Sidkit and me, racprops

Interestingly most of the shouting comes from the fans and the collectors.

Why? Cause they are afraid to get no longer any stuff to buy/collect
It´s not ethics - it´s that they are freightened to loose the possibility to acquire stuff cause the makers refrain from doing new stuff. Thats all. Plain and simple.

>>>Fallacious argument: You see more collectors complaining then builders because the builder's are outnumbered by the collector's. The fact is that that we always have threads here by the building/selling minority about being recast. Thats like saying China complains more then the US. There are more Chinese by number so the amount of complaints will be higher. Ive been both a buyer and a seller. Ive found selling/creating to be a thankless job and getting recast and ripped off once was enough to make sure I didnt do it again. And its absolutely about not having new items come to market. Thats not a revelation as its been stated over and over. Nothing new comes to market and the hobby dies. BUT to protect that hobby we are willing to pay MORE to the person that originally brought it to market then to get it cheaper from some recaster. As we speak I can think of several items in the hands of individuals here that are highly rare and sought after and that will never come to market because of recasting. It's called biting the hand that feeds you. Nowhere in any of my arguments do I make this a moral issue or an ethical one by societal or legal standards. This policy and stance is based solely on the survival of this community and its an INTERNAL standard established to preserve what we have HERE. I got sick and tired of hearing trooper armor recasters trying to justify what they had done by saying,"I just want my fellow troopers to be able to get armor inexpensively so I recast it and sell it for less then so and so who I got it from." Hogwash. They undercut the person who invested the time and considerable money in to purchasing the original and doing all the (tricky) work of making molds while preserving the original and try to justify it by helping out their fellow troopers. Consequently future offerings of items (if any) are done (if at all) in EXTREMELY limited runs and much more expensively to try and recoup costs, make a profit and keep the items in those hands you are not concerned about recasting.<<<<<<



- Doing this as a real income with max profit without a license is bad, doing it "from fan for fans, with a small margin just for the spend time and money" is OK, even without a license.

>>>In this economy I see no problem with folks trying to earn a living or at least subsidize their earnings by making props. It is time consuming and expensive and I have no issue with the prices reflecting that. If folks want to be altruistic about it and do it as a favor then God bless them but I dont think thats a fair expectation.<<<<<

But i still don´t judge the other side.


As a example:

There is a shipmodel, it is a direct cast from a studiomodel(or a deformed Vader Helmet) - and someone has this cast and produces and sells 1:1 copies of the studioship, with all it´s good and it´s bad parts. And there is amarket for such stuff. I assume that is OK for you?

Now there are also people who don´t like these 1:1 copies - they want parts that look as on the screen after the PC has done its work - a heroized Version, shiny and sweet. Now there is someone who buys a cast of the deformed original, cuts it down, is making fixes, doing upgrades, and so on - makes a mold and offers casts of HIS heroized Version, remember, it´s not any longer the original version. I assume you call him a recaster? Unless the fact that he has put multiple the time in it, the 1:1 original studioship/helmet seller has put in it? And the customers who like a clean made ship have to wait forever, or buy the mess of the studiostuff-copy?

>>>>The answer is simple. You ask the person you got it from if its OK (a step that seems to get skipped). If its such a major overhaul then why not sculpt it from scratch? If the person you got the original says,"Sure no problem," then go ahead. If they dont then you dont.<<<<

I never done that, i build from scratch, but such has happened - there is no black and no white part in this business. Mostly a dark grey.

I don´t know any of the 3 horses in this race (Rich/Sid/the guy who sells the stuff now) more than having read from them, so i take no side - but some people are to easy on judging. Esspeccially the ones that are afraid of beeing cut off from the cool toys.

>>>>We are here for the cool toys. Its what this hobby is based on. Kind of silly statement dont you think? at what point are people with a vested interest in this hobby supposed to NOT advocate maintaining access to the very items we are here for? You may want to rethink your argument as its self defeating to say the least.<<<<
 
>>>>We are here for the cool toys. Its what this hobby is based on. Kind of silly statement dont you think? at what point are people with a vested interest in this hobby supposed to NOT advocate maintaining access to the very items we are here for? You may want to rethink your argument as its self defeating to say the least.<<<<

It´s OK to want something - but if that goes hand in hand with a highly biased point of view, up to the point of creating a own, the wishes serving reality - then that is "not so good".

It´s never bad to keep an open mind for other valid views.
 
The other 'point of views' have been addressed here over and over again...this is not a new discussion and as I said before there will be no epiphanies here. Nothing new has been presented here...no radical new way of looking at things. We, as a community, established our personal code of conduct after having been over this time and time again. Those that are new here will simply have to accept what the community stance is here or go to a different community with a different COC. This isnt a democracy and the arguments are not new. Do a little research using the search tool for recasting arguments and wonder why those of us that have been here a long time are tired of seeing the same arguments brought up by those that are new here. People who recast or support recasting (tacitly or otherwise) arent welcome here. Theres really no further need to discuss this as its all been discussed before using the same tired arguments.

It´s OK to want something - but if that goes hand in hand with a highly biased point of view, up to the point of creating a own, the wishes serving reality - then that is "not so good".

It´s never bad to keep an open mind for other valid views.
 
The other 'point of views' have been addressed here over and over again...this is not a new discussion and as I said before there will be no epiphanies here. Nothing new has been presented here...no radical new way of looking at things. We, as a community, established our personal code of conduct after having been over this time and time again. Those that are new here will simply have to accept what the community stance is here or go to a different community with a different COC. This isnt a democracy and the arguments are not new. Do a little research using the search tool for recasting arguments and wonder why those of us that have been here a long time are tired of seeing the same arguments brought up by those that are new here. People who recast or support recasting (tacitly or otherwise) arent welcome here. Theres really no further need to discuss this as its all been discussed before using the same tired arguments.


I´m not giving arguments to any side - only stated that that it is no "ethics" that leads to this behaviour. It´s a simple "i WANT" - pretty fine, just don´t make it look as if it is any more. You´re right - it´s always the same funny discussion.

And in this "I want"-world of movie stuff, everyone has to find his own lines, the limits he can accept, or not. Cause there is no real difference in good/bad.

And for that, a open mind is a real advantage - wanting and accepting means not to ignore any other facts that don´t fit with my needs.
 
Pardon me, but that´s exactly what i estimated.




And that is exactly the part i don´t believe.

I know some of the producing guys, some get hit by a C&D, others stuff was recast - and usually (there is always one or another who loves to complain endless) they are angy for some days/weeks, and then they come over it. We know that we have no real rights on our stuff, that´s a part of the business, a risk we have to take. And the most accept that.

Interestingly most of the shouting comes from the fans and the collectors.

Why? Cause they are afraid to get no longer any stuff to buy/collect
It´s not ethics - it´s that they are freightened to loose the possibility to acquire stuff cause the makers refrain from doing new stuff. Thats all. Plain and simple.

Guess what, I don't give rats behind if you don't believe me. Just because I don't sell things makes you a better person than me. What a bunch of bull.

I'm in this thread for one reason and that it to support someone I respect whose work has been stolen by a two bit thief. I'm not in it to get anything from Rich and if you can't understand that, then maybe you are the one with a problem or hidden agenda.

And now I really am done with this thread. When an idiot I don't even know asks me a question and I answer it and then get insulted by the jerk, it's just not worth even responding anymore.

Good luck Rich
 
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there has to be a very good reason why a recaster would be getting plenty of press and rave reviews next to the guy that made the first one ever right?
Ha ha ha. No.

My involvement in the replica prop world would probably be described as superficial at best, and yet I am very aware of and impressed with all the amazing work Rich has done in the past, and that most definitely is not limited to the BR Blaster. For you to have little or no knowledge of Richard Coyle clearly indicates that your knowledge of replica props is trivial.

Sorry everyone, didn't mean to get involved here, but this guy is really pathetic. :thumbsdown
 
Guess what, I don't give rats behind if you don't believe me. Just because I don't sell things makes you a better person than me. What a bunch of bull.

No, i´m not better cause i do - but your way of articulation shows me enough.


I'm in this thread for one reason and that it to support someone I respect whose work has been stolen by a two bit thief. I'm not in it to get anything from Rich and if you can't understand that, then maybe you are the one with a problem or hidden agenda.

I have no hidden agenda, not a good and not a bad - there are people out there that know me for years, always the same Username. But more in another sector of the hobby.

And i´m here to discuss, to try to convince some people from their stereotyped thinking to a more differentiated perception. - WITHOUT to open their heart, house and wallet to recasters.

Yeah, i know i´m a idiot - since i´m still hoping for some common sense in such discussions.


And now I really am done with this thread. When an idiot I don't even know asks me a question and I answer it and then get insulted by the jerk, it's just not worth even responding anymore.

You are not really well-educated.

That you don´t know me ...... your lack of knowledge is not a problem, there are many people out there i don´t know. I don´t know you, but i don´t call you an idiot.
 
No, i´m not better cause i do - but your way of articulation shows me enough.




I have no hidden agenda, not a good and not a bad - there are people out there that know me for years, always the same Username. But more in another sector of the hobby.

And i´m here to discuss, to try to convince some people from their stereotyped thinking to a more differentiated perception. - WITHOUT to open their heart, house and wallet to recasters.

Yeah, i know i´m a idiot - since i´m still hoping for some common sense in such discussions.




You are not really well-educated.

That you don´t know me ...... your lack of knowledge is not a problem, there are many people out there i don´t know. I don´t know you, but i don´t call you an idiot.


I guess I lied

You really are a piece of work. I have two more words for you.

F YOU.
 
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Ha ha ha. No.

My involvement in the replica prop world would probably be described as superficial at best, and yet I am very aware of and impressed with all the amazing work Rich has done in the past, and that most definitely is not limited to the BR Blaster. For you to have little or no knowledge of Richard Coyle clearly indicates that your knowledge of replica props is trivial.

Sorry everyone, didn't mean to get involved here, but this guy is really pathetic. :thumbsdown

no. what is pathetic is a recast prop has more press to those that arent in the prop replica club, with as you would say "trivial" knowledge.

and its even more pathetic, that you dont understand that there are other people in this world other than yourself and the people here.

but thats ok. you have your small little world, and i have a real one.
 
Well I can see it is becoming a mad house...

A couple of people claim to want to learn and understand and then blow all the info out the door, so I am guessing all you really want to do is play.

Play time is over.

Rich
 
Hi Rich,

sorry for my part of the trouble in your thread.

Created stuff myself i completly understand your feelings, even when i have a slighly different opinion on some aspects. And i think you understand my point of view that every single one of us draws his lines on the details slighly different - and that you don´t blame me for that, as i don´t blame you for your view that is slighly different from mine.

It´s just that i´m still upset when the herolds of both sides, black and white, come one the field - and start yelling at the opponent side, while stopping to listen. So there is no exchange of ideas, only stupid barking.

Again, sorry.
 
no. what is pathetic is a recast prop has more press to those that arent in the prop replica club, with as you would say "trivial" knowledge.
and its even more pathetic, that you dont understand that there are other people in this world other than yourself and the people here.
but thats ok. you have your small little world, and i have a real one.

Whoah. Stand down, dude. You're really playing with fire; Rich's work is *very* well known among serious collectors. You're putting too much weight on something that is not as significant as you think it is.

So you heard of Sidkit's; that doesn't make it better than Rich's by a long shot. If you really want to go there, then you're on your own. (For the record, Rich has acknowledged the quality of Sid's work, that's a moot point. We're not arguing over whose is better.)

Don't forget. You're the one trying to come and play in our "small little world" - if you don't like it, there's a whole bunch of people who would like nothing more than for you to go back to your "real one."
 
What is the obsession for a lot of new members to want to change how this place has operated successfully for over 10 years? Over 10 years this place has been around, people have come, gone, left for a while and returned. It has worked fine for the most part with the usual ups and downs. However recently it seems like a good portion of new members only want to change how we as a community function. Is it because your old hangouts operated differently and you want to feel more at home here by conforming the RPF to your ideals? I don't understand the motivations. If this place is so amoral or dysfunctional, why come here? Thankfully most new members seem to be fitting in fine, but there are quite a few that seem to be very determined to cause discontent and not just the few in this thread.
 
Whoah. Stand down, dude. You're really playing with fire; Rich's work is *very* well known among serious collectors. You're putting too much weight on something that is not as significant as you think it is.

So you heard of Sidkit's; that doesn't make it better than Rich's by a long shot. If you really want to go there, then you're on your own. (For the record, Rich has acknowledged the quality of Sid's work, that's a moot point. We're not arguing over whose is better.)
i didnt say i thought it was better, i was asking why i heard more about sid's than rich's and why i heard such rave reviews to go along with it but little to no information about rich's.

Don't forget. You're the one trying to come and play in our "small little world"
i havent forgotten about that, im constantly reminded about that every time i pop in.
 
Did you not read my post about the kit builders having more to show than those the buy my built model??

Simple answer.

Rich
 
Did you not read my post about the kit builders having more to show than those the buy my built model??

The people i know having stuff from you, are proud to show it cause they love it.

It´s another "proud" than having build it themself, but not less proud.
 
Did you not read my post about the kit builders having more to show than those the buy my built model??

This is likely the case, combined with the cheaper asking price. He also had a fairly well-designed website as I recall so he probably had more publicity outside of the central community.
 
Not to add any additional fuel to this fire, but I believe a more extensive history might contribute to a better understanding of the issue, regardless of whose "side" the reader eventually takes. I think Andy did an exemplary job of describing the dispute between Rich and Sid (and their efforts to come to a resolution before Sid's passing). However, even that description could - I think - benefit from additional historical context, however anecdotal (the following narrative is, admittedly, based on my personal knowledge of the situation - I don't presume to speak for anyone else). To that end:

Rich has been making and selling BR blasters since at least the early 1990s, when I first met him. Rich's models then were based on his cast of an original, stunt BR blaster (the ones with no "pinkie cut out" on the grip). They were painted in various color schemes, and offered an led "laser sight" at the front of the Steyr receiver. By and large, Rich's were the best of the replicas offered at the time, and I presume he sold many of them (at least one to me).

In the mid-1990s Rich, Phil S., and a number of other collectors (including myself, in a limited capacity) began conducting more detailed research into the history and manufacture of the original BR blaster prop, with the goal of producing a more accurate model. The ultimate product of these efforts - for Rich and Phil S. at least - was the C&S Blaster v1, which Rich continuously updated for many years, through the v6 (I believe), just prior to Karl's publication of the WorldCon photos.

In order to create the C&S blaster, Rich and Phil did a tremendous amount of leg-work, detective-work, and tracked down the original parts used to make the BR blaster. Rich then "engineered" his model, altering casts of the original parts, and putting his unique "spin" on them to make the masters for the C&S Blaster v1. It is presumably based upon the significant work undertaken to produce the first C&S Blaster that Rich feels a sense of ownership with respect to this particular prop.

In the early 2000s, Sid obtained a C&S Blaster, and - by his own admission - pulled molds from the blaster and began to produce a virtually exact duplicate (in both metal and resin, if I recall correctly) of Rich's model. It is this act of "recasting" (I hate that word) that led to the dispute between Rich and Sid. As others have noted in this thread, Sid's understanding of the unwritten code regarding "recasting" was limited at the time. Nonetheless, Rich's criticism of Sid is entirely justified, as Sid did, in fact, cast a C&S Blaster and offer essentially identical copies for sale. (Full disclosure: I once received an early metal Sidkit in trade on a deal, but have since sold that kit.)

The story doesn't stop there, of course. After Karl's publication of the WorldCon photos, the race was on to create an even more accurate BR Blaster, and both Rich and Sid (among others) went back to the drawing board to improve upon their existing products. Since much of Sid's offering at the time was still based upon Rich's original C&S Blaster, the dispute between Rich and Sid persisted.

Sid, with the help of some forum members, sought out additional WorldCon details and parts in order to create his version of the WorldCon gun. Rich, with the help of others (including myself), did the same thing.

Sid and Rich then began offering their latest take on the WorldCon model: Rich as a built-up prop, and Sid largely as a kit. The problem - I think - from Rich's perspective was that Sid's model still owed something to the C&S Blaster, albeit less in every successive generation, and that Sid was able to offer his model as a kit when Rich didn't, undercutting his prices.

I have seen the most recent SidKit WorldCon model (produced just prior to Sid's passing), and it is remarkable, with very good attention to detail. Some members of this forum (e.g. KramStarr) have built absolutely amazing WorldCon reproductions based on the SidKit model. It does have some deficiencies - namely the metal used (which is very soft and very heavy) and the fact that the "5223" stamped into the receiver does not match the original in size, orientation, or font.

I have also seen the most recent Rich Coyle WorldCon. I own one. In my personal opinion, it is a superior prop both because of the materials (Rich's pewter is harder and finishes better) and attention to detail (e.g. the "5223" inscription directly matches the original).

Moreover, Rich's model is an "original" in a way that Sid's never can be. Rich and Phil did the legwork to bring the original version of this prop to fruition, more than ten years ago. However good it is (and it is good), Sid's model will always suffer - at least reputationally - because it started as a "recast" of the C&S. I don't dispute the fact that Sid eventually went back and re-worked his model significantly. He did. But without Rich's original C&S Blaster, Sid would not have been able to produce a quality model.

Note also that a number of other prop builders have made BR blasters. Craig K. made a firing model. Rick Ross sculpted and cast two magnificent interpretations of the prop. A Japanese airsoft and blank-firing model were produced. Most recently, Tomenosuke (sp?) produced their own model, made after taking first-hand measurements from the original hero prop.

Rich has never challenged any of these products, even though some arguably owe a debt to the C&S Blaster (not Rick's models, of course). Really, the only discussion that seems to raise his ire is one regarding the SidKit. I can understand that, as Rich justifiably took pride in the research and craftsmanship that went into the original C&S. Sid's throwing some rubber over the C&S has to have hurt, however much Sid revised the "recast" in later generations.

At the end of the day, it comes down to how comfortable one is purchasing a model that originated with a "recast." Sid's supporters rightly emphasize the significant re-working that Sid did in connection with producing his version of the WorldCon model. Rich's supporters rightly emphasize Rich's decade-long history with this prop, and his production of the original C&S. There is some legitimacy to both perspectives, I suppose.

Given the choice, I'd go for the Coyle. (And for the newbies and trolls: I may have a low post count, and didn't join the forum until a few years ago, but I have been at this for almost twenty years, maintaining good relationships with almost all of "heavy hitters" around here for years, which is a hard thing to do given the sometimes unbearable politics of this hobby - so believe me, I know what I'm talking about.)
 
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