Star Trek Nemesis Data...is he

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by DarkKnight, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. DarkKnight

    DarkKnight Sr Member

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    spoiler if you havent seen this movie












    his last words the "goodbye" were so powerful, do you think he still lives, was there ever a sequel written? "Star Trek the Search for Data"?
     
  2. lordtalon

    lordtalon New Member

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    Last I heard, there was no official sequal written, but I believe that there is a novel or two out there where Data's mind had been backed up in B4 and he was slowly taking over.
     
  3. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    It's clearly set up for him to come back. The comic book prequels to the latest Star Trek which show the destruction of Romulus and the Nero/Spock interaction show Data revived in B4's body as captain of the Enterprise-E.
     
  4. YenChih Lin

    YenChih Lin Sr Member

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    non canon
     
  5. Roland

    Roland Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    In my opinion all those comic books and novels don't count. Canon is just what we see in the TV shows and movies.
     
  6. tgreco

    tgreco Sr Member

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    it was billed as "A Generations Final Journey Begins"

    I don't think there was a sequel ever planned
     
  7. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    I see no need for a spoiler alert as the movie is already very spoiled. ;) :sick


    Seconded.


    However much like Spock's "Katra" they pretty much set it up (as already mentioned) that B4 would evolve into Data II.

    In Nemesis-

    Data sings "Blue Skies" at Troi and Riker's wedding reception...

    Data downloads all his memory patterns etc into B4...

    Data scarifices himself to save the day...

    B4 sings the first verse (with a little help) of "Blue Skies."


    So it's pretty blatant that (if the movie didn't completely suck rotten eggs and fail miserably at the box office) they planned on having B4 "learn" to be Data in the next film(s). This would probably have been a rehash of Spock's retraining going from "'Your name is Jim!' Spock" in ST:III to "Rainman 'I liked him better before he died' Spock" in ST:IV & V to "Good old Spock" in ST:VI.


    But as it stands the TNG era movies are forever over and done with. So we are left with Data dead, and a glimmer that B4 remembers who he was.


    Kevin
     
  8. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    :lol

    Not really.

    For a film that was supposed to be the last voyage of a long loved cast of characters, it was instead handed to a man who didn't care about Star Trek and couldn't give the time to pronounce the actor's names right. Stuart Baird, John Logan and Rick Berman are the three individuals who succeeded in doing what William Shatner almost did. Kill the franchise. With Patrick Stewart's big popularity boost with the X-men films and his enormous salary to take part in the movie, the film's story was written to be so Picard focused that the only way it could glorify Picard more than ever done previously was to do things that were out of character and cringingly stupid.

    For example, Patrick Stewart loves driving. He says it all over the behind the scenes videos. How do we get Picard into a car chase with guns and explosions while fitting in with the rest of the story and his character's principles? The film's answer? You don't. Just stick it in there and don't worry if it has anything to do with anything established. The aliens on the planet will never be referenced again, Picard attacking and killing pre-warp natives while doing nothing to be stealthy is never mentioned, and his attitude regarding the Federation Principles that beat us over the head again and again about the Prime Directive isn't even a factor.

    Oh, and remember how much the film tried to convey that how one experiences life will shape him/her to be the person they will be in the future? And how sometimes there is an urge to be a better person? Well, when Picard has Shinzon right in his ready room, does he tell Shinzon about what his academy days were like? Did Picard tell Shinzon that one day he picked a fight with an aggressive alien who stabbed him through the heart and must now use an artificial heart that must be maintained periodically? No. Instead, Picard tells Shinzon that his heart is the same as his.

    :facepalm

    And the part to become a better man? Shinzon started out as an experiment, abandoned to the mines, worked his way up with his Reman comrades, and managed to over throw ALL OF THE ROMULAN EMPIRE. So from Shinzon's point of view, all Picard is telling Shinzon is "You could be nice every once in a while".

    And this whole thing involving Data and B4 was also heavily mismanaged. This could have been LORE, or another attempt at Lore since Data was made first. So instead of taking every precautions with another Data that has proven in the past to be a psycho path murderer, Data and Picard agree that giving all of Data's memories to B4 is the right thing to do. Not his behavior perimeters, not his reasoning programs, and not even basic Federation knowledge. ALL HIS MEMORIES. How can they be this stupid?

    This is why I don't like either Nemesis or Trek09. Both have stories with bland stories, annoying dumb villains who only matter because the plot just threw them a bone (Shinzon with Thaleron, Nero with Red Matter), and it was all made to try appealing to a wider audience. The only reason Trek09 succeeded was because it managed to be entertaining.

    Nemesis felt like saying goodbye to your dog of many years in the worst way possible. Instead of being with him/her on their final day and making sure they're comfortable and loved, someone else comes in and decides to do it for you. Not only can they not remember your dog's name, but they drag the dog outside, shoot it in the head and won't even give you the decency of knowing where your dog was buried. All of that and they still expect a tip and a pat on the back for a job well done.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  9. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That was the last Next Gen Movie there were going to be no more.

    Brent also had great input to killing off Data as he felt he was to old to portray him anymore.

    I saw him a few years later and asked him if they threw a bunch of money his way would he do it and he said no not that the studios would :lol


     
  10. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    So why all the hints that he could come back?
     
  11. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    "We're picking up a positronic signal..."

    ...from lightyears away. :rolleyes
     
  12. ReproMan

    ReproMan Well-Known Member

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    just to keep people talking about the movie? lol
     
  13. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Oh they accomplished that.

    What a sad way for the Next Gen crew to go out...they deserved better :unsure


     
  14. SmilingOtter

    SmilingOtter Master Member

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  15. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    As I understand it, some were banking on it being the last TNG movie, while others were not.

    The studio was already pushing Rick Berman to retire the TNG cast and go with a younger one. They felt the cast was getting too old to maintain their appeal.

    Patrick Stewart was getting tired of playing Picard. He was open to the idea of doing another movie... but was leaning more toward ending it. He wanted to do other things.

    Brent Spiner felt that he was getting too old to play an android that wasn't supposed to age or if did, aged more slowly that humans. At this point, he had a lot of pull and was friends with the writer. So he pushed to kill Data off.

    The rest of the cast was ready to do more movies, but was growing unhappy with the fact that they'd started to become background characters.

    Berman wasn't quite ready to give up on the TNG cast but had to accept the possibility that it might be the last movie. He was banking on Nemesis being a big enough success to get the green light for another movie.

    So the ending is intentionally left with the possibility of another movie. But since the studio was already wanting to retire the TNG crew and the box office numbers were beyond disappointing, it pretty much put the final nail in the coffin.

    Now as we know, if it's not on the screen it isn't canon. So there's no canonical answer to this question.

    Obviously, because of this, the comics and books set after Nemesis are not considered canon. However, since there will never be another TNG movie ( :( too bad THAT had to be their swan song), I prefer to take the explanation that Data's mind emerged in B4 and he continues his career in Starfleet for several years.
     
  16. phase pistol

    phase pistol Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Where teh heck did Shinzon get yet ANOTHER totally unknown Soong android in the first place?! :cry

    That's what I kept screaming throughout the entire film. :D

    k
     
  17. 0neiros

    0neiros Master Member

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    Those saying those comics are Non Canon are mistaken. They tell the back story leading up to Trek 09. The whole loss of Romulus, The Jellyfish, Red Matter, WHY Nero hates Vulcans (they basically stonewalled things in the Federation Council, until there was no saving Romulus) where the Narada came from, (which is a part Borg ship if you didn't know or couldn't guess). If you read them, THEN watch The movie, things make a Hell of a lot more sense. What saddens me is the the studios just feel that a movie like Trek 09 HAS to fit in the 90-120 minute span, when if you gave it another 30 minutes to clarify things, would make a superior product. Hey Studios...30 more minutes = people needing more food and drink, which = more $$$.
     
  18. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    According to Dr. Tainer, there were three androids created before Lore. Each of them experienced a cascade failure in their neural nets. Shinzon would have had to have procured one and repaired it. Of course, this seems far fetched given that even Dr. Soong couldn't repair them.

    But then again, the movie is wrought with problems...

    Schinzon assassinates the Romulan Senate and is simply allowed to take over as Praetor.

    The Enterprise is able to detect a positronic signal from light years away.

    Worf appears out of nowhere in a Starfleet uniform, even though he was supposed to be the ambassador to Kronos.

    There's a tiny emergency transporter that's a fraction the size of the standard transporter, but for some reason there's only one of them on a ship full of replicators, scientists and engineers. It somehow not only beams a person, but itself. This means that it has to dematerialize itself and while it's dematerialized, rematerialize not only the person in transport, but itself.

    Picard was bald at the Academy and knew Dr. Crusher.

    Say nothing of the characters acting out of character and the hollow villain, the missed opportunities that could have been done with the Romulans and Lore...
     
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  19. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    Do you buy more food and drink for a movie that's 2 and a half hours long than one that's two hours long?

    I think you've got the economics backwards there. Longer movies are bad for the theaters because they can't cycle as many bodies through showing a 2.5 hour movie four times a day verses a 2 hour movie five times a day. That extra half hour of length is one extra showing they lose over a ten hour period which means lost ticket sales and lost concession sales from those lost ticket sales. Kids movies are awesome for theaters: they're short so the theater can run more showings a day, a parent or two has to take the kids, and the kids all want candy and popcorn and soda.
     
  20. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    Well he did have a lot of military support from the Remans. How much resistance is a guy with a ship that can blow up the planet and just assassinated the entire governing body going to get? I'm fuzzy on the TNG Romulan government stuff, but is there anything that contradicts the Roman senate kill to get promoted schtick?

    We can't just all assume he changed jobs again? That's Worf's thing (aside from being tossed around like a rag doll in TNG to show how strong the bad guy race of the week was). Seem to recall there was deleted dialogue referencing him and Wesley rejoining Starfleet and planning to join Riker on the Titan.

    The only way that makes sense to me is if it's a signal booster or something. They also forget that there are cargo transporters separate from the personnel ones, and that most if not all of the shuttlecraft should have transporters as well on their own power supplies.

    What, they don't have razors in the future? He couldn't have just gone through a phase in the Academy between bar fights and and getting stabbed in the heart where he shaved his head?
     
  21. SmilingOtter

    SmilingOtter Master Member

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    The comics were worse than the two movies. The whole "the Narada is in telepathic contact with Nero" bit, along with "How can we figure out where and when to find Spock... I know, find V'Ger, it can tell us!" That's just... bad.
     
  22. eclipse74569

    eclipse74569 Active Member

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    It's also my understanding in TNG that Jean-Luc knew Jack and Beverly Crusher long before Jack and Jean-Luc served on the Stargazer...
     
  23. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    Dr. Crusher was born 2324, Picard graduated from the Academy in 2327. She would have been 3.
     
  24. Capn_Jack_Savvy

    Capn_Jack_Savvy Sr Member

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    Well we do know that Brent Spiner was last seen selling MIB LCDR Data action figures out of the back of his car in the Pasadena, California area.:lol

    Since Data managed to time travel in ST-TNG episodes AND completely defile the Space-Time-Continuum line I wouldn't be surprised if B4 turned up in the new ST movie series from the future.......considering the new reboot also dealt with the S-T-C theory.

    ST universes' solution to all ailing series: Space-Time-Continuum!

    Unfortunately when that enters the plot line the series is doomed! Enterprise anyone?
     
  25. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    Yeah but it's the future. They don't care about baldness, so what's a a 20 year age difference?
     
  26. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I think his point was she would not have known him while he was at the Academy, as is suggested when Picard shows her a picture of his cadet self and says "remember him?"
     
  27. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    Yeah, but I wanted to play with the romantic angle for my own amusement. Though the asspull answer might just be he's referring to a younger Picard from a time when they did know each other. Some of the continuity hiccups are easier to explain than others :D
     
  28. Monster Dave

    Monster Dave Sr Member

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    If you've ever seen any of the cast interviews, they all are of the same mindset that Nemesis was their last film. With the new Trek growing into a sequel as we speak, there will more than likely not be a return of old Trek with new Trek in the main stream.

    I thought Nemesis could have been much better than it was. I was not impressed with the loss of data and the B4 character. There was talk of killing Picard rather than Data but opinions were greatly against that.

    Believe me, I wish that TNG had a chance to go out on the right foot, but I doubt it'll happen now.

    Honestly, First Contact was the last really GREAT TNG film (IMO). I would have loved Generations if they hadn't destroyed the D. That really made me sad - I loved that ship as much as I loved the refit-A.
     
  29. SmilingOtter

    SmilingOtter Master Member

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    First Contact was really good. Nemesis was awful, Generations ok, and Insurrection almost completely forgettable.
     
  30. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    I agree. I actually enjoyed the prequel comic more than Trek 09. I was happy to see Data again as well, and wish that they would have used some of the backstory in the film. Sigh.

    A friend of mine supposedly ran into Frakes at a pub in Ireland or England. Anyway, from what I remember of the story, Frakes said no one was happy with the way it ended, and he had been trying to, and at least at the point said friend talked to him, in getting everyone together for one more movie or get a new series going.

    Sadly, neither happened.
     
  31. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    So do I.

    It's ™, it's ©, it's Paramount owned, it's acknowledged by Bob and Alex, it's a story that writers get paid to write, it's as fictitious as the other material, it uses the actors likeness which also costs money, we pay money for it and the money supports more official Star Trek material. To say material isn't canon simply by stating that the material doesn't match something else is the most disingenuous and harmful thing that can happen to a story. Not only were these canon decision done solely based on opinions by one man who abandoned his own show third season, but it also sends a bad message when the studios tell their loyal customers that what they're buying doesn't count but will still take their money.

    Oh, did I mention that Uhura and Sulu's first names came from novels, and Kirk's middle name was revealed in the animated series for the first time? All of which are considered non-canon, but all of them are honored. Even the Narada having Borg technology is on the BluRay.

    Pspsps. "Non-canon" argument garbage.
     
  32. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    It also shows they're not willing to stand by their own products.
     
  33. eclipse74569

    eclipse74569 Active Member

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    I actually don't remember him saying that picture was taken during the academy...and FFS, when did they state that that was an academy uniform to begin with. I mean it might be accepted by us as that, but never once have I seen it stated that it was an academy uniform.

    I mean, you can see officers wear those uniforms all the way through TUC. Who's to say that wasn't a Lt. Jean-Luc Picard still cocky as ever as Beverly described him.

    IIRC, the only time Picard referred to his academy days was right before he sent the Enterprise on a collision course with the Scimitar.
     
  34. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Either way, he wasn't bald at that age. Heck, he wasn't really bald even during his Captain days. He has that ring of hair around his head. Shinzon doesn't have that, and neither does that stupid picture of him.
     
  35. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    Excepting of course that Kirk's first middle name was something with an R.

    Go re-watch Where No MAN Has Gone Before.

    So where is Canon now?

    Expecting EVERYTHING to follow canon in something as large as Star Trek is a fools errand.
     
  36. eclipse74569

    eclipse74569 Active Member

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    I think someone even mentioned that he may have had a full head of hair when he graduated the academy, and may have at one point shaved his entire head...the thing is...no one knows for sure, as the time it took Picard to make it from the academy to Captain of the Enterprise would probably have been 25+ years, there's no real backstory to it.

    Anyways back to the subject at hand...am I the only person who actually LIKED Nemesis???
     
  37. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    There was an episode of TNG that had a flashback scene (I believe it may have been more of a dream/nightmare sequence) in which Beverly and a young(er) Picard are walking down a hallway together. This may have had something to do with Picard telling Beverly that her husband Jack was dead.

    Anyway the shot had Picard (played by Stewart) with a thinning head of hair (I think in a comb-over hairstyle). My opinion only but Picard doesn't strike me as the type to deliberately shave his head.

    EDIT- found it: It was the episode "Violations" from the 5th season.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This flashback sequence took place in 2354. Picard would have been 49 and Captain of the Stargazer.



    Kevin
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  38. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    Yes, the guy who started a bar fight and laughed when he got stabbed through the heart isn't the type to shave his head. Being both completely bald and having a full head of hair when he was in his 20s, to having thinning hair in the flashback, to the wreath of hair during TNG makes WAY more sense than a 20-something going through a "I bet I look good bald" phase.

    I guess the Romulans don't have razors either since everyone assumes Shinzon is natually bald despite being cloned from a guy who isn't.
     
  39. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    The subject was about Data... and yes you were.

    Whether or not people borrowed things from books or TAS is irrelevant. They are not canon. That's according to the studio, and Roddenberry (not to mention D.C. Fontana) Kirk and McCoy were never attacked by zombies, the X-Men never met both TOS and TNG crews, Kodos and Kirk never fought in battle, the Enterprise has more than three decks (check out some of the comics from the '70's) and the constant contradictions from the novels do not exist within canon.

    As for the uniform, it's not an officers uniform. We never saw officers wear that particular uniform. We saw what his uniform looked like when he graduated (an officers uniform without the collar we'd seen in the TOS movies). The truth is, that Stuart Baird was informed that he should have hair. Baird didn't care. He wanted audiences to immediately know whom they were looking at.
     
  40. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    I liked Nemesis. It wasn't without its flaws, which annoy me, but I still liked it. It wasn't as boring as Insurrection at least.

    Also, for the record:
    2305: Born - Presumably little to no hair
    2317: Age 12 - Full head of brown hair (per "Rascals" de-aged appearance)
    2323: Age 18 - Bald (per "Nemesis" photo)*
    2327: Age 22 - Full head of brown hair (per "Samaritan Snare" flashback)
    2354: Age 49 - Thinning brown hair (per "Violations)
    2364: Age 59 - Wreath of white hair (per "Encounter at Farpoint)
    2379: Age 74 - Wreath of white hair (per "Nemesis")

    So yes, in six years he went completely bald, then had some sort of future Rogain treatment to get his full head of hair back, then over a period of about 37 years went bald at a much slower rate which plateaued for at least 15 years.

    Or you know, there are razors in the future.

    *assumes that photo is of Academy era Picard based on Uniform and lack of visible rank insigina
     
  41. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    You're not the only person that liked Nemesis. And there's nothing wrong with you for liking it.

    Don't take the exhaustive reductions of those here as any kind of conclusive ruling. They often can't see past their own straw-grasping obsession with illusive "continuity" and realize how inconsiderate their comments can be read.

    Man, for extolling the virtues of "Trek" and how much certain installments don't inhabit them, a lot of you guys don't seem to show any of that signature optimism in the way you treat the people that have an opinion that differs from yours.

    "Jeyl: Ensuring Trek threads die an embarrassing, hypocritical death since 2009."
     
  42. nickytea

    nickytea Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    QFT.
    Each story stands on its own. Any branch between them is a gift to be celebrated. Any branch that doesn't quite reach needn't be a reason to cut down the tree and deem it ineffective or "non-canon."
     
  43. DarkKnight

    DarkKnight Sr Member

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    I liked Nemesis, but did not like the way data "died" and "lived" in B4, his "death" showed that even though he was a machine he learned to be human and his sacrifice shows this I wish they had some way for him to return better than they had, a floating in space Data head or something at the end
     
  44. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Who's to say what that R really meant? It could have been an insult to Kirk that only Mitchell knew.

    And really, mistakes happen. Sometimes more glaring in the series itself than in any novel, comic or game. After all, we got Spock smiling in The Cage, we have the Enterprise crew forgetting that the Romulans have cloaking devices, we have Picard welcoming Wesley onto the bridge promising more opportunities in the future, than stating that he's been completely banned from the bridge the next time we see him, we have the Borg state that they will assimilate all forms of life to bring them closer to perfection, but refuse to assimilate certain species because they won't bring them perfection....? We have a research station that genetically modifies people on the whim when it's completely illegal in every other episode, we have Troi saying she's never kissed Riker with a beard when in fact they have, we have Data breathing in the series (Stated by Bashir and confirmed by Data) but he doesn't breath in the movies, Data is almost immobilized when Troi accidentally hits him with an arrow, but Data is functioning perfectly after being shot with a machine gun to both his back and his chest, we have Data's emotion chip not only changing size, shape and color, but also it's function from being fused into his neural net and cannot be removed, being able to be shut down in the next movie to not even having it brought up in the last, we have Worf accepting the title of Ambassador only to return to the Enterprise in Nemesis with no explanation, we have Picard with a fill set of hair when he was young, but now he was completely bald in Nemesis, Klingon blood is red in the series, but pink in the undiscovered country.

    All of this and many, many more are considered canon, yet a comic book that explains Nero's motivation and why his ship is so freaking un-Star Trek is not. Sounds stupid if you ask me.
     
  45. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    I'm confused-

    Is "canon" the same thing as "continuity"?


    Kevin
     
  46. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That was Trek dumbed down for the trailer courts.

    I never cringed so much or felt sorry for the actors :unsure

     
  47. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Shame on you! ;)

    If the Great bird of the galaxy was still alive he would leave you a nice present as he flew by over head! :lol


     
  48. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Knowing Frakes, like I do, he would be doing Trek in his 80's wheeled about in a wheelchair pushed by a cranky Worf! :lol

     
  49. DuneMuadDib

    DuneMuadDib Sr Member

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    Canon is what "officially" happened, continuity is consistency of characteristics of the story and details observed by the viewer.
     
  50. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    I don't think even Gene knows what he was doing when he instigated this whole canon rule. He wrote an episode in the original series that openly states how women cannot become Captains of a Starship. That was finally overturned when Gene left the producer's chair, and finally Leonard Nimoy and Harve Bennett introduced us to the first female captain in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

    That's not to say that all of Gene's canon ideas were terrible. For instance, he didn't consider Star Trek V canon, and for very good reasons. In fact, he had a pretty solid idea for the Enterprise A coming into being. Since Star Trek III considered the refit Constitution Class as not up to spec with every other Federation starship, why would the Federation build a new one, and so quickly after the whale probe encounter? He argued that the Enterprise A was in fact the York Town, a Constitution class vessel that was disabled by the Probe. Rather than give Kirk the brand new Excelsior after disobeying orders, they decided to re-christian the York Town as the Enterprise A. I for one am happy with this canon decision since not only does Star Trek VI carry on the story of the genesis trilogy, but also removes a lot of glaring, self-indulging inconsistencies that Shatner brought to the table.

    And V isn't the only instance where the powers at Star Trek decided to cut finished products out of canon. Voyager's Threshold was a painful example. Not only does that episode not get mentioned, the show even has Paris stating he's never done Transwarp before. Here's an example at how scientifically aware the writers were on this episode. If you add 1 to any number, it will come out as 0. That's how bad the science is.
     

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