JediMichael
Master Member
Never heard of it.....well, guess now I have, but no idea what IT is.....
HBO's House of the Dragon
- Thread starter Axlotl
- Start date
Paul Andrew
Master Member
Nope. I don't know that I even care if the books get finished at this point.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Sorry about that.
Yeah, there isnt much advertising for this show but thats highly likely due to the reception of the original show.
For what it's worth, I initially dismissed the prospects of another series after GOT went off the rails, but I've gradually grown cautiously enthusiastic from hearing showrunner Ryan Condal talk about the project on his prop collecting podcast "The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of." He sounds genuinely passionate and knowledgeable, and just in general comes across as very down-to-earth, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at least at the outset that he may manage to right the ship. And if nothing else... the props/costumes look gorgeous.
Solo4114
Master Member
On the subject of the books' end, I'm at the point where I mostly don't care about the books. I really enjoyed them initially, but I think that Martin has run out of gas with them. The 6th book -- of 7 -- has been languishing for 11 years now. I think either he doesn't care to finish them at this point, he can't muster the enthusiasm to do so even if he kinda wants to in theory, or he's just endlessly tinkering with them and lost in the weeds while the world has moved on.
That said, on the subject of what the ending would have been in the books, I think it's very, very likely that the ending is "the same" in a sense, in that we'd end up at the same general endpoint for the characters. What might be different is how we get there, but I think what Martin did was give the showrunners the bullet points of his story, and they then fleshed them out in their crappy, half-assed way. But the bullet points are mostly the same, at least in terms of the big, high level stuff. Like, Jamie and Cersei die in each other's arms, with Jamie as a changed and better man but still in love with his evil sister. Dani would go mad and "be a dragon" for real, embracing her true nature, and just burn stuff to the ground. Jon would reject being king even if his bloodline opens that path because at the end of the day, he's never really wanted command.
Martin's said that the most interesting story is the story of the human heart in conflict with itself, and basically people struggling to either defy or act in accordance with their true nature. Both Jon and Dany struggle (Dany tries to be the peaceful ruler and liberator good guy, but is ill equipped to rule Fantasy Iraq, and better served by both ruling her homeland and ruling through the judicious use of "I WILL MELT YOUR CASTLE'S WALLS WITH DRAGON FIRE." Jon keeps getting thrust into command when he doesn't really want it or believe he's cut out for it.) I think Bran would end up ruling as his weird "I'm the author! Authors rule! Yaaaay!" thing. Sansa would learn to play the game instead of being a naive girl. Arya would be a ruthless killer, but free to choose her path. And the little one would get killed or something because he was never really much of a character anwyay.
The main differences would be in how we get there and how Martin earns those endings. I do think that Martin is more capable of selling those end results than the showrunners were. And I think how he'd get there would be much more circuitous and ultimately satisfying approach than the kind of "Uhhh...then bim bam boom they're on the other side of the continent, and then Gendry runs all the way back to Castle Black in 20 minutes and the gang get saved or something." Like, there was a LOT of sloppy timeline management in the show, and they just waved it away with "Whatever. Rule of cool. Stuff moves at the speed of plot."
As for this show, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I don't really care. The ending of the show really burned me on this, and Martin's subsequent silence and failure to produce anything new in over a decade leaves me in just a "Whatever" state towards this franchise. If he ever writes books 6 and 7, I'll read them after I read a bunch of reviews. But I also think at this point...it's done. It's never happening. BUT, I think that the one and only benefit of this show is that technically the "end" of the show is already written in large part. Martin did put out a book while the show was still airing that's essentially a maester's history of the Iron Throne, and it touches on the Dance of Dragons that this show will cover. So, we know (or can find out) how the story supposedly ends. The only things we won't know are the side stories and plot threads the show will introduce.
I mean, if you care at all.
Liberance
Well-Known Member
I loved Game of Thrones and I like the ending of the show. Yep, I do. At a time when most studio productions don't even bother to do the bare minimum to tell a cohesive story, I always found it a bit depressing that audiences would spend so much energy lambasting a show that was stellar for most of its run, and later arrived to an ending that, while flawed, still hit all the key notes it needed to hit. And frankly, I think Season 8 has episodes that rank pretty high up in the series overall, but are always overlooked because of the backlash. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is a beautiful bottle episode that wraps up Jaime and Brienne's arcs quite nicely. The Long Night is a cinematic spectacle that puts to shame a lot of modern big studio movies. The Bells, for all its narrative shortcomings when it comes to Dany's turn, also features a fair share of brilliant bits—and Emilia Clarke's performance during the key beat prior to the attack on King's Landing, aided by Djawadi's somber score, pretty much sells the moment emotionally, which is no small feat considering the lack of better development.
I wouldn't be surprised if Thrones gets a positive reassessment in the future. I mean, if stuff like Lost and the Star Wars prequels—rightfully—got it, I don't see how a TV show that's significantly better crafted than both of those things combined wouldn't.
And yet, that said, I'm not too interested in House of the Dragon either. Game of Thrones could've ended perfectly, and Martin could've finished the books, and I still wouldn't find much of a reason to go back to that world. There haven't been many times that the prequel/spin-off thing has been pulled off successfully—Fargo was one, Better Call Saul might be the best example—so I'm always skeptical. Focusing on the ancient Targaryens also seems like such an obvious, potentially superficial choice (still better than the White Walkers though!), with not enough dramatic ties to the original story to justify the jump. I don't know, we'll see. Hey, at least it does have finished material to go from, unlike the last two seasons of Game of Thrones and that Lord of the Rings show. That's something.
I wouldn't be surprised if Thrones gets a positive reassessment in the future. I mean, if stuff like Lost and the Star Wars prequels—rightfully—got it, I don't see how a TV show that's significantly better crafted than both of those things combined wouldn't.
And yet, that said, I'm not too interested in House of the Dragon either. Game of Thrones could've ended perfectly, and Martin could've finished the books, and I still wouldn't find much of a reason to go back to that world. There haven't been many times that the prequel/spin-off thing has been pulled off successfully—Fargo was one, Better Call Saul might be the best example—so I'm always skeptical. Focusing on the ancient Targaryens also seems like such an obvious, potentially superficial choice (still better than the White Walkers though!), with not enough dramatic ties to the original story to justify the jump. I don't know, we'll see. Hey, at least it does have finished material to go from, unlike the last two seasons of Game of Thrones and that Lord of the Rings show. That's something.
jkno
Legendary Member
Don't get me wrong, season 8 had its moments, some were really great. But some were dumber than the characters in Dumb and Dumber. IIRC all this was because the series creators, David Benioff and D. B. Weiss, thought they will participate in a Star Wars project, so they rushed up the last season for that possible project. And it backfired, by making a not so good, to put it mildly, final season.
Mottrex
Sr Member
Well didn't he tell HBO the bare bones anyway so unless as the rumours say Jon Snow is getting a spin off..
It's like Lost.. Burn me once.
That still stings.
Prequels are a funny old thing, it's like being down the pub and hearing the whispers..
"They All die in the end"
Richard Baker
Sr Member
My wife and I liked the Game of Thrones except for the last season. While the series had an epic pacing with complex structures, the ending was simply rushed and slapped together.
House of the Dragon could be good but we are not all fired up to see it. Our local library stocked GoT seasons which is how we started watching that, will probably wait and check out the new series the same way...
House of the Dragon could be good but we are not all fired up to see it. Our local library stocked GoT seasons which is how we started watching that, will probably wait and check out the new series the same way...
ScourgiousJinx
Master Member
I'm always for libraries, they really need as much use as they can get and a lot of them have surprisingly incredible selections. Great for watching/reading SW content without supporting the mouse. I have HBO for other things but if I didn't I would definitely do the same with GOT.
Riceball
Master Member
That's been the annoying thing about Martin, ever since book 5 came out, it seems that he's done little to do with book 6, don't mention book 7. And once the show came out, he's done even less, instead writing side stories, prequels, histories, and atlases, basically everything you ever wanted to know about Westeros except for what's going on in the main book line. With all of the time that he's spent working on everything but book 6, he probably could have long since finished book 6 already and would be well along on the final book.
Solo4114
Master Member
Right, and to be clear, I don't begrudge Martin just being done. I mean, it's annoying to have invested on what prove to be false pretenses, but, like, he could've absolutely intended to do it all in the span of 7 years and then been hit by a bus, you know? The universe doesn't owe me a conclusion.
What I do wish he'd do, however, is issue a statement about whether he's ever gonna do a goddamn thing about these books or if he is, indeed, truly just....done. The fire's gone out, the thrill is gone, the well's run dry, etc. If he just doesn't have the creative impulse to do this story any further, that's fine, just bloody say so! Instead, he keeps the fans waiting in limbo and I think, in large part, it has pissed off enough people that most have just walked way altogether and at least some of them won't come back if and when he ever publishes book 6 (and 7?).
I wouldn't say that I feel entitled to that statement, even. I mean, I'm not. It's his stories, and he can tell 'em or not. That's on him. He doesn't owe me a "by the way..." update. And at the end of the day, the books will be published or not, and I'll read them or I won't. It's not really an interaction between me and the author as much as it is like two parallel streets that may intersect from time to time.
He posts on his blog frequently about progress on Winds of Winter.
Riceball
Master Member
That wasn't Solo4114's point. His point was more about Martin actually letting us know his true intentions as to whether or not he really intends to finish A Song of Ice and Fire or not. If not, then say so and let us all move on. If he does seriously intend on finishing the series, then he should stop procrastinating & spending time writing prequels, side stories, histories, and atlases and work on finishing book 6 and start on book 7.
I finally watched GOT last year and really enjoyed it, even the last season. So I of course had to go out and get the books and read them. You would not believe how I felt, well maybe you do, when I got to the end of book 5 and found out he had not done the next 2 books. As others have said, I'm not sure if I would bother reading them now. I would also have to wonder if he ever does do them would he be influenced by the last couple of seasons of the show and basically just write what we saw.
Telling people, "hey I've been doing more work on Winds of Winter. I just finished a Tyrion chapter." doesn't communicate his intentions?
Appreciated the critiques of tcsmit29 and Axlotl that recognized “richness” of Martin’s GOT writing and story telling ability that enabled excellent actors to deliver the performance. It is indeed a shame, as pointed out, that he did not finish his books. House of Dragon only describes the “family tree” history, so it will be interesting to see if the producers, or even if good actors, can deliver without Martin‘s details.
While a Hollywood happy ending was not fitting, I too hated the unsupported ending mentioned by others. That said, when I look at what a moments rage using a Dragon did to Kings Landing, there is a modern parallel there to the intentional fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
While a Hollywood happy ending was not fitting, I too hated the unsupported ending mentioned by others. That said, when I look at what a moments rage using a Dragon did to Kings Landing, there is a modern parallel there to the intentional fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.
Riceball
Master Member
That's the thing, he's been posting updates like this for the past decade and he still doesn't seem to be any closer to finishing the bloody. This is why Solo is calling for a post regarding his intentions. This glacial pace combined with everything else that he's been doing since the release of book 5, it doesn't seem like he's serious about finishing book 6, much less working on boo 7 and finally finishing the series.
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