STAR WARS Debate Settled? (Guess we're all vindicated, huh? :) )

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by Tremas, Jun 14, 2015.

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  1. Tremas

    Tremas Sr Member

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  2. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    The script in question was a reproduction sold at conventions and it never was in question, the original script had Han shooting first.
     
  3. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    But Lucas said that Greedo shooting first was always in the script! He says so in his commentary! Thanks for ruining my childhood.
     
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  4. Wolfsburg

    Wolfsburg Sr Member

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    Wow, I had no idea Lucas was making that claim. I just assumed he changed it in the SE to make it a bit more kid-friendly.
     
  5. JD

    JD Master Member

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    We're supposed to trust a source that says Luke was going to be called 'Skykiller?'

    I don't think there's a doubt that Han was supposed to shoot (first), not Greedo.
     
  6. J EM

    J EM Well-Known Member

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    Can you guys imagine that? Luke Skykiller?! :lol


    Idky but that makes me laugh
     
  7. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    I was 12 when the Special Editions came out and being at that young age, I didn't see the "Greedo shooting first" change as a moment intended to make Han look less cold-blooded. I thought it was a change to make the scene look more action packed. You know? Han is so cool he can dodge a blaster shot from six feet away! That's how I interpreted it. It wasn't until years later that I learned how big of an issue it was in the fan community and it wasn't until I listened to Joss Whedon's solo-commentary on Serenity when I realized just how influencing that creative decision had on filmmakers.

    Now knowing what I know now, the change is a complete failure in trying to convey a different perspective on the event. Han still kills Greedo like it's nothing and shows no remorse in his actions. Having him react to being shot was no different than having him react to Greedo's "That's the idea. I've been looking forward to this for a long time" retort.

    If Lucas didn't want Han Solo to come off as cold, he probably shouldn't have had him kill Greedo at all. There have been capable killers who use guns in such a way that it doesn't kill the person being shot. James Cameron did that for the Terminator in T2, and the anime show Trigun is practically built around that premise. Unfortunately, Lucas wanted Greedo to be killed by Han and changing it to be 'self-defense' doesn't really take away the 'cold' factor.
     
  8. Wolfsburg

    Wolfsburg Sr Member

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    Yeah I seem to remember reading an article about the SE back in the day and the claim was it was changed to "self-defense" to be more kid friendly. Pretty silly. If that was the case, I'm surprised they didn't cut out the shot of Ponda Baba's bloody severed arm or the Tauntaun being disemboweled by Han.
     
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  9. Rupert_Angier

    Rupert_Angier Sr Member

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    I always preferred that Han didn't shoot first. To me, Han was the only one that shot at all.
     
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  10. JD

    JD Master Member

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    The article says Skykiller. Everyone knows it was almost Starkiller.
     
  11. swgeek

    swgeek Sr Member

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    This is so stupid to me. First of all, how is this a debate? Until the special edition, Han shoots and kills Greedo before Greedo can get off a shot, period. Early drafts of the movie are just that, early drafts. All sorts of things change from one draft to the next, and even while filming. The only thing that matters is what ends up on the screen, and not what ends up on the screen when the director decides to go back and bastardize the original film.
     
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  12. Sourdoh

    Sourdoh Sr Member

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    Funny. I always thought that Greedo drew first, but Han got off the first (and decisive) shot. A classic Old West situation, which went along with Lucas' supposed original statement that he was trying to make a homage to movie serials.
     
  13. J EM

    J EM Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Even Starkiller makes some sense. Skykiller just sounds ridiculous to me. way up there
     
  14. matty matt

    matty matt Sr Member

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    This was never even open for debate.
     
  15. Sluis Van Shipyards

    Sluis Van Shipyards Master Member

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    Duh... :) I probably first saw SW when I was 3 in 1980 and I never once thought Han was a bad guy because he shot Greedo. As a kid that young even I figured out that Greedo was trying to kill him. Give kids some credit.
     
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  16. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Han didn't shoot first.

    Han shot. Period.

    Any other version of this scenario is stupid and unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
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  17. SVTStingRay

    SVTStingRay Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    EXACTLY.............and any statement of Han kills in cold blood is incorrect. Greedo was gonna kill Han.
     
  18. Wolfsburg

    Wolfsburg Sr Member

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    Totally agree. It seems like kids are underestimated these days.
     
  19. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    It's not even really a debate. You watch the film. Han shoots Greedo. That's that.

    I think the only reason this came up as a debate is the sort of mythology floating around about what Lucas said he "always intended" or "always wanted" or "was never satisfied with" and such.


    And you know what? Most of that, I think, is down to the fans, not Lucas himself. Lucas has said stuff about what he intended at different points, yeah. And he has changed his tune on some of that, as well as having his statements directly contradicted by what appeared on screen.

    But the more I think about it, the more I think it's the fans -- myself included -- that gave him credit as this master planner who knew all the details and structure and background info for everything, and had this grand plan for what he was going to do with everything, why he made every decisions, etc. We also credited him as a singular auteur, rather than one (critical) part of a larger creative process.

    And it was the prequels that dropped the scales from our eyes, basically. Well, the prequels and the special editions, and the interviews that followed. The whole sense of "GOTCHA!!! You SAID this, but then you LATER said THAT!!" comes as a result of our disappointment with the prequels, as well as George's unwillingness to say "Yeah, that was a mistake" in some way that acknowledged the fans were right. So when he defended some of his positions by saying what he "always intended," the fans jumped on it to prove him wrong (as if that'd matter somehow?). Like, we so wanted to catch him and shove in his face how wrong he was, as if that'd (A) vindicate our disappointment, and (B) I dunno, make him go change it back the way we wanted? Of course, that'd never happen.

    Lastly, I think that while Lucas has said in a handful of occasions that he "always intended" this or that, the attitude that he always intended something has probably been more widely attributed than it should've been. And again, I think that's down to us. I don't think Lucas has pronounced what his intentions were for every little niggling detail in the films, nor has he responded to every challenge made to him about why XYZ was different. Midichlorians? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I read how he actually addressed that. Han shooting first? I think that was more about "it always kinda bugged me a little" but we've turned that into "always intended." Basically, I think fans have attributed a notion of "I'm never wrong, it's my world, and if you don't like what I do, you can eat bantha poodoo," to pretty much everything he's done, and I just don't think he's actually said that much on so many subjects about the films. Some stuff, yeah, but not everything.

    Mostly, though, at this point, I just don't think it really matters what he's said. It's not his stuff anymore. He's not holding the creative reins. He's just a guy with some ideas, and while he is the creator, his ideas don't necessarily mean "And that's exactly what'll happen." As the creator of the world, he's got some insight into what he intended or how he imagined stuff, but it doesn't matter because the people writing the stories are going to do it their way.
     
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  20. CSMacLaren

    CSMacLaren Sr Member

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    What would Chuck Norris do in Han's shoes?
     
  21. Jaitea

    Jaitea Master Member

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    Greedo had his gun pointed at Han the entire time, infact had it pressed into his chest to back him into the booth

    J
     
  22. SofaKing01

    SofaKing01 Master Member

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    I am a little perplexed that GL thought to dumb this scene down for us. The relationship between Han and Greedo was already established when Greedo pushed a blaster into Han's chest - Greedo meant business! In self-defense, Han slowly drew is blaster. When Han says "... over my dead body..." Greedo's comments tell Han he is about to die. Unfortunately, for Greedo, Han acted. There was no reason, in my opinion, to alter that scene in anyway. Plainly put Greedo drew first. But like every baddie in every western... he simply "talked" to much.

    Also, I dont see much difference between the cantina scene and the scene in Raiders when Indy shoots the swordsman?

    However, GL has every right to change his mind and the scene if he chooses. I respect that. I just wish he / Disney will consider releasing the original theatrical version for those true die hard fans. Heck... it's a money maker! I'd buy it! :)
     
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  23. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    Disney doesn't own the distribution rights, Fox does in perpetuity.
     
  24. cboath

    cboath Master Member

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    I don't think that means Disney can't release it. They would just have to release it through Fox.

    Seems pretty stupid to not release it again, period, so as not to have to pay Fox. I mean, seriously, it takes no effort on either side of the spectrum and everyone makes money. If that's honestly what's stopping a re-release ever again, they're both guilty of pure corporate greed.
     
  25. SofaKing01

    SofaKing01 Master Member

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    Whether Fox, GL or Disney... I just wish somebody would make the decision to release the original. :)
     
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  26. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    We've been through this before. It's not likely to happen until the 2020s or so, and even then there's no guarantee. ESB and ROTJ distro rights revert to Disney around then, but Fox will own the rights to distribute ANH forever (or until they sell them).

    Disney can change this or that, and can choose to issue a release, but it has to go through Fox if they do. They just have no real incentive to release the OOT any time soon. Although, all of that's fairly off topic.
     
  27. Sourdoh

    Sourdoh Sr Member

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    Well, then he did draw first, huh? Yes.
     
  28. Jaitea

    Jaitea Master Member

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    From a certain point of view:cool

    J
     
  29. SofaKing01

    SofaKing01 Master Member

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    A certain point of view? ;)
     
  30. Sluis Van Shipyards

    Sluis Van Shipyards Master Member

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    Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view

    Are we doing that? :lol
     
  31. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I know it's sacrilege but for the most part I actually like the SE of Star Wars EXCEPT for 2 changes.

    Greedo shooting, and 'Jedi Rocks' in Jabbas palace. Personally I wish Disney would pull that crap out.

    The rest of the SE I'm okay with.
     
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  32. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    I'm ok with a fair number of the changes, too, but in addition to those scenes, I'm really not a fan of the Han/Jabba scene in ANH.

    My major gripe is that there is only the SE as the legal option to watch. Go ahead and tweak/update/whatever all you want, but at least allow consumers to see the original version if they want to, just remastered for modern displays.
     
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  33. Mara Jade's Father

    Mara Jade's Father Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Not sure if this was posted anywhere else as I know it has been out a few days and on Facebook as well but I thought I would post this here:

    http://www.cheatsheet.com/entertain...george-lucas-changed-his-mind.html/?a=viewall

    I'm like a few others here in that I enjoy the SEs and happy with the changes... except for the "Greedo shoots first" thing. I consider myself a very laid back fan. I usually find a way to except weird occurrences by either reminding myself that Star Wars is fantasy, not science fiction and that things in the Star Wars universe have reason for happening and we just don't have to knowledge to know exactly why.

    This new article really does not shine any new light on the issue for me. I think we already knew his reasons. Lucas argues that for Solo to become the type of person he is going to be, he can't shoot anyone in cold blood. However I think that is the flaw in his argument.

    Shooting first is not cold blooded. Han's life was in immediate danger. To me, the scene was an Star Wars version of a two gunfighters meeting on the street. The goodguy knows he is going to get shot. He knows that if the budgie shoots first, it's over. The good guy needs to shoot first in order to survive. If Greedo was sitting there with his blaster in his holster saying he was going to kill Han and Han snuck his blaster out under the table and shot Greedo, that would be cold blooded.

    The other issue of course is the idea that Han is going to let a guy 3 to 4 feet away make the first shot and hope he survives to shoot second is ridiculous. He either is hoping that Greedo is going to be the worst shot ever and/or that Han's reflex's are Jedi-like. Both of those just don't make sense.

    The only thing I can think of as to why Han is ok with Greedo shooting first is a scenario such as this: The word is out that Greedo is coming after Han and that he intends to collect the bounty with him dead. Han happens upon Greedo prior to the meeting in the cantina and without Greedo knowing, takes his blaster and bends the the barrel (or some sort of emitter setting) so that any shot will go high and right. So in the scene, Han knows Greedo will miss and his head movement is simply a reflex of the blaster bolt passing close to his head. Of course there is no hint of that happening.

    If Han is the type of character that would never shoot first, why does he fire on and unarmed Vader at Bespin?

    And ..

    Why is it okay for Luke to shoot first?



    Am I outraged by Greedo shooting first? No... not even close. I simply argue that the scene did not need to be changed in order for Han to be considered an honorable character and I hope that one day, it will be restored.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
  34. batguy

    batguy Sr Member

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    The whole thing was stupidly re-done in the SE. If GL wanted to make the change, all he had to do was add a shot that implies Greedo was on the verge of firing. Maybe he starts to squeeze the trigger, or a line of dialogue, etc. Han could still get the first shot off. Problem solved.
     

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