Skeleton Crew Jod Buckle

[smithjohnj]

Is making a support block worth it? First you need to make it. I spent about 7 minutes in 123Design making my “winged” version. To make the simple block I talk about below it was simpler and only took about four minutes to model and slice.

I just did a quick slice of the presented .stl of the buckle using Prusa Slic3r since I have Prusa printers. I set the paraments for 100% infill and auto generated supports and all other paraments left at their default settings. The entire project with supports is reported to require; 5 hours 4 minutes of print time. 15.2 m of 1.75mm filament (45.33 g). The resources required to print the supports are; 1 hour 19 minutes, 3.92 m of 1.75 filament (11.69 g). So roughly 25% of the resources go to just producing the supports.

I also sliced a simple block 100 mm x 75 mm x 6 mm which is approximately the support block requirements. There are no supports and I set the parameters at 15% infill and all other default parameters. This project requires 1 hour 58 minutes, 9.28 m of 1.75 mm filament (24.72 g). This is more time and material than is used for supports in a single buckle print. (Parameters could be tuned to reduce time and material by reducing the number of top and bottom layers, wall thickness. etc. but all that just put my costs somewhere else other than the print. If I was doing this for production it might be worth the effort.

So if you are only going to print one buckle, making a support block is more expensive in time, material and effort. However after the initial investment of making the block, each additional buckle will save about 25% of the time and materials than if you printed each additional buckle with supports and without a support block.

Since there is a pause in the middle of the print and there are some manual efforts required, this approach trades human time for filament. Also if the printer is sitting idle because the operator was not ready for block insertion, the total project time increases. If machine idle time needs to be taken into account then a whole new business analysis would be necessary - but I don't do that anymore. Obviously this is a quick and dirty
analysis.

EDIT: I changed a few of parameters I mentioned above and reduced the support block print time to 65 minutes and some reduction in material. However I do not know if this block would provide the same confidence level I would have in the original beefier block.

 

[greenmachines]

Is making a support block worth it? First you need to make it. I spent about 7 minutes in 123Design making my “winged” version. To make the simple block I talk about below it was simpler and only took about four minutes to model and slice.

I just did a quick slice of the presented .stl of the buckle using Prusa Slic3r since I have Prusa printers. I set the paraments for 100% infill and auto generated supports and all other paraments left at their default settings. The entire project with supports is reported to require; 5 hours 4 minutes of print time. 15.2 m of 1.75mm filament (45.33 g). The resources required to print the supports are; 1 hour 19 minutes, 3.92 m of 1.75 filament (11.69 g). So roughly 25% of the resources go to just producing the supports.

I also sliced a simple block 100 mm x 75 mm x 6 mm which is approximately the support block requirements. There are no supports and I set the parameters at 15% infill and all other default parameters. This project requires 1 hour 58 minutes, 9.28 m of 1.75 mm filament (24.72 g). This is more time and material than is used for supports in a single buckle print. (Parameters could be tuned to reduce time and material by reducing the number of top and bottom layers, wall thickness. etc. but all that just put my costs somewhere else other than the print. If I was doing this for production it might be worth the effort.

So if you are only going to print one buckle, making a support block is more expensive in time, material and effort. However after the initial investment of making the block, each additional buckle will save about 25% of the time and materials than if you printed each additional buckle with supports and without a support block.

Since there is a pause in the middle of the print and there are some manual efforts required, this approach trades human time for filament. Also if the printer is sitting idle because the operator was not ready for block insertion, the total project time increases. If machine idle time needs to be taken into account then a whole new business analysis would be necessary - but I don't do that anymore. Obviously this is a quick and dirty analysis.

For a one off this would definitely be a "let it run" but I think making a three part would be a nice option for a single file no brainer that can then be pinned and glued after. Was certainly worth thinking it through.

I need to mod the corners for more strength currently so will be another iteration at least.

What do you think about making the 4 edges point down some more, so that they are not as aligned with the back of the buckle but rather are a bit more curved? Something like this:

Top: One of the edges is pointing downwards in a quick & rough edit.
Bottom: original position
View attachment 1899480

I was waiting for confirmation on this one as I had started a new build in another program, yesterday, that had a better pipe feature but had some issues with relearning all the commands again in such a short time period. I saw your post with the solo belt and immediately noticed it is sitting too high at the corners only to the scroll down to seeing you noticed it as well. It seems the art nouveau styling that joberg had pointed out shows strongly in this graceful looping around the belt. It reminds me of the mobius "block" version of the famous structual "impossibility". Which, of course, I had to make by hand after a challenge from my sculpting teacher in junior high. Three edges that wrap to give the impression of four.

For purposes of conversation, I am calling the buckle by its postion when Jod is standing. The "upper" being towards Jods head. The lower, towards his feet. The face, what is seen while it is worn and the back what is facing toward Jod.

(update after the below was written)

The upper loops seem to have 3 sides as they connect to the central mass. The bottom two loops seem to expose three faces as well, not perfectly flat but distinctly separated by an edge angle of more than 90 between each face. The back one is easy to read its path with the back face turning to face into the center across jod's waist in the direction the belt runs, the upper face becoming the face that holds contact with the belt (wrapping around the belt edge) and continuing after its corner facing away from the body ( if there were no belt in it, I would expect to see the flat face of what had been the upper face.) The lower face of the lower loops would then be facing partly toward jod but at an angle pointing to the hip bone edge.

The upper loop had been changed from 3 to 4 because I was hoping to find a way to make it completely flat.

The down side to making it correctly is that it will no longer have the option of printing the back bars separately. So maybe keeping the file with this bar but making the end swoop down to a near disappearing edge for this version and then a true screen orobable version where it just rolls gracefully around and underneath.

 

[greenmachines]

This picture:

I see the 3 obvious faces where the loops attach, one up vertical, one down vertical and one facing the body.

WHAT IF..... the back face dissolves into 2???

So, an eliptoid tube for most of the path from say here to here:

Or is it three faces where the back stays the back even when under the belt

My pudding brain is really wanting this to turn into a band like this:

 

[greenmachines]

I got sidetracked with attempting a full sculpt of those side bars and it turned into another round of learning the software. I am going to take a step back and just update those top loops like Modery mentioned. Sorry for the stall, I was hoping to try one with a full one piece transition from top to bottom.

My concern was the depth that we assumed was needed has been tested (by Modery ) and when fit on the belt DOES NOT look to create the bulge that jod's belt does when going over those backside loops. Definitely correct me if I am wrong but with even this small backstep that we have, the belt smoothly glides right through this buckle. Jod's does NOT. There is a significant bulge showing his belt going over the bulge and then behind the face of the buckle.

 

[Modery]

Was just looking at it here again. Defintely going straight done, and yes, there is a bulge

 

[greenmachines]

After much self teaching on several new software packages, I could not overcome the issue with digital sculpting in thin zones. Thinning and smoothing, as well as adding bulk, turned into a wreckless newb in a china shop. I finally had to throw in the towel and go back to real world clay.

After our discussion above, it does show the belt is being pushed ABOVE the plane of the buckle's flat back and it gave me some indication that, although curved, the back (including all final loop ends) may be on the same plane, or very close. Meaning, we may pull this off with very little support material during printing.

As a resin cast or even a 3d print, the resulting buckle can be curved afterward with heat.

I admit that I am being overly hopeful that a flatback version can be created but I also see the weakness in going so thin at the edges. I will be perfectly happy with a combination/compromise if we can get the differences (to onscreen) to hide in the back and not show during posing.

Here is the last clay version prior to rescan:

Modery is doing further tweaking as this newest scan takes us backwards a few steps in cleanup, reintroducing a lot of the stuff already cleaned before. The main point of contention is going to be keeping (or even achieving) the on screen front view match, while giving these loops some strength. While needing to bulge the actual belt forward, we are imposing strain on the end loops that is not there with the step back design. We may find this is possible in metal but not in print. I have been thinking on possible ways to strengthen prints.

Is it possible to embed a wireframe with heated backer rod (wire heated by soldering iron)? or to leave a groove in the back of the print in order to insert same?

Have any of our modelers come across this need to strengthen plastic parts?

 

[smithjohnj]

I have had success in embedding different materials into 3D prints. That includes thin layers of mesh fabric and even nylon and metal "screen door" screen. The key is to adjust the next layer print height and sometimes make that "next layer" thicker than normal to allow it to fill in the gaps. There are a number of people who use this technique for printed 3D wearable fashion. Another approach would be to split the print and create cavities in the bottom section, fill the cavities with whatever re-enforcement of the proper shape, resume printing. Again a common example you can find is when printers embed and hide magnets in their prints.

 

[smithjohnj]

Another possibility is to make the buckle in separate parts and then assemble them together after printing. For example it is very easy to print one part with "holes" of the proper size. After printing use a soldering iron to melt/press a threaded insert into the hole. The outside threads hold the insert in place and the inside threads can accept the hardware to attach the other pieces. The other parts have cavities which can hold washers, machine screws which will screw into the embedded inset. The parts can still have other re-enforcement in addition to the assembly hardware.

EDIT: This approach may leave some holes on the back side where the screws are inserted and tightened. That can also make it possible to disassemble although that would not be a requirement here. If the holes are not acceptable for some reason, 3D plugs can be printed which cover the hardware in the hole and sit just slightly high. Again use a solding iron with a flat tip to smooth the plug and blend it on the surface hiding the "hole".

 

[greenmachines]

Another possibility is to make the buckle in separate parts and then assemble them together after printing. For example it is very easy to print one part with "holes" of the proper size. After printing use a soldering iron to melt/press a threaded insert into the hole. The outside threads hold the insert in place and the inside threads can accept the hardware to attach the other pieces. The other parts have cavities which can hold washers, machine screws which will screw into the embedded inset. The parts can still have other re-enforcement in addition to the assembly hardware.

EDIT: This approach may leave some holes on the back side where the screws are inserted and tightened. That can also make it possible to disassemble although that would not be a requirement here. If the holes are not acceptable for some reason, 3D plugs can be printed which cover the hardware in the hole and sit just slightly high. Again use a solding iron with a flat tip to smooth the plug and blend it on the surface hiding the "hole".

Back facing would be totally acceptable for fastener holes if it made it feasible. I am worried that the print will be fragile at the outer loops but if the print material is flexible and not brittle, it may not be an issue.

 

[octopussoup]

maybe it could be epoxied on top of a brass buckle like this. I never saw this sort of buckle until i read this thread. Star wars buckles have fascinated me ever since I bought tge kenner version if snaggletooth. Buckle found on.l Conway Strap Buckles (Solid Brass)

 

[greenmachines]

View attachment 1900969maybe it could be epoxied on top of a brass buckle like this. I never saw this sort of buckle until i read this thread. Star wars buckles have fascinated me ever since I bought tge kenner version if snaggletooth. Buckle found on.l Conway Strap Buckles (Solid Brass)

This is a great idea, even if I use it on a different project. I love this. Strong, permanent addition to any decorative buckle. This one piece would make many of the pirate accessories possible, like the weight bearing accessories that are belt attached.

The hope is to create a printable set that is versatile enough to cover several variants of skill level in prop making. Modery is working on this as we speak and has come up with a few selections of add on pieces.

These add ons will provide the optional strength where 3d printing is replacing a metal poured buckle BUT I am excited to say the current design Modery is finishing up with provides us all with the ability to create cement pour and sand pour molds (reverse/negative molds). I hope I am not spilling the beans but this newest design....

completely eliminated support material waste used to elevate the piece.

I will double check on the possibility of a back pin version, but truthfully, this buckle you found could be attached to the back and be exceptionally strong.

I am pretty pumped with what is near completion.

 

[greenmachines]

And for anyone that has not seen it, this is the full Jod build thread (currently we have the series thread and the overall prop thread to which this buckle is a child spinoff but I think will also be closely associated to this new Jod full build):

Thread 'Jod Na Nawood | Captain Silvo Costume - Skeleton Crew' Jod Na Nawood | Captain Silvo Costume - Skeleton Crew

The parent threads are listed in this thread at post #1.

 

[greenmachines]

Uploading two files today. Both may yet get updates as Modery is still print testing and adding last look touches.

A big shout out to Jintosh as both of today's files had been over processed and over sculpted to the point that nothing I did would fix them. It is funny that when I was learning the scanning process, jintosh saved us so our file could be used for sculpting. Now that I was finally competent enough to use the software, and of course I mean we, several times handing this off to Modery when I was beyond frustrated, jintosh saved me again. The entire time I spent sculpting the face of these buckles, the software was working in the basement (imagine Isengard orcs) to destroy the underside. The underside that we have all assumed is completely smooth. Well it is again, completely smooth..... thank you.

One is the recessed loops version that we believe is the closest to screen accurate. In several side view photos, it can be seen where the smooth slope stops and it jogs back by about a quarter inch and then goes straight down.

This type of print will require supports so be aware if you are new to printing non flat bottom objects (I am a newb, so trust me on this ). The second one is completely printable as a one pass, one shot, wonder print with no support material necessary (obvious print type exceptions to this). This one was created, on purpose, for cosplay builds where 3d printing is available to you but you aren't specializing in it. This one comes with an upgrade but I will not be uploading the upgrade until later next week after it is tested. This consists of two mirrored backing bars to strengthen the loop ends, designed and being tested by Modery , as he has done a very thorough set of tests on this flat version and it puts a great deal more torque where the belt passes through. The end result being, some materials from 3d printers are not flexible enough to pull this off even if you were just doing a one day costume. These bars are then epoxy glued to the back to form a much stronger loop end. Other methods are possible and we can discuss those as well but this one allows for the same no support printing.

Both of these prints, after cleanup and polishing, would then allow you to recast into your preferred mold method, even lost wax brass for some awesome person who would be my hero for doing so. Aluminum would be stunning as well and closer to his finished buckle with an anodized surface or the right textured paints.

The intended leather belt is the 1.75 inch wide commercial versions but is scalable when in the printing software so can be upsized or downsized to your body proportions (the ultimate goal for a cosplay piece). That part makes me smile. Please see link above (post 72, immediately above) for link to the full Jod build and belt conversation. Also some talk of the belt is in the Skeleton Crew props thread, also above.

My goal of course is print the receded loop version and clean it up enough to do the metal paints and stains as a one print and done version but I am OCD enough to fall into the lost wax brass process or the "king of random"'s aluminum arc forge chamber process once it is in my hands.

 

[Modery]

Looks good!
Did some more smoothing in Blender (subdivision modifier set to 2; increase the file size a lot, though, I've now got a 300MB STL), resized it to 95% (that should be right for the 1.75in belt) and started printing.
Also ordered 2 belts, should get them in around 10 days or sooner.

 

[Modery]

Smaller update to see the current version in action:
As mentioned I printed it at 95%. A 1.75in belt (4.445cm) should fit nicely in there, to be confirmed in the next few days (belts might arrive Monday or Tuesday).

Printed at 0.2mm layer height with 999 walls (so that it's walls only, no infill). Supports at the back and a brim that I forgot to remove.

Support material removed

Used a PU leather (or something like that, some cheap material I had) with a height of around 4.2+cm (think around 1.66in) to do a first verification:

Might have reduced the size slightly still, but waiting for the actual belts to verify.

Also did a small stress-test to see how strong the loops are. While you can definitely break them with force, they were stable enough to not break when I applied a "decent amount of force" - basically what I thought would be the maximum when worn with a belt.

I'll keep this as it is for now until the belts are here for final tests. In the meantime, I'll also print the flat version to see if there's any other feedback for that version

 

[greenmachines]

Smaller update to see the current version in action:
As mentioned I printed it at 95%. A 1.75in belt (4.445cm) should fit nicely in there, to be confirmed in the next few days (belts might arrive Monday or Tuesday).

Printed at 0.2mm layer height with 999 walls (so that it's walls only, no infill). Supports at the back and a brim that I forgot to remove.
View attachment 1903551
Support material removed
View attachment 1903550

Used a PU leather (or something like that, some cheap material I had) with a height of around 4.2+cm (think around 1.66in) to do a first verification:
View attachment 1903549

Might have reduced the size slightly still, but waiting for the actual belts to verify.

Also did a small stress-test to see how strong the loops are. While you can definitely break them with force, they were stable enough to not break when I applied a "decent amount of force" - basically what I thought would be the maximum when worn with a belt.

I'll keep this as it is for now until the belts are here for final tests. In the meantime, I'll also print the flat version to see if there's any other feedback for that version

This is awesome but I noticed immediately, one of the areas that I had previously fixed is back in the mix because of all the backtracking. Bottom loop, left side, with the thick connector and the right side with the one that looks like onscreen. .....smacks head on desk......

 

[greenmachines]

So, I'm claiming sleep deprived. I figured out why they are different. I saw that the upper right arm needed fixed and I fixed it on the recessed version. I saw the bottom left one was way too thick and I fixed it on the side loops, flat version. I will update the second one tomorrow. I have fixed the flat one and miraculously kept a smooth flat back.

 

[joberg]

Smaller update to see the current version in action:
As mentioned I printed it at 95%. A 1.75in belt (4.445cm) should fit nicely in there, to be confirmed in the next few days (belts might arrive Monday or Tuesday).

Printed at 0.2mm layer height with 999 walls (so that it's walls only, no infill). Supports at the back and a brim that I forgot to remove.
View attachment 1903551
Support material removed
View attachment 1903550

Used a PU leather (or something like that, some cheap material I had) with a height of around 4.2+cm (think around 1.66in) to do a first verification:
View attachment 1903549

Might have reduced the size slightly still, but waiting for the actual belts to verify.

Also did a small stress-test to see how strong the loops are. While you can definitely break them with force, they were stable enough to not break when I applied a "decent amount of force" - basically what I thought would be the maximum when worn with a belt.

I'll keep this as it is for now until the belts are here for final tests. In the meantime, I'll also print the flat version to see if there's any other feedback for that version

A beauty for sure I think it would be easy to put that buckle in sand and make an actual one in metal

 

[greenmachines]

And yes, I see another spot, but I am going to leave it because it only affects poured molds and will be fine for 3d.

OK, everyone please see what you can get done with these. Add comments and trials below.

Modery, keep me in the loop on your process, smoothing, fixes, printing issues. I am going to take the world's longest nap but right after a lot of snacks and some "Eureka".

 

[smithjohnj]

From blurs to beauty. I enjoy seeing the final products the member put on this forum. But I have always wished more people would take me through the process so I could "learn" as well as "look". I know there were still a lot of "behind the scenes" activities that went on, but this has been an enjoyable journey thus far. Thank you.