars than anything the new trilogy has given us. If anything just don't go see the last film of this trilogy.
     
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  14. Cephus

    Cephus Sr Member

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    No, Solo wasn't good. It was a complete waste of time. It took me forever to see it and frankly, I'll never watch it again. I'll get around to seeing Episode IX sometime too, but it'll be months after it comes out in the theater. I just don't care.
     
  15. joshvanrad

    joshvanrad Sr Member

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    Same. I'm glad I didn't spend any money on Solo, and certainly didn't miss anything by not seeing it in theaters.
     
  16. Psab keel

    Psab keel Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I didn't boycott Solo. I was simply not compelled to see it. Which is probably worse than being angry enough to boycott it. At least if I was angry I would have felt something. After 8 I've been feeling mostly apathetic towards the series, with the exception of the originals.
     
  17. mattycsi

    mattycsi Sr Member

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    Same here, no boycott. Just didnt care.
     
  18. Psab keel

    Psab keel Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Plus, what did Solo really add to the series that we didn't already know from watching the other movies? I had rightly predicted that it was just going to be a checklist of all the information we already knew about the character. Sometimes less really is more.

    This is about Calvin and Hobbes, but the basic principles apply to my argument.

    On Bill Watterson’s Refusal To License Calvin and Hobbes

    and one specifically about Star Wars:

    Star Wars, George Lucas, and How Copyright Term Limits Can Affect The Death of The Author

    Why J.K. Rowling Should Walk Away From Harry Potter Forever
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
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  19. joshvanrad

    joshvanrad Sr Member

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    Ok, so I've dumped on the last two Disney Wars movies quite a bit lately (and I'll probably continue to do so), but for now I'm going to make a list of a few things I'd love to see in 9. I'm not saying these things would make for a particularly compelling story, or that they would salvage the trilogy for me, but I think they're interesting concepts.

    - I would love to see the Knights Of Ren. I was really hoping we'd get to see them introduced in 8 as competent combatants against Jedi.
    - I loved the character of Rey in 7. I thought she was an interesting protagonist and the mystery behind her was interesting. 8 took her powers into a territory that just wasn't interesting anymore. I want to see her struggle in 9. I want to see her up against a force you honestly believe could defeat her. I want a little peril in her arc.
    - I want to see Luke back (ugh... unfortunately as a force ghost) to be the moral guidance for Rey. He needs to be redeemed and I feel like his presence during her struggle would improve both of their arcs a ton.
    - I want to see believable conflict between Hux and Kylo. I want to see Hux as the competent leader he was initially written as. I really want to see those two jockeying for the leadership role.
    - Unfortunately, at this point I don't think there is any happy ending for Leia with the departure of Carrie. I think the most you can do to leave Carrie's legacy unblemished is to have Leia pass away. I kept hoping it would happen in 8 as a motivator for Kylo's sort of redemption, but it never came. It could at the very least shake him from being the prototypical villain that he seems destined to be at this point.
    - I want to see the force tamed down a bit more. The force powers have been pretty wild in these last 2 movies, so I'd like it to be a little more refined and lessened. The force is cool because of its exclusivity and the mastery it takes to wield it. I'd like to see things get back to that.
    - I'd like to see Finn fulfill his arc. He was this close in 8.... make it happen.
    - I'd like to see Poe become a leader. He seemed completely dedicated to the rebellion and he's already the leader of a squadron. Make him an effective example for the rebellion.
    - Han's death needs to be reintroduced somehow and woven into Kylo's arc. Otherwise, Han was just a dawdling old idiot who died because he was stupid, and his death is completely meaningless.

    I'd be curious to see what other people are hoping to see.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  20. CutThumb

    CutThumb Sr Member

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    Strange that you should say that:

    Star Wars: Episode IX - Carrie Fisher's brother "thrilled" by Leia footage

    I'd like to think there is a way to redeem the franchise from the mess its been made into . As a huge fan of the OT I just hope to god JJ has had enough input from colleagues , friends and SW fans to take all our wishes into account and manages to pull the robot out of the hat ,so to speak (however bad it has become).I'd hate to see the opportunity wasted again.
    I have hope, but not a lot of it.
     
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  21. Cephus

    Cephus Sr Member

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    I didn't boycott it either, I just had no interest in seeing it. I haven't had much interest in seeing any of the Disney-era Star Wars movies. As far as I'm concerned, the franchise ended in 1983. Everything since has been bad fanfic.
     
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  22. Inquisitor Peregrinus

    Inquisitor Peregrinus Master Member

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    This is something I lay on George, as I've said previously. He's just not a natural storyteller, and always needed one to turn his ideas into a good narrative. His original model, in '76/'77 was six films each for Obi-Wan and Luke, before he compressed them to three each. But for all the content he wanted to convey, it really should have been nine each. That would also have fit even better with his (musical) canon model -- i.e., "it's like a poem -- it rhymes". Epicycles. a trilogy within a trilogy, which is itself one act of an even larger trilogy.

    There's a lot of good in the ST. And Solo. And the PT. And so on. It just all needed to have been unpacked and allowed to breathe. And information the audience needs put up on the screen -- not needing to be inferred or dug up from other sources.
     
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  23. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    The thing is...that's history. Remember Watchmen? Remember how Ozymandius says "In the end, I was right" and Dr. Manhattan says "The end? Nothing ever ends, Adrian."

    Once they opened the book to do new stories featuring the old characters, I pretty much knew that they'd be undoing the "happily ever after" ending of ROTJ. They had to. There's no other way to create drama to propel the story unless you find SOME way to undo the success of ROTJ. So, whether it happened before the point where we step in, or whether it happened right at the point where we step in or midway through Ep. VII, you know at the end of the day that whatever the OT heroes did is going to fall apart. That's the price you pay to bring back the old cast. There is simply no way to protect their victory AND have new stories that are about anything that matters.

    Pick a point of peace in history. Then trace it a little farther forward, and I promise you, you'll be in a war. The victory won is never a total and permanent victory. There's always a new conflict that upends the old order. The War to End All Wars is fought from 1914 - 1918, causing generational devastation for most of Europe. 18 years later, Spain is riven by civil war, which serves as a "dress rehearsal" for the Blitzkrieg that is unleashed by Germany in 1939, never mind Chamberlain's proclamation of "Peace in our time." Following the atomic destruction of two cities and the leveling of several others, not to mention the greatest death toll ever known in human war, what happens? Do the victors of the war finally secure a permanent peace and prosperity? No. Two superpowers threaten each other and their allies with nuclear annihilation, and wage proxy wars against each other for decades until one of them falls. In the wake of that fall, do you finally see peace reign? No, you see yet more localized civil war, terrorism both locally and exported to other nations, and a rise in tensions between world powers.

    Nothing ever ends. Victory is fleeting. The struggle is never over, and progress and prosperity are not assured.


    You ask me, the only way to tell a story that would've satisfied enough Star Wars fans (as opposed to general audiences) would have been to fling the story several generations into the future of the Star Wars universe, to a time when you're talking about something like Luke's great, great grandchildren, and where you could preserve in amber the victory of the OT heroes and let them ride off into the sunset. But once you decide you need to show them in your new films? Congratulations. You just blew up all they achieved because you have to.
     
  24. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Guys please, let’s keep the solo debate in the solo thread
     
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  25. Kovnyn

    Kovnyn Sr Member

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    I agree with Solo4114 in that the OT had to be undone to continue the story and include the OT heroes. But they did so in such a boring way. The FO destroyed the Hoznian system, home of the New Republic. And we're here like, so? It wasn't like Cosruscant was blown to bits. You know, the capital planet we've known about for years? This new seat of NR power held zero connection to the audience, so it's destruction felt like a way to force people to care, and we didn't. We hadn't witnessed the rise of the NR, after the fall of the Empire, so there was no emotional impact.

    Picking up the story where they did left far too many gaps in the emotional connection with the viewer.

    Undoing the success of the Rebellion is one thing, and yes, it was necessary. But the way in which they did it was an abject failure, in my opinion.
     
  26. Bigdaddy

    Bigdaddy Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    There were plenty of ways to continue the Skywalker saga (though completely unnecessary IMO) without making the events and triumphs of the OT meaningless. Without rehashing the same beats from the OT and still pass the torch to new characters. I never got the impression that ROTJ was a "happily ever after ending", just a happy ending.
    The direction they took was the easiest way to "reboot" and still pull in the OT fans. It worked a bit for TFA but TLJ walked the little bit of story they had right off a cliff.
     
  27. russellsch

    russellsch Sr Member

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    TFA could have been a good "starting point". Was it perfect? No. No. No, for the love of God, no. Han Solos death, for example, I knew it was coming the instant Harrison Ford said he was going to be in it. But what a complete wasteful & meaningless death. His death completely throughout his entire character arch. He went from SHOOTING FIRST, killing Greedo, & not caring, to "Hey son. You know, your mother & I would like you to... ow! That stings! & I never saw it... comin." But, the movie left you wanting to know more. Like, who is Snoke? How did The First Order come to power? Who is Ray? Where is Luke? How in the Hell was Luke's ESB lightsaber found!?! & so on.
    Aaaand then TLJ came, & I now no longer care, at all, what happens to any of the characters. It is, by far, the greatest example of a franchise killer that has ever been seen. & there's only one way to fix it. & that's in the opening crawl of Episode IX.

    Star Wars
    Episode.... VIII (Seriously, we mean it this time. We know you're expecting Episode IX, but come on. Let's just say, we're calling a mulligan. You'll have to wait a few more years to see the real Episode IX.)
    Ray has found Luke. She is about to hand him the lightsaber he lost, with his hand, in the battle with Darth Vader, so many years ago.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
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  28. Psab keel

    Psab keel Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I agree with you Solo4114. No conflict, no story. That's writing 101, and sadly the course of human history too.

    My overall point was that if Lucas or Disney, or whoever, is making more stories outside of the originals, then what are they really adding to the series from an artistic standpoint? In fact from what both of them have done, these additions have detracted from those movies because they have only rehashed what had been done far better by the originals. I know some may not agree but I think the articles I linked earlier made some pretty solid points to contrary.

    Looking at the series in chronological order I'd say Star Wars kind of comes across as a downer. The legacy of the Skywalkers and the fates of the people in their lives are overshadowed by failure, greed, evil and death. The tone of the thing has shifted entirely and not for the better. Star Wars used to be uplifting and fun. No longer.
     
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  29. mugatu

    mugatu Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Sorry about my last post. I kind of went off the deep end there... as 2018 has come
    To an end, and I’ve had plenty of time to consider what went wrong with TLJ, I do offer these few bits of concilliatory points:

    1. I am NOW much less angered at Rian Johnson. He no doubt is the person that wrote all of those things I complained about in my last post, however, if I look at things honestly, he was sort of handed a difficult task of explaining why Luke was missing from all of E7. Not only was he tasked with doing that effectively, but JJ had already passing hinted at the reasons Luke left and went to Ach-to. Basically he was given a garbage hand in 5 card stud. There was no reasonable way for Rian to come out a winner on that Luke point.

    2. The other issues I mentioned, other than Holdo crashing through the dreadnaught, I can get over. None of them necessarily killed any previous part of Star Wars. I was open for this not being the same Star Wars that I knew. I expected it to be different is ways I had anticipated and in ways that I could not anticipate. The Holdo thing though was just incredibly lazy writing with no attention paid to even 7 films worth of groundwork already laid on what can/does happen in the Star Wars film universe and what can’t/does not happen in the Star Wars film universe. It unsettles and spoils so much previous lore in the films, this to me is his greatest unpassable error of The Last Jedi. Unforgiveable and unthinkable.
    Now, did it look absolutely amazing? OF COURSE!!! But it completely wrecked any sense as to why there have ever been any large scale soace battles in any Star Wars film before it... which is all of them.

    3. I think the real problem with all of the post-purchase films has been management and planning. It is obviously more apparently an issue in some films more than in others, but it surely has impacted all of them in different ways. What I mean is this: the most paramount reason these movies got screwed up, and which could easily have been avoided, was Disney demanding and announcing unrealistic release date before any work had been done.
    Even back when George was doing these films, LFL, ILM were in perpetual states of research and preproduction, all the while George was refining his story for each film. Once Star Wars debuted there were teams of people already working on every level of the next film. They were entrenched. Once the ink dried on Disney’s purchase, the first thought was “let’s get that 4 billion back ASAP. How much time, beginning to end, do we give these Marvel movies? Two years? Okay, two years until the next Star Wars movie. Book it!”
    But they had no director, no cast, no script, not even a story... well they had an outline that KK basically took a huge dump on and then threw away immediately remarking “Thanks, but no thanks, George! By the way, can I have my knife back?”
    Time pressed on, and no director wanted to be responsible for the first Star Wars movie. Sure every director that was talked to would absolutely LOVE to write/direct a new Star Wars movie... just not that one. That one was going to be a career maker or a career ended for someone. And yet stupid greedy Disney kept the release date. You all know the rest of the story.
    And then basically the same thing happened when they should be securing the person to do E8 and again, no one would take it having to follow up the almost assured success of E7 with JJ aboard.

    Disney thought they could crank out SW movies like they do Marvel movies. And you know what, you CAN crank them out that quickly with zero planning or pre-production work, but you are only going to suffer in quality. E7 made the grade because it relied on old faces and low expectations, again, that it only need to not completely suck. For most fans it was much better than that lowly set bar.

    Anyways, when it crunch time and the Mouse wants his money, you basically make whatever deals you need to make with whoever is willing to play ball at the time.


    But enough about 8. As far as 9, my outlook is not good for them to be able to accomplish all of the following (in grand fashion):

    A. A fulfilling succinct stand alone film.
    B. A fulfilling ending for the ST that makes the ST itself more enriching.
    C. A fulfilling ending for a 9 film saga that also accomplishes A and B.
    D. Bring back all the fans driven away by TLJ.
    E. Not alienate the fans not driven away by TLJ.
    F. Somehow repair the character of Luke.
    G. Somehow have a villain worthy of being the key villain of the ST and the overall Saga.
    H. Have any space battles where every small ship isn’t jumping to lightspeed through a larger enemy ship.
    I. Have a conclusive and meaningful character/story arc for Rey.
    J. Have anything the ST characters will be doing have the gravitas to impact that entire galaxy.
    K. Explain the death of Leia in a reasonable and worthwhile manner with only current film footage.

    I hope they can do it. Its likely an unattainable order, but I do hope they can do it. I hope they can get 5 or 6 out of this.
     
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  30. Potroclo

    Potroclo Member

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    I feel a great disturbance in the Force... as if millions of expectations suddenly began to rise again... followed by yet another disappointment. I feel something terrible will happen...

    No but really, those wishlists for IX are the easy part, the natural developpement of the plot given the circumstances, I don't doubt JJ will see to it. Plus he's got room for it, after all, plotwise, TLJ is like a big fart in the wind. I mean sure, Luke's dead (yet he'll come back as a force ghost so it's not like he's been wiped out like Han), but we're pretty much in the same place as at the end of TFA. NO rules, Resistance is hiding, Rey has the Force, Poe's the best pilot, Finn's a defector...ok. Add "Kylo took Snoke's place and Luke is now one with the Force" to IX's opening crawl and you can pretty much skip TLJ.
    The devil will be in the details...
     
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  31. CutThumb

    CutThumb Sr Member

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    Here's the neatest summary about IX I've found yet on line from Empire. Really no spoilers at all, I was surprised by some of the newer cast members, but like many here I haven't really been interested enough to follow it. Matt Smith's role ????

    Star Wars Episode IX – Everything You Need To Know

    I can see an easy fit for that one.
     
  32. The Brahma Bull

    The Brahma Bull Active Member

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    If they make TLJ a dream sequence and ignore it for the rest of the saga (plus a fourth movie) episode IX could be saved. I don't even see anything to put in the trailer to make people care again.

    Rey has no arc, no story just nothing and is just annoying. Finn is a running gag. Poe is a cliche and the rest... well nothing.

    RJ destroyed Luke, the Force, the physics and even the fact that there's no script worse than The Room.

    I've no problem with JJ. And it doesn't matter who has to direct IX. They've to work with a huge mess and I cannot imagine anything good coming out of this.
     
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  33. PantheraGem

    PantheraGem Sr Member

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    For me, the good thing about this disaster, is that it's so bad and disjointed that it's really easy to not consider it canon. Whatever was meant to happen, the ST isn't telling that story.
     
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  34. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    I see your example re: the Hosnian system as less a problem with things being "boring" and more a problem with not handling world-building effectively. In ANH, they blow up Alderaan. We have zero reason to care about it (other than the same reasons to care about Starkiller -- a massive weapon of destruction capable of wiping out entire planets in a single shot). But the critical difference is that ANH is (for most of us) the start of a story. It's the first chapter, so ANH is doing all of the world building in front of us. We come in to it as blank slates and just accept what the movie gives us. You don't have that with literally any other film in the Star Wars series. Every film is building on what came before it (not just chronologically, but in terms of released films overall). Every film is counting on our understanding of how the universe works.

    This, to me, was always the essential failing of TFA, and it's what you identified yourself: they left too big a gap in information for the viewers to create an effective emotional connection.

    As I see it, TFA could've gone two ways in very broad strokes. You could do a "nostalgia/baton-hand-off" story that involves the OT characters closely, and has them passing the baton to new heroes who will feature in future stories. Or, you start as a blank slate, assuming the viewer is completely new to the franchise, and is picking up the story for the first time. It feels to me like TFA tried to do both at once, and that decision meant that you'd be spending time for new fans on old characters they don't really care about (especially given the production order of the OT and PT -- where a lot of fans in their teens and 20s are probably more connected to the Clone Wars era characters), and where the old fans are sitting around saying "Wait, WHAT? What the hell is going on?! Who is the Resistance and what's it got to do with the Republic? What the hell is Hosnian Prime and -- oh, wait, never mind. It's blown up now. But who's the First Order? Where'd they come from? Who the hell is Snoke?! WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!?!"

    I think they needed a lot more exposition in TFA, which would inevitably slow the movie down, which probably means they should have abandoned the trilogy format, which has never been conducive to telling the best possible versions of these stories anyway.

    >Ahem.<

    Anyway...yes, we have zero reason to care about Hosnian Prime or a lot of stuff that happens in the new film, because the film did a lousy job of explaining things and left folks spinning their wheels. Now, admittedly, the action of the film doesn't require any explanation of those things. It's irrelevant to the characters and their choices. Spending time on explaining them would be almost like breaking the 4th wall and would be more for the audience's sake. But, in my opinion, the film needed a good bit more to explain this stuff and "set the table" for the new trilogy.

    I'm actually not so sure. I mean, you're really just debating degrees of failure. The Rebels from the OT and the OT heroes defeat the Empire, set up the Republic, and hooray! Now something has to come along and upset the apple cart or you don't have a new story with any stakes. Whether it was a true "happily ever after" ending or just a basic happy one, something unhappy has to intercede to screw things up in a big enough way for the audience to care. And if you're relaunching the franchise, that probably means something that looks a lot like the new Empire, and some new dark side red-saber-usin' bad guy in charge of things for the NuEmpire. Maybe you have that all fall apart in front of us during the first film in an ST. But then you're still undoing the victory of the OT heroes. It just might've been a clearer, cleaner, more positive (albeit temporary) victory.

    The other issue is how to account for Luke? He's the real wildcard in this. Presumably he's more powerful by this point than he was in ROTJ, and he was pretty powerful in ROTJ anyway. So, how do you make him not steal the ST characters' thunder? You have to sideline him somehow, or he's gonna overshadow them. It's kind of the Gandalf problem. You need him running all over Middle Earth trying to figure out what's up with the Ring and Sauron and whatnot, or you need him stuck at the top of Orthanc or busy fighting off a Balrog or being dead and such, or else he'd be able to solve too many problems for the real heroes without them ever having to really break a sweat. So, that means either Luke is a jerk and doesn't want to help, or Luke is somehow tied up somewhere with something and can't help, or Luke is scared of helping or something. OR you make Luke a lot weaker than people expect him to be, which would * people off in other ways.

    The way I see it, there's really no way for the OT heroes to go on some last hurrah adventure that doesn't leave them all dead or diminished in some fashion IF you're going to have them hand things off to new heroes.

    Well, to be fair, we still don't know what will happen with Ep. IX. Maybe it'll end on a more uplifting note. I kind of hope it doesn't end with the same degree of uplift as ROTJ, though, because that just rings false at this point. Also, I'm kind of hoping that the ST merely sets up another trilogy for these new heroes. I think Ben is ripe for a face turn of some kind, perhaps leading him to become some kind of antihero. Basically, I just don't see how you get to the end of Ep. IX and say "Ok! That's it! These characters are done now." They've barely introduced/utilized them, and it just wouldn't feel right if at the end of the film, the First Order was utterly defeated.
     
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  35. joshvanrad

    joshvanrad Sr Member

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    I guess this raises a question that I like to ask: If the failure is that the Skywalker saga was already bookended. Would this trilogy have worked better separate of the Skywalker lineage? Do you think we could have a continuation of the current saga without direct connection to the skywalkers, or would it have to be COMPLETELY its own storyline?
     
  36. kristen jones

    kristen jones Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'd love to see them, too!

    She DID struggle in 9. She WAS up against a force that i honestly believe could beat her: Snoke. He DID beat her! every time she came at him, he flicked her away like a gnat. If it wasn't for Ren doing what he did, she would have perished right then and there.

    And since when is it not interesting anymore when the hero becomes the hero? Were you bored when Luke triumphed over the Emporer? Oh, that's right... he had help on that score from Vader... just like Rey had from Kylo.


    I agree... and I think we will see this. I mean, we know he's in it... and it's reasonable to assume he will be a Force Ghost. I think it's also reasonable to assume he will be her moral guide.


    I don't really think that's likely to happen. after all, Hux was always Snoke's plaything... and seemed almost happy to be so. Hux hasn't any Force ability that we've seen, and seems to be terrified of (and maybe fascinated with?) those who do have it. He considered shooting Ren when he was unconscious, but as soon as he awoke Hux put that notion to rest. In reality he has no real way of overpowering Kylo, and now that Snoke is dead, there is no other authority for him to fall under but Kylo.

    I am still hoping that he won't become that prototypical villain... that he will go another way. and if anyone can make that happen I reckon it's something to do with his Mother...whom he clearly still loves.

    Agreed.

    Agree again. I have really come to love his character, and want to see him really do something which makes him feel he has made up for his First order beginnings, and that he has found his calling.

    100%.
    I think Poe developed amazingly in 8, and I see him poised to become a great leader.

    I want to see that deed literally splitting Kylo to the bone. Snoke said it did, but I don't think we've seen that from Ben enough yet.
     
  37. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    I think if you tie it to the OT heroes, you tie it to the Skywalkers. The only way to do it without tarnishing their legacies is to fling it far enough into the future that you give them an actual happy ending, so that their accomplishments live beyond them. I think that means it's gotta be in the generation that would be Luke's grandchildren or beyond that point. And also that their actions didn't set in motion some chain of events that screws the galaxy. Then you introduce totally new characters and go from there.

    The problem with that approach is enough people would say "But it's not Star Wars without Skywalkers." I've long held the belief that "Star Wars" is a setting, not a checklist of people and elements. You can have Star Wars set in any time frame within the galaxy's history, featuring any characters, as long as you maintain the setting and certain elements like the Force, lightsabres, and blasters. Ideally, you keep it rooted in stuff that's familiar to people, but like, you don't have to have white-armored troopers to make it Star Wars. You don't have to have the Sith or the Jedi exactly. You don't have to view things as "it's always dark side vs. light side." You could introduce shades of grey if you wanted. There's lots you can do, as long as you expand it in such a way as to retain it being recognizably Star Wars in other ways.
     
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  38. joshvanrad

    joshvanrad Sr Member

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    I agree with absolutely ever single word you just said. I've held that same idea for sometime now. Star Wars is a world we know. You can do whatever with whoever in that world and it will still be Star Wars... regardless of the name Skywalker.
     
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  39. joshvanrad

    joshvanrad Sr Member

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    We clearly agree about some things and disagree about others. What a novel concept.
     
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  40. Psab keel

    Psab keel Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Solo4114 and kristen jones and Inquisitor Peregrinus I just gotta say, while we disagree on TLJ and a lot of points about the series, I thoroughly enjoy the ideas you all bring to the table. That's not to say that we disagree on everything Star Wars but I appreciate how much thought you all put into your arguments and remain respectful to those on the opposing side, going so far as to really try and see where others are coming from.
     
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  41. kristen jones

    kristen jones Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Cheers, guys! :)
     
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  42. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wondering if the “Luke” from TLJ will be retconned to actually to have been a lesser clone created by Snoke from the hand of the real Luke Skywalker, who will show up, in heroic fashion, during the last few minutes of the new film.

    Perhaps the story of the retconned clone will be part of the “story from another time” regarding how the Skywalker Saber ended up where it was in TFA.

    See? This franchise can be fixed so easily...
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  43. Inquisitor Peregrinus

    Inquisitor Peregrinus Master Member

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    We had a proxy, though, in Leia. We'd spent some time already watching her being heroic, standing up to Vader, standing up to Tarkin, their obvious respect for her strength, her message to Obi-Wan, etc. So when Alderaan was destroyed, while that scene was the first time we saw it, we felt her connection to it because of our connection to her. We knew her father was there. We knew Luke and Ben managed to escape the same fate by minutes. If they'd been able to leave Tatooine sooner, they'd have already been landed on Alderaan.

    Even if not all of that was conscious knowledge, it was operating on some level as our brains assimilated the information they were being given. With the quoted example of the Hosnian system in TFA, we don't even have that proxy connection. The only material that would have given us even a slight emotional connection -- Leia's aide -- was cut from the final edit.

    Yes and no... If it's to remain a numbered-chapter episodic saga, then the blank slate midway can't be a thing. It'd have to be a new story starting from Episode I again. Even if it had ties to the previous one. See the old Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers stuff. We got chapters of a story. Then we got chapters of the next story. Whether on the radio or Saturday morning cinema fare.

    But agree TFA felt like it was trying to do both. Makes me think of Enterprise. For what we got, it should have just been the early voyages of NCC-1701 under Robert April in the 2240s. Bonus points if a late-series refit gave it (as Drexler's concept art showed) a secondary hull, and the ship were allowed to evolve over the next twenty years into the ship we saw Jim Kirk get in TOS. But the messed everythign up by putting, essentially, a ship of the mid-23rd century into the mid-22nd and trying to tell a story of the founding of the Federation with it. With time travel. And emotional Vulcans. And Andorians with ears. And...

    If you hadn't already emphasized it, I would have. And, again, yes and no. It works when used right, which it wasn't. I swear, when I had my little epicycle epiphany while working on my Star Wars re-writes, the flash of insight probably lit up the room. It was so obvious in hindsight. One trilogy to do the wordbuilding and establish the thread; one trilogy to raise the stakes, develop characters, and sharpen the central conflict; then a transitional trilogy for resolution, denouement, introducing the main characters for the next cycle, and establishing the new status quo that will be upended by said next cycle. Example:

    My preliminary breakdown of the first cycle, focusing on Obi-Wan, is now:
    - Ep I: Tries to keep the exposition down, but still establish the Republic, the Jedi, and Obi-Wan.
    - Ep II: Political intrigue and shadowy assassins.
    - Ep III: Mandalorian splinter group secretly building a clone army. Obi-Wan discovers it, after a battle, Republic takes possession.
    - Ep IV: Second Clone War starts, Anakin is now a Knight. Marries Padme. Complications, but no stigma.
    - Ep V: Obi-Wan, now going by Ben, and Anakin kicking butt and taking names. Sith manipulation revealed.
    - Ep VI: Fall of the Republic, beginning of public opinion turning against Jedi. Luke and his sister (who isn't Leia) born.
    - Ep VII: Solo, early flashback stuff from Rogue One, Empire consolidating power, Obi-Wan retreats to Tatooine to watch over a young Luke.
    - Ep VIII: Essentially, Rogue One. Obi-Wan still peripheral, but not directly involved. Luke/Biggs reunion scene.
    - Ep IX: Star Wars/ANH. The end of Obi-Wan's arc and Luke becoming the new Hero. To be picked up after a break of several years with the Luke-centric cycle in its first episode, The Empire Strikes Back.

    There's a lot more, obviously, but that hints at the general timeline. There's room in there for worldbuilding and character development without bogging things down in talky scenes, or requiring audiences to fill in the gaps or read the tie-in books and comics.

    Well, the underlying problem there I lay at Rick McCallum's feet (as well as George's, for listening to him). It wasn't originally a Skywalker-centric story, so there would be nothing to uncouple. Having Luke pass the torch but remain a mentor presence would be possible, if handled well, as with Obi-Wan to Luke a generation prior. Characters from the previous cycle can remain presences without overshadowing the Heroes of the new cycle, if those new characters are given enough of a foundation to carry the story and, basically, stand up for themselves. Much as I like the new characters, I almost feel like this is the denouement of Luke's cycle, as mentioned above. It's still his story, with the new characters getting established in the background. The flaw, as Solo4114 and I have said, of trying to do too much at once.

    Skywalkers or no Skywalkers.

    I've always tried. "Your enemy is never evil in his own eyes." There's always a reason someone argues from the position they do, and they believe they're right in it. And since this is art, there's no objective right answer. Sure, there are semi-objective metrics to the construction of a story, of a film, etc., but after that, so much depends on subjectivity on both sides of the camera. I think one of the big sticking points between "like" and "hate" camps is in how the ultra-compression of the story robs characters and events of the time and flavor they need (which I and Dan definitely acknowledge), but also that there are a lot of blink-and-you-miss-it moments that have gotten crammed in that, if you do miss it, or if you catch it but misinterpret it, will utterly change what you take away from the moment, the character, the film...

    A lot of the arguments I've seen in the TFA and TLJ and Solo threads are people thinking they saw one thing, other people saying they saw that wrong, and the previous people insisting that no, they're right.

    But a lot are simple stylistic disagreements. Like with Solo. Yeah, it was ticking the boxes of Han's backstory as we've largely known from the EU for decades. But one, we'd never actually seen it before now; and two, some of those things (many, really) happened differently than we knew/thought we knew previously. Or in TLJ -- I adore Poe crank calling Hux. It is utterly in character (look how he sassed Kylo in TFA), and it proved he knew his target, as it turned out to be the perfect way to wind Hux around the axle and utterly distract him long enough for the Resistance to GTFO.

    It's been difficult to winnow those three main things apart into separate discussions. But civility costs me nothing, so I keep things academic. I love Star Wars and I love deconstructing things. Far as I'm concerned, ongoing debate just gives me more opportunity to do a thing I enjoy. If, along the way, I help someone enjoy something more than they did previously, hey... bonus. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  44. Kovnyn

    Kovnyn Sr Member

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    This is precisely what I was going to say. We had an emotional impact with the destruction of Alderaan vicariously through Leia, and Ben Kenobi. It was her home world, as Tarkin explained. What made it more impactful was the fact that Tarkin destroyed the planet not as a military target, but as a message. To instill fear in the galaxy and show the Empire was not to be trifled with.

    It was so devastating that Ben felt its destruction and the loss of so many lives through the force half a galaxy away.

    That resonated with the audience in a way the Hosnian systems destruction didn't.

    The reaction of the witnesses on Tacodana was lackluster. That one alien was still smoking his hookah, unphased. The lead up on Starkiller Base was like a parody of a WWII Third Reich display of force. The one little flash of scene from the perspective of the people on Hosnian Prime wasn't impactful at all because we didn't know who those people were.

    (they were left on the cutting room floor, and not even included in the deleted scenes or the novelization)

    IV showed the coldness of the primary villain, Tarkin, while VII gave us Hux, an unhinged madman.

    There has been some good things to come out of the ST, but it's overshadowed by poor, lazy writing, and badly rehashed classic ideas.
     
  45. PantheraGem

    PantheraGem Sr Member

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    Like many, I thought they blew up Coruscant.
     
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  46. kalkamel

    kalkamel Sr Member

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  47. The Searcher

    The Searcher Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for being off-topic, but when I saw “2015-2019”, I realized the ST started not long after the events of Back to the Future Part II and will conclude shortly after the events of Blade Runner. Really saddening if you linger too long on it.
    Considering screenrant’s support of the ST, this article was certainly unexpected.
     
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  48. oblagon

    oblagon Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Interested to see how they wrap up the series; with that said I thought 8 was hammered $hit.
    TFA was entertaining, but in my perfect world I would have liked to have seen the Thrawn trilogy with a full-powered Jedi Luke.
     
  49. Egon Spengler

    Egon Spengler Sr Member

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    Most sensible people would have loved to have had Luke used for more than just a grump in general.
     
  50. JoMamma_Smurf

    JoMamma_Smurf Master Member

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    This is such a good idea that at this point I would be pi$$ed if it didn't go down this way. Holy crap that's great!!!
     
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