Star Trek related - I may get slammed for this..

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by DARTH SABER, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    When the new Trek film first came out I thought the design of the Enterprise was decent, but was never crazy about it.


    Anyhow, this week I started on a concept design project for, of all clients, Paramount -Star Trek II promo, and in the middle of the project I took a break and looked at all of my Enterprise models on my display shelf.
    Small TOS Enterprise model along with the larger Diamond Select.
    Small hotwheels Enterprise Refit with the larger Diamond select refit.
    And the new Playmates Enterprise along with the smaller BluRay giveaway Enterprise (which is surprisingly detailed for a BluRay giveaway) .
    The angle of the newest Enterprise happened to be a perfect profile shot with the light shining behind it giving off a perfect silhouette. All of a sudden I realized, that's actually an awesome design.
    Awhile back I always though the front of the nacelles were too thick, but after seeing the profile shot I think it works well.
    I also remember the longest time I couldn't stand the thin fragile looking rectangular nacelles on the TMP refit...but eventually the design grew on me and it became my favorite.
    My only small gripe about the new enterprise would be that the nacelles arent spaced enough apart.

    The new Enterprise along with the refit are now my two favorite enterprise designs.
    I think Ryan Church did a great job on this design and I dont think he got enough credit for his efforts.
     
  2. BlobVanDam

    BlobVanDam Sr Member

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    My only real gripes with the new design are, as you stated, the nacelles are too close together. Looks fine in side view, but when you see above it doesn't look right to me. It makes it look sort of "top heavy"? Doesn't have a nice front/back symmetry.
    My other problem is that the secondary hull is too swept forward. It comes too far forward from the neck, and the angled sweep along the bottom goes too far forward too.

    These didn't bother me one bit when watching the movie though. It has to be at the right angle for me to notice it. I like a lot of the other design changes, like those chunky nacelles, and the saucer section looks just fine.

    You're never going to please everyone. Some fans are going to complain if you make any change at all, and some people probably would have complained if they'd stuck too religiously to the original design too.
     
  3. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    It's a beautiful ship.
    Hope you can share your involvement at some point down the line.
     
  4. cayman shen

    cayman shen Master Member

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    As stated, if the nacelles weren't so pinched together, I'd be fine with it.
     
  5. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    I just hate it when my nacelles get pinched together;)
     
  6. jcoffman99

    jcoffman99 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Depends on who's doing the pinching. :)
     
  7. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    When I first saw pics of the ship leaked online, words like "abomination" immediately sprung to mind.

    Took me two and a half years to get over it. :lol

    I don't mind it all now really. I just wish they hadn't gone with the "souped up hotrod" look for the nacelles. If they had just put on the same nacelles as the other ships had it would have been perfect.

    And I understand that this was supposed to be "bigger/better/badder" blah blah blah...

    There comes a point where the exaggeration of size=strength goes too far and it becomes more of a caricature. Like drawing impossibly oversized wheels on a drag racer in which the car itself points downward at a 60 degree angle.

    The rear section (just before the shuttle bay) could be a wee bit longer for my taste, but this is no big deal at all.

    Otherwise I actually like the design of the ship.


    Kevin
     
  8. BAK55

    BAK55 Well-Known Member

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    When Roddenberry originally requested a design for a starship, he emphasised that it be believable. Designers today seem to try to go for the WOW factor more than what would be believeable.

    When I see this-
    [​IMG]

    I think of this-
    [​IMG]

    The designs are simple, sleek, and are what they are meant to do.

    Now, when I first saw this-
    [​IMG]

    With it's swept back support pylons, I immediately thought of this-
    [​IMG]

    These designs both still have that feeling of movement without going anywhere, but the starship had lost edgeiness.

    Now we have this-
    [​IMG]

    Which simply goes for the WOW factor like this-
    [​IMG]

    I'd like to see something more believeable again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  9. NakedMoleRat

    NakedMoleRat Sr Member

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    I too am a fan of the new design. I only with that the nacells were sitting higher, with the bottom of the warp engins abouve the saucer section.
     
  10. SVTStingRay

    SVTStingRay Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    i didnt care for the design so much, then the whole "scale" issue came up in the movie and i liked it even less.
     
  11. Michael Bergeron

    Michael Bergeron Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm with BAK55 except my favourite version is the TMP. I think the thing that bothers me the most about the nu-trek version is the chrome on the front of the nacells. Who the hell puts that much chrome on a utilitarian vehicle like that?

    I do think they're too big though.
     
  12. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    I can't stand the Abrams Enterprise. What's with the saucer support pylon sweeping alllllll the way to the back of the secondary hull? It just doesn't have any grace about it at all, which is the main reason I've always hated the Next Gen Enterprise, it's nacelles are so...stubby. They should have been at least a third longer.

    Now, TMP Enterprise...there's a ship with beauty and grace. Her swept back nacelle supports, the large saucer, the torpedo bay, the smooth dish....her lines just scream speed, power and grace.
     
  13. Kerr Avon

    Kerr Avon Master Member

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    Lines that scream speed? I guess if you think physical shape in the vacuum of space matters, sure.
     
  14. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    No. Thanks for condescension, by the way. Makes everyone think you're really smart.

    A visual representation of speed and size in a narrative that is based in a visual medium need no explanation for its effectiveness, regardless of any literal considerations that might be unnecessarily placed on the design.

    Star Trek is not a documentary about the far reaches of space. It's a metaphor. The further they travel to "strange new words," the deeper is their inward exploration of the human spirit.

    Sorry all you can think about is that an equally unrealistically-shaped model from the sixties looks more "REAL."
     
  15. GoGators

    GoGators New Member

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    [​IMG]

    LOLOL, Sorry, I was emailed this gif and wanted to share it somewhere....:lol
     
  16. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    I could be mistaken but I dont see any chrome on the front of the nacelles.
    Maybe you're thinking of the tinted transparent domes that look a bit like chrome when the nacelles are off?

    On a side note, the only enterprises that really grab my interest are TOS, TMP and the new enterprise. I think all other incarnations of the Enterprise are horrible.
    Especially TNG, with it's over sized oblong saucer, tiny flipper like nacelles, stubby body, the tiny pilons which jut out horizontally and then gradually curve up to a 90, and the overboard amount of windows (which appear to be about 20 feet long each)
    The TNG enterprise reminds me of Stewy from family guy...Giant head, tiny body.
     
  17. dbhs

    dbhs Well-Known Member

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    I like the details of the new ship but not the proportions. They just seem way off. A while back I took a side view and modified it to proportions that I thought were more ballanced.

    What I did was enlarge the saucer. Slide the saucer and neck forward on the secondary hull. Enlarged the height of the secondary hull, but not the length. And finally, shortened and narrowed the nacelles.

    To me this seems a lot more ballanced.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Kerr Avon

    Kerr Avon Master Member

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    Right, Star Trek is about the people and the things they do. So why all the complaints about the aesthetic when it is wholly irrelevant to the movie? I liked the Borg because they really cut things down to the truth of space travel, shape is irrelevant. Also, the lens flares were limited in the Borg ship or they offer to implant sunglasses for free.

    Me I like the Agememnon from "Babylon 5" or the Liberator from "Blakes 7" Ships that scream shape doesn't matter in the vacuum of space. Just because you put racing stripes on a ship doesn't mean it goes any faster in space. It's purely about the mass of the ship and the output of the engines, shape is pointless.
     
  19. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Shape is never pointless, whether in fiction or reality...because we're humans and as humans we aspire and are attracted to things of grace and beauty, in short things that we feel represent the qualities we want our ships to project. We want to be proud of the vessels we design both from a functional AND an aesthetic standpoint, which is why mankind builds seagoing vessels that are not only hydrodynamic but are also beautiful to behold, even though that beauty has nothing to do with the functional nature of the ship. People live and work on vessels and are intricately and emotionally linked to them, thus they want to be proud of how their ships look. It has always been that way and always will. The day we lose it is the day we become as heartless and lacking in artistry as the Borg. So yeah...aesthetics matter quite a bit.
     
  20. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and incidentally, DBHS....your modified Enterprise is FAR superior to the original. Take a bow, it looks great. :thumbsup
     
  21. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    You're right! Visual aesthetics are irrelevant! I mean, why even pour so much money into them. Why watch a movie? We should all just close our eyes and listen. Listen to the deep and inspirational message that Star Trek '09 sends. Listen to the morals that can be garnered from it. Listen to the thought provoking plot... don't look at it. Just feel the warmth of the lense flare wash over you like a thousand suns.

    True, when I see this:

    [​IMG]

    I see this:

    [​IMG]

    And when I see this:
    [​IMG]

    I see this:

    [​IMG]

    So let us close our eyes and revel in the genius of Nero, Red Matter, a punk being promoted to captain straight out of the Academy and Scotty in water tubes.

    Movies aren't about visuals anyway. If you want visuals, go to a museum!
     
  22. Fizbin

    Fizbin Well-Known Member

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  23. Flagg

    Flagg Sr Member

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    Ive been using that as my sig line on here for years now. :p
     
  24. CB2001

    CB2001 Master Member

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    Sorry, but as I've stated before, I have no amount for love for Abrams' Apple Enterprise with the iBridge design and massive lens flare he used to the point where it seemed like he was trying to cover up a poor choice in set design. I don't care if it's suppose to have a hot-rod like design, I'm sure there's a fan that came up with a better redesign than the one Abrams went with.
     
  25. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    The ship has moving parts. That's not good.

    Not a fan of the neck Photon Torpedo launcher either. Looks like the Enterprise was smoking way too many cigarettes and needed one of those "hole in the necks" just to breath. I know the refit had the same thing, but at least you could see it blend in with the secondary hull and that it could be accessed via shuttle pod.

    Also, the relationship between sets and models is extremely poor on the new Enterprise. How is it that the Torpedoes are loaded into two chambers that are against the walls in a small room when there is one torpedo launcher facing forward and not sideways? The Budweiser engineering doesn't help matters when the sheer scale of the engineering section cannot possibly fit in a ship that size.

    Remember in TMP's engineering room? You could see the warp core extending down a long corridor and splitting into two cores that extend vertically up where the warp engines would be? That was a fantastic way of showcasing exactly where the characters are in the starship. Even the shuttle bay was perfectly married to the physical model.

    And who's bright idea was it to put the transporter room behind the bridge of the new Enterprise? What if we need to beam over a hostile enemy? I don't think having the bridge right across the hallway is a smart idea.
     
  26. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Oh no! The crew of Voyager must been in big trouble too! :eek


    Kevin
     
  27. cayman shen

    cayman shen Master Member

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    Ugh, the more I look at it, the more I hate it. I take back my previous comment...it's hideous!
     
  28. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Meh, I still like it.
     
  29. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Honestly still pics really do make it look wonky, however in the film (and constantly moving) it doesn't look so bad (to me at least). There are only a couple of shots in the movie that are from a bad angle.


    Kevin
     
  30. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    I still think it's as crap as ever. I can't stand the proportions: the reduced-size secondary hull and the way the neck tries to reach the butt end of that hull. It reminds me of all that bugs me in contemp. car design; headlight assemblies trying to sweep back to the wing mirror and all that rubbish.

    Plus it's over-streamlined, thus making the original one look the more believable spaceship, as someone else pointed out.
     
  31. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Oh, I had the same issue with Voyager as well. What's the point of having the nacelles tilt? What are the benefits of the nacelles being down that warrants moving parts? What if the mechanics of moving them break?

    I stand by my fundamental design philosophy that anything that moves, will break. That's why I liked the original design so much was because the exterior is very well organized with a lot of the important stuff being "internal".
     
  32. J Scorn

    J Scorn Sr Member

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    ive never liked the moving parts on the voyager ship, i once asked someone 'who knows these things' why they move and i was told its to create a different shape warp bubble around the ship so it was able to reach the speeds of larger ships......

    or so i was told


    .
     
  33. Hotshot

    Hotshot Sr Member

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    Liked the design, loved the movie. Tired of the *'
     
    epilepticsquirl likes this.
  34. Mechinyun

    Mechinyun Sr Member

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    From hell's heart I stab at thee!!! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

    [​IMG]
     
  35. robn1

    robn1 Master Member

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    Hated the design, hated the movie. Tired of people liking it ;)
     
  36. Mechinyun

    Mechinyun Sr Member

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    I enjoyed the movie, props and uniforms I can deal with, im just not happy about the big E design, inside and out.

    Ill always have the refit though, my love :)
     
  37. JMChladek

    JMChladek Sr Member

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    To me, every Trek ship has elements I like and dislike. Part of that is down to the filming angles. All the Enterprises have really looked their best from maybe two angles at most as at other times they just look kind of weird.

    As for the JJ design, I admit I was curious but didn't quite fully warm up to the design until I got the Hot Wheels diecast (I already had the Playmates toy). The Playmates ship just looked weird to me and I didn't fully realize it until I got the Hot Wheels ship and noticed that the Playmates ship is scrunched up front to back. The HW version being a little more stretched out looks better to me, kind of with an element of "Excelsior" thrown in but without looking like an NBA basketball player in the process (like the Excelsior does on some angles).

    There are some minor things on it I still don't like, but it is a nice update to the design IMHO and still looks like the Enterprise. The interior silliness is what I had more of a problem with than the external look of the ship itself (please get rid of the brewery engine room and the lens flares for the next film!).
     
  38. Angelus Lupus

    Angelus Lupus Sr Member

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    I was gonna comment, but darthgordon said everything I wanted to.
    I personally love the original and refit, thought the more I see awesome builds of the original the more that one edges forward in my favourites.

    But what do I know? I'm one of those weirdos that thinks the Ambassador class is beautiful. :lol
     
  39. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The JJ-prise is an exaggerated grotesque characature.


    Bloated nacelles mounted well out of balance.
    Structural beams blocking the hanger bay! watch out on final approach.
    The bridge is a mall boutique.
    Engineering is beyond words to describe how un-starship like it is.

    Matt Jeffries and Roddenberry were both pilots and military men.
    They knew instinctively what real vessels of service look.

    The people that designed the JJ-Prise were clearly not cut of such cloth and
    it's painfully obvious.

    The TOS E looks lke something out of Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works.

    The JJ-Prise looks like something drawn by a street artist who draws your kids with big cartoon heads.
     
  40. BAK55

    BAK55 Well-Known Member

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    Well said!!! (y)thumbsup(y)thumbsup:thumbsup
     
  41. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    I liked the Enterprise C. :confused


    Kevin
     
  42. clancampbell

    clancampbell Sr Member

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    I like the JJ Prise......i feel sometimes that there's too much rigidity in Trek design, too much, "oh....no,no,no....that won't do at all...."

    I liked that the Nu was....different....daring.....unusual, but retained that essential Star Trek-ness....like the Excelsior. I feel a lot of "accepted" Trek ship designs miss the mark far more than the JJ does....like Voyager, Defiant, Ambassador Class......

    But, it's just an opinion and it's all about beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

    Rich
     
  43. Hotshot

    Hotshot Sr Member

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    Yea, I totally get that! Once the Defiant came on the scene, I gave up and just started accepting the designs for what they were. I do like the fact that most designs do fit into the world, but there are those oddballs like the Defiant.

    The first time I saw the Ent-E on screen, my jaw dropped. It was so new, but had all those great elements, like the pylons. I'm a sucker for any Federation ship with long legs. ;)

    But, to each there own. I could go on for days over the design of the newer looking ships in the SW prequels, but that's another thread.

    I WOULD like to see reddish orange bussard collectors and a slight shrinking of the nacelles overall. The brewery was a neat idea, but poorly exectued. I get the boiler room idea, but come on, feed bin warp cores? Yuck . . .
     
  44. TheDoctor

    TheDoctor Sr Member

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    Actually, the official-"unofficial" explanation for why Voyager's nacelles moved was to avoid the "Warp Speed Destruction" effects seen in the TNG episode where they find that Warp Speed is destroying the fabric of space. Later ships don't have bending nacelles because they found another way to fix the problem.

    Mmmm-hey!
     
  45. TheDoctor

    TheDoctor Sr Member

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    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your analysis of the JJ-prise, but Jeffries and Roddenberry designed the Enterprise before NASA designed the first Space Shuttle - hence the JJ-prise looks more Space Shuttle than Aircraft Carrier.

    In terms of Military-designed gear, the Navy's ships have always been ugly and utilitarian - even today. Now the Airforce, on the other hand, has some nice kit.
     
  46. GoGators

    GoGators New Member

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    Haha! It is a great sig :p!!! I didnt see that until now though. I was emailed this in response to a christmas email describing what was going on in my life over the last year...

    Cheers mate!:cheers
    Gogatos
     
  47. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    I agree.

    I can appreciate the sentiment that the original Enterprise had a real-world ship style, but then again that was based on the real-world concept of space crafts during the mid to late 60's.
    Any new technology's first incarnation is going to be more practicality than style....As technology improves, more design aspects will be added.

    Look at what jets looked like when they were first invented, and look at what they look like now.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Is one more real-world than the other?
     
  48. glorbes

    glorbes Active Member

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    I liked the new Enterprise just fine. It looked awesome on the big screen. The original and the Refit are still tops, though.
     
  49. CJS

    CJS Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Perfectly explained
     
  50. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    [​IMG]



    More like this...

    [​IMG]


    And yes that is an actual flying aicraft.
    I think it flys by repelling the earth through pure ugly.
     

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