Star Trek Into Darkness (Post-release)

[DuneMuadDib]

Just make him a Section 31 guy who went rogue, cut out all the "hey, remember the other second ST film" nods, and it's a lot better.

All the months leading up to the film when everyone was convinced he was really Khan I was hoping they were wrong, and that the production would have the backbone to do something else. I don't know why I had that much faith in JJ and the writers.

 

[Apollo]

It was also used at some cons to "beam" in the guests.

I even got a chance at having my molecules scrambled! :lol

We've used the Pepper's Ghost technique in Star Trek products 20 years ago. It was called the Playmates Transporter Set!

 

[Solo4114]

Just make him a Section 31 guy who went rogue, cut out all the "hey, remember the other second ST film" nods, and it's a lot better.

All the months leading up to the film when everyone was convinced he was really Khan I was hoping they were wrong, and that the production would have the backbone to do something else. I don't know why I had that much faith in JJ and the writers.

In fairness, I don't really think that having the guy be named "Khan" was such a problem. I just think it was kinda cowardly. Like, they didn't have enough faith in their material to think it could stand on its own. I actually really liked the Starfleet intrigue aspect of the story. I kinda wish we could've seen more of that. The Khan-as-Khan stuff largely felt like I'd seen it already and after the initial "Oh, ok. So that's how they're referencing the old film" curiosiy, it just doesn't impress me.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

I think Khan worked in WoK also because even for those unfamiliar with "Space Seed" there was obviously a history between the two, and it was deeply personal. That was completely missing in ID. Kirk was just a guy in Khan's way. Not having a deeply personal beef with the antagonist isn't necessarily a failing, but it's a pretty big part of WoK imo.

They used the "Space Seed" version of Khan in a WoK remake, and it's the wrong version of the character for that story.

 

[Bryancd]

They used the "Space Seed" version of Khan in a WoK remake, and it's the wrong version of the character for that story.

To be fair, Into Darkness was categorically NOT a WOK remake. It shares nothing with TWOK besides two character names and a death scene. That's it. None of TWOK plot, Genesis device, or themes, getting older, are part of ID.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

I'm exaggerating for effect.

 

[Bryancd]

I'm exaggerating for effect.

Well played.

 

[greatwazoo42]

I'm exaggerating for effect.

I initially misread that as "I'm exaggerated for effect" which brings to mind quite a few funny images.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

Sounds like Shatner's acting style.

 

[Bryancd]

Watching it today, I was struck by how what Kirk did on Nimbus was exactly what TOS Kirk did time and time again and we never saw the consequences of his actions. It was interesting to see what would happen if Starfleet called Kirk to the mat for his flaunting of the rules. Nice touch.

 

[Jeyl]

Watching it today, I was struck by how what Kirk did on Nimbus was exactly what TOS Kirk did time and time again and we never saw the consequences of his actions.

Ok. Name one episode from the original series where Kirk and crew simply run away from a planet's natives without ever talking to them.

 

[Bryancd]

Ok. Name one episode from the original series where Kirk and crew simply run away from a planet's natives without ever talking to them.

Not sure how that is germane to my point. Patting the locals on the head and taking off after altering their society hardly changes the fact that it was done in violation of the Prime Directive. This was done a number of times in TOS and we never saw any consequences for Kirk's command. So as usual, you miss the point. Happens a lot to you, what 's that like?

 

[Jeyl]

So as usual, you miss the point.

Well, I was hoping that in your search for an example that you would find out that the original Kirk had a good reason for violating the Prime Directive when he did, where as there is no reason given in STID. Why prevent a Volcano from destroying a primitive culture? Isn't an active Volcano a natural occurrence? Maybe if the crew accidentally caused the Volcano to become this way, the reason behind stopping it would make far better sense. Otherwise we're left with a Spock who is willingly risking his life to violate the Prime Directive while at the same time is willing sacrificing himself not to violate the Prime Directive.

 

[Bryancd]

I was sharing an opinion, I wasn't looking to debate the veracity of what I perceived watching the movie, especially with the likes if you, for whom I don't hold in high regard.

I would, however make a distinction between saving them from extinction without their knowledge vs. providing them technology or knowledge if other imhabitants in the galaxy as different considerations.

 

[Jeyl]

I was sharing an opinion, I wasn't looking to debate the veracity of what I perceived watching the movie

Well forgive me for implying that there was more going on in each of the original Star Trek stories that featured Kirk violating the Prime Directive than simply grabbing random scrolls and running away from violent natives. I'm still waiting for someone who's only watched JJ Abrams' Star Trek movies to wonder why the original series Klingons don't act like the Orcs of Mordor.

 

[Bryancd]

I'm still waiting for someone who's only watched JJ Abrams' Star Trek movies to wonder why the original series Klingons don't act like the Orcs of Mordor.

OK, you got me there...

 

[Riceball]

The fact of the matter we never got any info on why Kirk felt so strongly about saving the people of Nimbus, nor is it really that important since it was meant to set things up for Kirk getting in trouble & losing his command. The problems with many, not all but many, of your complaints & comparisons between JJ Trek & TOS is that TOS had what, 3 -4 seasons hour long episodes to build the characters that we all know and love, where as JJ has had all of two movies or roughly 4 hours. There's only so much character development and exposition that you can in a 2 hour movie, or even 2 two hour movies, stuff that a TV show gives you the luxury of doing, esp. when the movie is done as an action movie. Granted that JJ & co. didn't seem to really move things very far forward from where they were in the first movie there's only so much character development and exploration that you can put into a two hour action movie without slowing the pace down to snail's crawl and end up putting a good deal of the audience to sleep.

As for the scroll bit, Kir, didn't grab it for no reason, he grabbed it to get the people out and away from the temple. The scroll wasn't his goal, it was simply a means to an end, something that you consistently overlook and/or nitpick about.

 

[Solo4114]

The fact of the matter we never got any info on why Kirk felt so strongly about saving the people of Nimbus, nor is it really that important since it was meant to set things up for Kirk getting in trouble & losing his command. The problems with many, not all but many, of your complaints & comparisons between JJ Trek & TOS is that TOS had what, 3 -4 seasons hour long episodes to build the characters that we all know and love, where as JJ has had all of two movies or roughly 4 hours. There's only so much character development and exposition that you can in a 2 hour movie, or even 2 two hour movies, stuff that a TV show gives you the luxury of doing, esp. when the movie is done as an action movie. Granted that JJ & co. didn't seem to really move things very far forward from where they were in the first movie there's only so much character development and exploration that you can put into a two hour action movie without slowing the pace down to snail's crawl and end up putting a good deal of the audience to sleep.

This is actually why I've come to far prefer the longer-form episodic approach that television offers. I find that a good 10-13 hour season is enough to give me a real sense of depth, but still leave me wanting more. It gives you time to do both action and character development, without everything feeling rushed or artificially compressed somehow.

At any rate, I do agree that it was nice to see Kirk face the music for his flouting of the Prime Directive, which I don't really recall offhand having been dealt with in any of the series in the past. Usually the Prime Directive was used as a way to create dramatic tension and force the audience to think about "What would you choose? Save the poor illiterate dirt worshipers and risk them developing too fast and nuking themselves...or stand back and let them die of [insert catastrophe here]?" But the Starfleet fallout was never addressed. Like, if any of the captains stepped in to save the day, you never saw them get a chewing out by Admiral Fancybritches over having violated the Prime Directive.

 

[Apollo]

Yeah the TOS Kirk did all sorts of things that Violated the Prime Directive.

I loved that bit in DS-9 when the temporal police got wind of Sisko meeting Kirk.

:lol "The Man was a menace!" :lol

Watching it today, I was struck by how what Kirk did on Nimbus was exactly what TOS Kirk did time and time again and we never saw the consequences of his actions. It was interesting to see what would happen if Starfleet called Kirk to the mat for his flaunting of the rules. Nice touch.

 

[jlee562]

So, I started listening to the aforementioned Mission Log podcast interview with Bob Orci.

I think some folks here might be interested in what Orci has to say. It's actually a really long interview and I've not even gotten halfway through it, but there's already been some tidbits that I thought were interesting.
1) Khan was not inserted as "fan service," as speculated above. Orci's goal was that STID work as a standalone film, and that Khan was inserted in spite of what they knew was going to be controversy from the fans. He sees Khan as Joker to Kirk's Batman.
2) The first part of the film addressing Kirk's demotion was done in response to criticism of the first film, that he was promoted to Captain too fast.
3) Scotty was given more meat to chew on, so to speak, including the angle about his resigning over the "military" mission the Enterprise was undertaking
4) The plot was indeed conceived as a "message" movie about justice, the use of preemptive force, and the inherent contradictions in being a "peacekeeping armada." Orci feels strongly that this is in line with the ideals of Trek (I happen to agree with him).
5) Orci hopes that ST09 and STID have given them enough 'weight' to bring in a more Sci-Fi angle on the next film.

They also talk about developing ST09...as I said I'm not even halfway through, so I'm sure they go into lots more. Thus far though, if you have the time, I think it's a worthwhile interview that will give some more insight into the making of the film.