Score of my lifetime. SL ANH Vader face mask.

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OCDChad

Member
Also, the people that just want to buy stuff and wear it are putting money into this community. They create demand for ready to wear items that helps our very own members here.
 

ggriffaw

Sr Member
Even if there was a way to order a completely accurate Vader costume by clicking a button on Amazon, most Vader fans would not order it. The cost would be higher than most people want to spend. It's a pretty small percentage that are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a costume or possibly just a helmet.

Keeping information so difficult to find makes it more likely someone will get fooled by a seller claiming an item is something that it isn't. As we see in this thread, even someone that has done lots of research can be tricked into buying something that isn't what the seller claimed it was.

There will be a strong temptation to not follow the agreements and code when recasts can be sold for alot of money. I don't agree with people recasting other people's items, but obviously there is a good number of people that don't have a problem with it. The more rare and valuable an item is perceived to be, the greater the temptation will be.

People may knowingly buy a recast because it is easier and cheaper to get or not know that it is a recast because they don't know what to look for.
 

OCDChad

Member
Even if there was a way to order a completely accurate Vader costume by clicking a button on Amazon, most Vader fans would not order it. The cost would be higher than most people want to spend. It's a pretty small percentage that are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a costume or possibly just a helmet.

Keeping information so difficult to find makes it more likely someone will get fooled by a seller claiming an item is something that it isn't. As we see in this thread, even someone that has done lots of research can be tricked into buying something that isn't what the seller claimed it was.

There will be a strong temptation to not follow the agreements and code when recasts can be sold for alot of money. I don't agree with people recasting other people's items, but obviously there is a good number of people that don't have a problem with it. The more rare and valuable an item is perceived to be, the greater the temptation will be.

People may knowingly buy a recast because it is easier and cheaper to get or not know that it is a recast because they don't know what to look for.
I'm with you there. Recasting exists because there's a market that isn't being fulfilled by what I would call the legitimate makers.
 

vader45

Sr Member
I'm with you there. Recasting exists because there's a market that isn't being fulfilled by what I would call the legitimate makers.
The high end Vader community is small, like very SMALL. There really is no demand for these helmets out side of here and the Prop Den. I've told outsiders and even casual Vader fans who cosplay what I spend and they think it's absurd to waste thousands on this stuff.

Log out of this forum and drive around your town until you find a Vader collector like us. You have a higher chance at being elected US President.

Seeing the 501st members list may make it look like SW and Vader costumes are done by every tom dick and hairy but in reality it's only a few hundred people out of that who make up over a billion in the Earths population.

Go visit the Prop Den. The traffic is slow over there due to the Niche market the Vader community is.

There are people who cosplay as Vader. Majority of them don't care for high accuracy. Then we have that ones that do and then the ones who only want lineage. Each group shrinks in size.

The SL was available to purchase, as long as both sides agreed to the agreement, for many years before Thomas left. Only 26 copies are out there. That says a lot about how small the Vader community is. There is no demand for this stuff hence the limited availability. Price is also a huge contributing factor. The average Joe can not afford this stuff.
 

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OCDChad

Member
The high end Vader community is small, like very SMALL. There really is no demand for these helmets out side of here and the Prop Den. I've told outsiders and even casual Vader fans who cosplay what I spend and they think it's absurd to waste thousands on this stuff.

Log out of this forum and drive around your town until you find a Vader collector like us. You have a higher chance at being elected US President.

Seeing the 501st members list may make it look like SW and Vader costumes are done by every tom dick and hairy but in reality it's only a few hundred people out of that who make up over a billion in the Earths population.

Go visit the Prop Den. The traffic is slow over there due to the Niche market the Vader community is.

There are people who cosplay as Vader. Majority of them don't care for high accuracy. Then we have that ones that do and then the ones who only want lineage. Each group shrinks in size.

The SL was available to purchase, as long as both sides agreed to the agreement, for many years before Thomas left. Only 26 copies are out there. That says a lot about how small the Vader community is. There is no demand for this stuff hence the limited availability. Price is also a huge contributing factor. The average Joe can not afford this stuff.
The demand is clearly enough for recasters to exist. As availability and price improve they get driven out.
 

vader45

Sr Member
The demand is clearly enough for recasters to exist. As availability and price improve they get driven out.
Those pieces are highly and I mean HIGHLY desired among the community. Its not about filling the demand more so then popular pieces fetching high end dollars and others are wanting their cut.

Recasting is a self absorbed action. It's theft of other people's work. You think they would do it for a selfless reason? They don't care about any one but themselves and they have proven so by lying, cheating and stealing. They just want their cut of the money and attention.

Any one with good standing morals wouldn't do it just to fill a demand. It's wrong.
 

Kroenen77

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The high end Vader community is small, like very SMALL. There really is no demand for these helmets out side of here and the Prop Den. I've told outsiders and even casual Vader fans who cosplay what I spend and they think it's absurd to waste thousands on this stuff.

Log out of this forum and drive around your town until you find a Vader collector like us. You have a higher chance at being elected US President.

Seeing the 501st members list may make it look like SW and Vader costumes are done by every tom dick and hairy but in reality it's only a few hundred people out of that who make up over a billion in the Earths population.

Go visit the Prop Den. The traffic is slow over there due to the Niche market the Vader community is.

There are people who cosplay as Vader. Majority of them don't care for high accuracy. Then we have that ones that do and then the ones who only want lineage. Each group shrinks in size.

The SL was available to purchase, as long as both sides agreed to the agreement, for many years before Thomas left. Only 26 copies are out there. That says a lot about how small the Vader community is. There is no demand for this stuff hence the limited availability. Price is also a huge contributing factor. The average Joe can not afford this stuff.
Your so right.Its really a very small market.But is that bad?To be in this small group is the goal of the long way to the (near)perfect Vader.
Who cares what the average Joe(or better his wife)wants to pay for a Vaderhelmet?
 

vader45

Sr Member
Your so right.Its really a very small market.But is that bad?To be in this small group is the goal of the long way to the (near)perfect Vader.
Who cares what the average Joe(or better his wife)wants to pay for a Vaderhelmet?
I was explaining to the new guy why the good stuff isn't more widely available. I wasn't knocking the community for being small.
 

ggriffaw

Sr Member
Yes the high end Vader community is small, but apparently it is big enough to not want too many details to be widely available. There is a sense of certain people being allowed to be in the know and enjoying that others are not allowed to know the same information.

Several people offer high quality helmets with good lineage now. These aren't as limited as the SL. If you are willing to pay the price, you can generally order these.

Certain casts like the SL may still be more revered because they were so limited regardless of alternatives being available. The rarity may he the biggest draw for a genuine SL.

If you just want a high quality helmet with lineage, there are other more easily acquired options.
 

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Mouse Vader

Sr Member
Not all singing from the same hymn book here? Or am I missing something?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
I'm saying that your fine words about about display etc.
It completely diminishes hard work and effort we people out into our stuff. And voids the opportunity to learn about said pieces. People will just buy and wear with no knowledge of what is what and how to wear. Presentation is a huge part of a high end piece. With research and hard work of building it you learn how to properly show off the piece
are clearly nothing to do with voice in the crowds motives for purchase. He has SL No 1, which he has done nothing with since purchase & it has been in storage for years, not even on display unfinished. Doesn't seem to be much hard work going on there either. I've no doubt you mean what you say about these items but clearly other people do other things. I respect you're opinion & your right to it but it's fallacious to use that as objective evidence in a moral debate.

My logic is with ggiffaw. Whatever the size of market/demand, if it's not being serviced by 'legit' producers AND there are reasonably large sums of money involved then unscrupulous people will fill the gap. If the legit producer is doing this as business then they should have taken this sort of thing into consideration in their business model & charged accordingly for their hard work, presumably this is why they are expensive. They are thus recompensed. If they didn't then that's their own mistake & those who by from other source should not re repimanded for doing so. They also set their own production levels either to suit their circumstances (again reflected in product price) or to manipulate the market (naughty).

If they're not running a business it's a little less clear cut. Then, yes, they may have some room for complaint (but I've seen none from them so far). But what is being 'stolen' in this context. Hard work? The active word here is 'work'. The recaster has to do work to make the mould's & cast from them, too. The have to acquire access to the the item to recast, a little easier than getting access to an orginal prop or mould, admittedly but still has to be done (& paid for?). They are not stealing money or valuable object so it's not theft in that sense. Not intelectual property either - the legit source did not sculpt the the ting originally.

Research then? This then is about credit & hurt pride. They have to know the right people to gain access to the original prop & we're round to the exclusive club argument again. If a recaster could get access to the original prop would they 'recast' from that or a 1st gen 'cast'. Wait if they could cast from an original then they could claim to be 'legit' right? So this is the nub of the matter. Who your friends are & 'exclusive rights'. & the 'fly in the ointment' word there is 'exclusive'. If you want to hold exclusive rights & NOT produce anything with them (ie, you cease production) then I feel this is a very selfish, arrogant & morally hypocritical position to place yourself in if you them start citising some else who want's (for whatever reason) to fill gap in the market (however small a market that might be.)

SO - is this a business or not? There's very little morals, usually, in business. If you bring them to business you're being naive to think they'll be respected. If it's not business then using business (& legal terms) in your arguments is fallacious.

Personally I have no problem with recasters so long as they make it clear their product is a recast. For me the moral line is crossed when they try & pass their work off as someone else's. As happened in this instance. It's not a 'moral theft' it's 'moral fraud'. It's moral not legal as the legit producer, as far as I can tell, had no licensed 'right' to make in the first place.

It's also interesting to me that this appears only to be a moral line & not a legal one as the 'legit' producer also had no legal right to produce in the first place.

You all may also find it interesting that this exact same moral (recasting) argument rages, with even greater vehemence, in the BJD community. And for the same reasons - people mixing business & legal aspects with moral ones. They are separate realms.
 

vader45

Sr Member
I'm saying that your fine words about about display etc.

are clearly nothing to do with voice in the crowds motives for purchase. He has SL No 1, which he has done nothing with since purchase & it has been in storage for years, not even on display unfinished. Doesn't seem to be much hard work going on there either. I've no doubt you mean what you say about these items but clearly other people do other things. I respect you're opinion & your right to it but it's fallacious to use that as objective evidence in a moral debate.

My logic is with ggiffaw. Whatever the size of market/demand, if it's not being serviced by 'legit' producers AND there are reasonably large sums of money involved then unscrupulous people will fill the gap. If the legit producer is doing this as business then they should have taken this sort of thing into consideration in their business model & charged accordingly for their hard work, presumably this is why they are expensive. They are thus recompensed. If they didn't then that's their own mistake & those who by from other source should not re repimanded for doing so. They also set their own production levels either to suit their circumstances (again reflected in product price) or to manipulate the market (naughty).

If they're not running a business it's a little less clear cut. Then, yes, they may have some room for complaint (but I've seen none from them so far). But what is being 'stolen' in this context. Hard work? The active word here is 'work'. The recaster has to do work to make the mould's & cast from them, too. The have to acquire access to the the item to recast, a little easier than getting access to an orginal prop or mould, admittedly but still has to be done (& paid for?). They are not stealing money or valuable object so it's not theft in that sense. Not intelectual property either - the legit source did not sculpt the the ting originally.

Research then? This then is about credit & hurt pride. They have to know the right people to gain access to the original prop & we're round to the exclusive club argument again. If a recaster could get access to the original prop would they 'recast' from that or a 1st gen 'cast'. Wait if they could cast from an original then they could claim to be 'legit' right? So this is the nub of the matter. Who your friends are & 'exclusive rights'. & the 'fly in the ointment' word there is 'exclusive'. If you want to hold exclusive rights & NOT produce anything with them (ie, you cease production) then I feel this is a very selfish, arrogant & morally hypocritical position to place yourself in if you them start citising some else who want's (for whatever reason) to fill gap in the market (however small a market that might be.)

SO - is this a business or not? There's very little morals, usually, in business. If you bring them to business you're being naive to think they'll be respected. If it's not business then using business (& legal terms) in your arguments is fallacious.

Personally I have no problem with recasters so long as they make it clear their product is a recast. For me the moral line is crossed when they try & pass their work off as someone else's. As happened in this instance. It's not a 'moral theft' it's 'moral fraud'. It's moral not legal as the legit producer, as far as I can tell, had no licensed 'right' to make in the first place.

It's also interesting to me that this appears only to be a moral line & not a legal one as the 'legit' producer also had no legal right to produce in the first place.

You all may also find it interesting that this exact same moral (recasting) argument rages, with even greater vehemence, in the BJD community. And for the same reasons - people mixing business & legal aspects with moral ones. They are separate realms.

Your post sounds like you're supporting the recasting to fill demand.

Recasting is wrong no matter how you spin it. It will always be a copy of an item someone else made for the community. They legit made it from the real source and a recaster just makes a copy of the cast they made. The recast is just further away from its source as well.

It's wrong and should not be done under any circumstances.

You clearly don't understand my quote either. It was in response to OCDChad wanting completed costumes ready to purchase so more people can have them. It has nothing to do with the authentic casts. Read all the posts again and look at who I was quoting.

You might want to rethink your view on recasting because that can get you banned. The community is strictly against recasting and the dude who made my recasted SL is already banned.
 
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I'm saying that your fine words about about display etc.

are clearly nothing to do with voice in the crowds motives for purchase. He has SL No 1, which he has done nothing with since purchase & it has been in storage for years, not even on display unfinished. Doesn't seem to be much hard work going on there either. I've no doubt you mean what you say about these items but clearly other people do other things. I respect you're opinion & your right to it but it's fallacious to use that as objective evidence in a moral debate.

My logic is with ggiffaw. Whatever the size of market/demand, if it's not being serviced by 'legit' producers AND there are reasonably large sums of money involved then unscrupulous people will fill the gap. If the legit producer is doing this as business then they should have taken this sort of thing into consideration in their business model & charged accordingly for their hard work, presumably this is why they are expensive. They are thus recompensed. If they didn't then that's their own mistake & those who by from other source should not re repimanded for doing so. They also set their own production levels either to suit their circumstances (again reflected in product price) or to manipulate the market (naughty).

If they're not running a business it's a little less clear cut. Then, yes, they may have some room for complaint (but I've seen none from them so far). But what is being 'stolen' in this context. Hard work? The active word here is 'work'. The recaster has to do work to make the mould's & cast from them, too. The have to acquire access to the the item to recast, a little easier than getting access to an orginal prop or mould, admittedly but still has to be done (& paid for?). They are not stealing money or valuable object so it's not theft in that sense. Not intelectual property either - the legit source did not sculpt the the ting originally.

Research then? This then is about credit & hurt pride. They have to know the right people to gain access to the original prop & we're round to the exclusive club argument again. If a recaster could get access to the original prop would they 'recast' from that or a 1st gen 'cast'. Wait if they could cast from an original then they could claim to be 'legit' right? So this is the nub of the matter. Who your friends are & 'exclusive rights'. & the 'fly in the ointment' word there is 'exclusive'. If you want to hold exclusive rights & NOT produce anything with them (ie, you cease production) then I feel this is a very selfish, arrogant & morally hypocritical position to place yourself in if you them start citising some else who want's (for whatever reason) to fill gap in the market (however small a market that might be.)

SO - is this a business or not? There's very little morals, usually, in business. If you bring them to business you're being naive to think they'll be respected. If it's not business then using business (& legal terms) in your arguments is fallacious.

Personally I have no problem with recasters so long as they make it clear their product is a recast. For me the moral line is crossed when they try & pass their work off as someone else's. As happened in this instance. It's not a 'moral theft' it's 'moral fraud'. It's moral not legal as the legit producer, as far as I can tell, had no licensed 'right' to make in the first place.

It's also interesting to me that this appears only to be a moral line & not a legal one as the 'legit' producer also had no legal right to produce in the first place.

You all may also find it interesting that this exact same moral (recasting) argument rages, with even greater vehemence, in the BJD community. And for the same reasons - people mixing business & legal aspects with moral ones. They are separate realms.
You have no idea my motives for my purchase of the SL you are being very presumptuous.

My SL Vader hasn't been in storage for years you dreamt that up nobody said that, whether it is is in storage or not you do not know my person circumstances that made me have to put it in storage.

Because I haven't finished it means nothing as when I bought it I liked it as a rough cast as I like to keep the details. I would admit though that if I could get if finished nowadays then I would.

I was a real Vader enthusiast and SW prop enthusiast. I am not some rich guy who can buy anything I want any time I want. I have been into props for more than 20 years and have helped out every person who has ever come to me for advice or help. I would like to think that even though I haven't been on the forums for year people who do remember me here would remember me for being helpful and part of the community.

The reason I had to put my prop enthusiasm on hold for years was due to serious health issues and a serious re-think on what is important in my life.

How dare you jump to any conclusions about my motives about what I have bought and what I do with my props.

You should possibly question your own morals and your foolish jumping to conclusions about people, on the strength of my fun post on what is meant to be a fun forum.

Shame on you. Your post is exactly the reason as to why I hardly visit forums anymore.
 

juajn7fernandez

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I was a real Vader enthusiast and SW prop enthusiast. I am not some rich guy who can buy anything I want any time I want. I have been into props for more than 20 years and have helped out every person who has ever come to me for advice or help. I would like to think that even though I haven't been on the forums for year people who do remember me here would remember me for being helpful and part of the community.
200_d.gif
 

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Too Much Garlic

Master Member
I never understood the exclusivity, however these owners and original makers has the right to decide how many casts they want to offer and to whom. It doesn't matter if there is a market, or more people want them. If anyone else wants to fill the gap left by one of these makers when they stop making casts, should just go out and get an original or access instead of just copying someone else's offering - if they did that, no one would have any issues with them. But a recaster does not risk damaging an original to make copies available or care about the material used to make casts.
 

Mouse Vader

Sr Member
Ok I'll shut up & stay away from this this thread & this sort of debate. Ruffles to many feathers. I too have my issues. If you have been offended by my comments I apologize.
 

ggriffaw

Sr Member
Recasting without permission from whoever is considered to have the rights to the item is definitely frowned upon. Acquiring an original item usually takes lots of money and time. That is way different than ordering a product, then making copies of it.

Depending on the country, the seller may or may not have legal rights to sell the item. That is not what is being discussed. Recasting breaks the code and accepted behavior of the replica prop community. Some people are willing to break that code to make a profit, but there will be consequences when they are caught.

The general consensus of keeping a known recasted item surprised me. I wasn't sure what the expectations would be for handling a recasted item once it was discovered. Is it allowed to resell the item if the seller specifies it is a recast? If so that seems to weaken the stance against recast items.
 

craigjohn

Well-Known Member
I'm saying that your fine words about about display etc.

are clearly nothing to do with voice in the crowds motives for purchase. He has SL No 1, which he has done nothing with since purchase & it has been in storage for years, not even on display unfinished. Doesn't seem to be much hard work going on there either. I've no doubt you mean what you say about these items but clearly other people do other things. I respect you're opinion & your right to it but it's fallacious to use that as objective evidence in a moral debate.

My logic is with ggiffaw. Whatever the size of market/demand, if it's not being serviced by 'legit' producers AND there are reasonably large sums of money involved then unscrupulous people will fill the gap. If the legit producer is doing this as business then they should have taken this sort of thing into consideration in their business model & charged accordingly for their hard work, presumably this is why they are expensive. They are thus recompensed. If they didn't then that's their own mistake & those who by from other source should not re repimanded for doing so. They also set their own production levels either to suit their circumstances (again reflected in product price) or to manipulate the market (naughty).

If they're not running a business it's a little less clear cut. Then, yes, they may have some room for complaint (but I've seen none from them so far). But what is being 'stolen' in this context. Hard work? The active word here is 'work'. The recaster has to do work to make the mould's & cast from them, too. The have to acquire access to the the item to recast, a little easier than getting access to an orginal prop or mould, admittedly but still has to be done (& paid for?). They are not stealing money or valuable object so it's not theft in that sense. Not intelectual property either - the legit source did not sculpt the the ting originally.

Research then? This then is about credit & hurt pride. They have to know the right people to gain access to the original prop & we're round to the exclusive club argument again. If a recaster could get access to the original prop would they 'recast' from that or a 1st gen 'cast'. Wait if they could cast from an original then they could claim to be 'legit' right? So this is the nub of the matter. Who your friends are & 'exclusive rights'. & the 'fly in the ointment' word there is 'exclusive'. If you want to hold exclusive rights & NOT produce anything with them (ie, you cease production) then I feel this is a very selfish, arrogant & morally hypocritical position to place yourself in if you them start citising some else who want's (for whatever reason) to fill gap in the market (however small a market that might be.)

SO - is this a business or not? There's very little morals, usually, in business. If you bring them to business you're being naive to think they'll be respected. If it's not business then using business (& legal terms) in your arguments is fallacious.

Personally I have no problem with recasters so long as they make it clear their product is a recast. For me the moral line is crossed when they try & pass their work off as someone else's. As happened in this instance. It's not a 'moral theft' it's 'moral fraud'. It's moral not legal as the legit producer, as far as I can tell, had no licensed 'right' to make in the first place.

It's also interesting to me that this appears only to be a moral line & not a legal one as the 'legit' producer also had no legal right to produce in the first place.

You all may also find it interesting that this exact same moral (recasting) argument rages, with even greater vehemence, in the BJD community. And for the same reasons - people mixing business & legal aspects with moral ones. They are separate realms.
Just a note. Many people don’t finish their Authentic raw casts, because it covers up the original screen used helmet’s details.

They’ll buy a more readily available (less exclusive?) cast to paint up and finish.

So it has much less to do with, “they haven’t done anything with the SL”....
 
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