S-foil deployment mechanism upgrade - 1:48 MPC X-wing

Discussion in 'General Modeling' started by Hagoth, Mar 11, 2015.

  1. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone, new to this forum even though I have stalked it for quite some time. I must say there is an impressive amount of talent here. I hope my contributions are considered worthy. I've been out of the modeling stage for way too long and it's time to step back into it. I have way too many 3D creations just begging to become physical manifestations. :D

    I want to introduce my latest project (inspired in part by some X-wing related threads here) to create a better mechanism for operating the S-foils on X-Wing models. Specifically my old MPC 1:48 scale X-wing. The wing pivot mechanism was wonky to begin with as the wings can rock in the body as well as independently from each other. Plus you can see right through the model. After many years of display they are sagging. Time for an upgrade.

    The goal of this project was to create a mechanism that would eliminate the rocking and wobble, fix the sagging, synchronize the wings opening and closing and lock them in position either opened or closed. On top of that I wanted the mechanism to be completely contained in the existing model wing box and be manual or motor operated. Beyond that the mechanism would be scalable for 1:35 and 1:24 versions.

    The projected name is PM-1A. Here are the results so far:

    http://hagoth.wix.com/the-brass-ball#!pm-1a/cjex

    I'm interested in feedback on the concept so far in general, however, in particular from anyone who has an old 1:48 MPC X-Wing since this will eventually become a kit for it.

    _________________
    "It's kind of fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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  2. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    That looks fantastic. I think you're on a winner there. You just need to make one for the newer "super size me" Hasbro X-Wing now.
     
  3. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Thanks!

    Do you have a link to the one you are thinking about? There is one out there that does not have positionable wings at all. It would require a lot of scratch building to install a positioning mechanism scaled for that toy but then I guess that is part of the fun. :)

    If that toy is 1:24 scale then a general version is already on the schedule. If someone requests that I specifically make one for the Hasbro toy and can provide me the 12 or so critical dimensions that I need, or better yet sends me a loaner to take them from I will put it on the project list.

    The project order is currently the 1:48 scale for the MPC model, a 1:35 scale for the Pro-Shop model, and a general 1:24 scale for scratch built studio scale models.
     
  4. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    Yup. That's the one. The Hasbro Hero Series X-Wing but this one scales out to about 1/17 scale.

    [​IMG]

     
  5. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    I:17 scale would be a very doable size. Anyone want to collaborate on a project to do it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the way, in case there are others that are having trouble figuring out that the last image in the development log is just an image link to the video and not supposed to be the video itself (video link is in the bottom left corner of the image) here is the direct link:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28Q2ZbuiFAc
     
  6. jah5150

    jah5150 Well-Known Member

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    I'll be following your progress with great interest.
     
  7. vectorzero

    vectorzero Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm sold on this. Love the attention to detail wrt the fit.

    I seem to have collected a great deal of X Wings in boxes, but the the Pro Shop 1:35 and a brace of Mk IV Salzo's are in there, so I'd be a later project target audience.
     
  8. senormodeler

    senormodeler Member

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    If this could be used in the Salzo V4 x-wing then I want one!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why not if it is at lest 1:48 scale. If I can find detailed information on the Salzo V4 to get the 12 or so critical dimensions I'll add it to the project list. Better yet if someone wants to loan me a model kit to take measurements from (you will get it back) that would be perfect. :D

    I already have a loaner kit for the 1:35 Pro-Shop for that very purpose, which is the next project on the list.

    When a 1:48 VII TFA X-Wing comes out this unit will be adapted to fit right in.
     
  10. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I just looked up a Salzo V4 kit. Forgive me for not recognizing the name. I recognized the images as soon as I saw them. As it is 1:24 scale a mechanism that could fit in them is already configuration number 3 on my project list. There are so many versions of this size out there I had decided to do a generic one for that scale once I have agreed upon basic dimensions and let people scratch build the mounting mates to put it in their model. Again, if there is someone out there who wants to loan me the body and wings of a 1:24 scale kit to take measurements from I will design it to fit that kit exactly and others can scratch fit the result into the other dozen 1:24 options out there.

    Mike's builder kit would be perfect for this as people would be building their own wings anyway. What might be the best way to contact Mike? I would love to collaborate with him on this.
     
  11. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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  12. RogueTrooper

    RogueTrooper Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but I really don't get the premise.

    You are building a way for the wings to open and close, as in....."look, I push a button and wings open and then close"

    Is that correct?
     
  13. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    To be honest your post appears sarcastic and at worst makes it seem like you have an attitude.
     
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  14. RogueTrooper

    RogueTrooper Well-Known Member

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    I asked a legitimate question. I don't know what he is trying to achieve???.....what is the point?

    I respect any person who is building or attempting to build anything.

    Maybe you should stop trolling (against RPF Rules) and stop baiting (against RPF Rules) and maybe you should build something??.:confused

    My builds are in my sig and if you check my profile, you'll find I'm very supportive of any person building anything here on the RPF.

    I do not appreciate your random unjustified comments......;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
  15. danikin72

    danikin72 Active Member

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    Yes, he is trying to have a new wing mech because in all honesty most of the kit supplied ones suck ( especially the MPC ).

    I would be down for a hero xwing mech at 1/17 for sure, hell even a MPC one as well.

    How may I aquire one of these lovely pieces?
     
  16. holtaa

    holtaa New Member

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    Thanks for posting the link to the video. I kept looking for the "spiindle to point the way", but couldn't find it. Cool solution to a big problem. Are you going to make a small hatch in the end to turn the mechanism?
     
  17. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Ok, here comes an epistle.:p

    In answer to your question. No. Did you watch the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28Q2ZbuiFAc&feature=youtu.be Since you are asking the question it tells me you might not be aware of the short comings with nearly all the existing wing operating mechanisms out there. I have to assume you have built the old 1:48 MPC X-wing. If so you have to agree that the wing pivot has much to be desired. If not then take my word for it. There are many out there who will agree. MPC is one of the worst ever.

    As I mentioned in my project introduction post the basic premise is to correct the wonky out of sync wobbly operation of the wing pivot on my 1:48 MPC kit. I wanted to make a device that would fit completely inside my model (that's 2" of space) with no external armatures and could be operated manually or be motorized. It would provide a completely enclosed wing box so that you could not see through the model or into the back or front interiors. The wings would self lock in either the open or closed position so they would not drift one way or the other while on display. The unit would also correct the sagging of the wings and connect them so as to operate in perfect sync. It would also eliminate the independent rocking of the wings in the body. I'm pleased to say that the prototype mechanism accomplished all that or has the potential to quite nicely.

    I was told that it was impossible at this scale and the mechanism would never work. The features are too small. You will never be able to make one. Don't waste your time. Nobody will be interested. Well, wrong on all counts so far. I'm not aware of anyone else out there who has accomplished this in such a compact method at this scale.

    When it comes to the operation of the mechanism there will be two mode options. The manual operation will be through the servo bump on the back of the model. More another day on how I will accomplish that. The motorized version will be through a tiny motor in place of the manual extension of the drive shaft. I have 11 m of room to work with. Push a button to open or close the wings? I want way more than that. Why use a button? Here are the related features that will eventually fit under the unit and in front and behind the cockpit.

    Rechargeable battery with a hidden USB charger port out the back
    Lit engines, cockpit, and possibly R2. The power for the engine lights feeds through the mechanism with hidden micro wires.
    A controller board with a sound chip of the wing operation.
    Bluetooth interface for voice command control.

    The end result? A model of an X-Wing with perfect wing operation from a completely self contained and powered unit free of wires and a base. Ambitious? Yes. I'll likely need a lot of help with this. Hence my introduction of the project on various forums.

    The bonus is that I can easily modify the unit to do the same thing for 1:35, 1:24, and 1:17 scale X-wings.

    I'm certain there are many other Star Wars fans out there who have dreamed of this very thing. :D
     
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  18. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    You could possibly even connect the mechanism's rod up to the butt plate and with a simple turn of the Airfix Harrow part turn the mechanism and thereby opening the wings. That would be :cool.

    Just a thought. :D
     
  19. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    I see there were several post while I wrote my epistle. :)

    With your request a 1:17 version is now officially on the project list as iteration number 4. PM-1D The Web page will be updated with it soon.

    As for obtaining the MPC version you can wait till I have the production units created and pick one up off my web site (when I get that part set up) or if you can't wait I can squeeze in time to build you a hand crafted prototype at cost. They come numbered and signed. Number one is mine. :lol While more expensive than a production kit it just might be worth it for a few avid fans out there.

    ...I must say it is really fun to feel this thing work.

    For the 1:17 scale version does anyone have a model they could loan me to take measurements from?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
  20. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Well, that was one possibility. Another was just a simple hole through the back plate. Not cool enough. Then I came up with an awesome method that I think is pure genus! I was going to save the explanation for how the manual operation would work for another day when I could post the renderings of the concept at the same time but now... with the post below...

    Stole my thunder man! :lol

    I was just explaining to my wife how this would work and that is exactly what will happen. So here is the verbal description.

    I will cut the servo hub (Airfix Harrow part) out of the back of the model and put it on a tube slider roughly the same diameter as the round center part so that it can extend about 8 mm out from the back. This will have a thick plate on the end and hole through it the size of the drive shaft. When pulled out it will engage two toothed disks (one on the end of the drive shaft and the other on the end of the servo hub tube, that will allow you to open and close the wings. Once the wings are in the desired position you push it back in half way to disengage the drive and rotate it back to a vertical position. Push it all the way back in and it snaps back into place.

    Very cool!:cool:cool:cool
     
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  21. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    3D printer arrived today! :D:D:D Prototyping costs are going down.

    RigidBot Big, dual head, heated bed, USB and LCD. Assembly required. Guess what I'll be doing for the next couple days.

    Project update: Manual mechanism described above is designed. Pictures coming by the end of the week.
     
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  22. usaeatt2

    usaeatt2 Member

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    If you haven't already, you might want to check out the offerings at Adafruit.
    They have a nice Audio FX board which can be upgraded with a power backpack and a Lipoly rechargable battery pack.
    I also contacted their R&D department a few weeks ago about offering a fiber optic lighting kit.

    http://www.adafruit.com/products/2210
     
  23. 5792z

    5792z New Member

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    For the 1:17 scale version does anyone have a model they could loan me to take measurements from?

    Where are you located?
     
  24. rbeach84

    rbeach84 Sr Member

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    Perhaps Hagoth can list his critical dimensions and someone could make those measurements for him, so to save on shipping a big 'thang' all over. Some disassembly is required obviously - perhaps someone already working on 'detailing' one is in the midst and can provide those measurements on the fly. Where is that search tool!

    Well could only find one! Rogue Trooper's thread (he has split the wings...) but he has progressed to the point that he may have already chopped things a bit.


    R/ Robert
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
  25. Haystack Hair

    Haystack Hair Sr Member

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    This is superb!! Beautiful engineering Hogarth. I'd love to have one of these to fit in the big Revell kit (is it 1:32?) as I've got plans for servos and lights for the one in my stash :D
     
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  26. Laspector

    Laspector Sr Member

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    If you are 3-d printing these parts, would it be possible to build the mechanism in different sizes for other different size x-wings?
     
  27. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    I believe Hagoth said he can. He just requires certain dimensions from the particular kit in question to upscale.
     
  28. danikin72

    danikin72 Active Member

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    I have 2, I have one that's been opened and one that's untouched.
    Let me know what measurements you need and I'll get them to you.
    Shoot me a pm and let's make this happen.:)
     
  29. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I've been silent for the week. Got hijacked with touching up the paint in our house and ended up painting the entire thing. :p

    Also got my printer built but I have a lot left to do to get it calibrated and printing.

    Thanks for the pointer, That looks very promising! I think it is even small enough to fit in a 1:48 scale. I'll have to figure out how to connect it up to Bluetooth.
     
  30. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    I'm in Spanish Fork, Utah. Anyone close by?
     
  31. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    I'd have to see what the inside of the toy looks like and then I could tell you what to measure. Anyone want to post images? We can keep them in this thread to have everything in one place for all these X-Wing mechanism projects.
     
  32. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Haystack! The way it is designed it is very easy to scale up. Is your 1:32 the Pro-Shop version or is there yet another scale of X-Wing out there? I have a loaner 1:35 Pro-Shop kit in hand as that is the next iteration of this mechanism. It will require a replacement of the motor that comes with it which is a clunky piece.
     
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  33. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Correct. I'm 3D printing the prototypes and depending on the interest level I will make molds for the different kits. If there is not enough interest to justify making molds then I am willing to do 3D printed prototypes at cost for those interested.
     
  34. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Deal. Can you post some images of the one that is opened up? I might be able to tell you what I need from the images. It is always better to have a kit in hand for fit perfection but I'm willing to try this long distance and see what we can do.

    As my third iteration is scheduled to be the 1:24 scale and it was to be a generic one I'll switch places with it and the 1:17 if I get agreed upon dimensions for it first.

    When I get a chance I'll try to post pictures of the dimensions that I needed for the 1:48 scale MPC just as an example. This might help as a guide for other scales. It might be a week but I can't hurry this as I'm still in the middle of the first iteration. Which by way of an update...

    The 1:48 manual drive mechanism through the servo hub on the back of the model is designed. The simulation works... so now to build the prototype. I'll post pictures as soon as I can now that I'm back on this project.

    Just so people know my time availability it could take 6 months to get through all these iterations.
     
  35. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    Here's some photos of the large 1/17 Hasbro ship I found in a couple other threads that may help.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  36. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Awesome! Thanks Junk Pilot! Now a picture of the top of the wing roots and the wings which is the other side of some of the parts in the pictures. Looks like the wings will go right through the body hard points at the front of the wing box. In the top picture it looks like they were mostly removed which is a good start. Custom fitting a new mount will be a little bit tricky to get the dimensions for. Might have to use the old cardboard cut out fit and trim trick to take dimensions.

    For a project like this who's afraid of a little bit of scratch building. Ok, a LOT of scratch building. :)
     
  37. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    Here's a better picture of the parts breakdown from RogueTroopers great thread. As you can see the wings clip onto the outside of the engines cans.

    [​IMG]

    As you can see the fuselage and wing/engine box is one piece.
     
  38. newmagrathea

    newmagrathea Sr Member

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    This is really cool. I wish you would have made it a year ago because I would have put it in the MPC X-wing that I just finished a while back. I totally agree that the MPC wing mechanism is crap, I wound up gluing mine in the open position because it bothered me so much. Keep up the good work.

    Just some thoughts. You could also make the R2 a button to open an close, but it would only really work if you have it motorized. Or use R2 as a way to hide the charging jack.
     
  39. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Junk Pilot, looks like I need to check out Rogurtroopers thread on this to get a better idea on what we have to work with. These are not what I would consider logical part configurations.

    Thanks Newmagrathea. Looks like you will need to build another MPC kit. :D Given that it is an official movie prop from ROTJ... :cool:D

    Later on I will be showing how I take my old original model and upgrade it with this mechanism and a manual drive through the servo hub on the back plate.

    Using R2 as a way to hide the charging jack... that is something to consider. Now If I can figure out a way to combine twisting R2's head as the on off power switch and his body as a cover for the power jack... He is an astromech after all. I've seen all those appendages that can stick out of him. How hard could it be?

    Voice in the back of my head... "He's barely 1/2" tall and you already cut off his head..."

    That's right I already cut off his head. Hmmm, I think I know how to do this. I might even be able to still keep his eye lit up. Thanks for the inspiration man!
     
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  40. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Ok, after several hijacks of my time I'm back on track.

    Here are the links to my progress on designing the manual mechanism for operating the wings through the servo hub on the back of the model. Any one of the links will allow you to scroll through the other images.

    Clutch parts - http://hagoth.wix.com/the-brass-ball#!Manual Clutch Parts/zoom/cjex/image_i36

    Parts installed - http://hagoth.wix.com/the-brass-ball#!Manual Clutch Parts/zoom/cjex/image_1o5i

    Interface with back plate and servo hub - http://hagoth.wix.com/the-brass-ball#!Manual Clutch Parts/zoom/cjex/image_1w0s

    Direct link to video showing operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyvSBYLBbtY There is a bonus feature revealed in the video. :)

    Parts are being printed (including a re-print of the messed up high resolution parts) so a complete physical prototype will be coming soon.

    Also I hope to post images soon showing what measurements are needed in general and for the Hasbro toy.
     
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  41. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Ha! It worked! I got the pictures to load up. These match the links above.

    The three clutch parts for the manual servo hub drive.
    Manual Clutch Parts.jpg

    Assembled on the mechanism.
    Clutch Housing.jpg

    With a place holder back plate and the servo hub installed.
    Wings Extended.jpg
     
  42. rbeach84

    rbeach84 Sr Member

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    Cool design! What is your production concept? Will you be using the same basic mechanism (scaled as needed) combined with unique adapter parts such as end plates designed for each application... or will each application be slightly different with fully integrated components? Because it seems there are two separate integration boundaries ('interfaces'), one being the mechanism to the mount and the other being the mount to the model. Given the mechanism provides exactly the same function regardless of scaling (assuming the included range runs from the AMT kit - not snap-tite - to the Hasbro 'toy'), it follows the design would remain unchanged except for the specific kit interfaces - presenting an opportunity to simplify the design problem by separating the two...

    Regards, Robert
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  43. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Thanks rbeach84. I had not planned on scaling up the manual drive option as it was to be for my original MPC model only. If there is enough interest ....

    You are correct that the interfaces with the different scales requires some tweaking both in mounting the mechanism and interfacing with the back. The basic concept stays the same regardless of the scale so the functionality does not change from scale to scale. The only one that will have to change is a potential design for a 1:72 scale which was not originally planned. It will not have a drive shaft and will work by opening the wings directly. Magnets will keep the wings either open or closed as it will no longer have the self locking feature but it will not wobble and the wings will be synchronized.

    What I have discovered (not unexpected) is that not all models even scale proportionately. For example the 1:35 Pro Shop has less room behind the mechanism than the 1:48 MPC. Hardly enough room to do a manual drive without some major revisions unless you can grab and turn something only 4 mm long. Also when scaled up to handle the wing thickness it is too long for the wing box so the bearings need to be thinner. Functionality still stays the same just proportioned a little differently. At any rate it looks like I still have to deal with unique mounting and interfacing with each scale.

    By way of a sneak update... I'm still waiting for some of the printed parts to do a complete unit but I have the clutch parts in hand and I must say they fit like a charm and perform just like the simulation. :D Pretty darn cool! :cool I'll post pictures of the entire unit when I have it.
     
  44. rbeach84

    rbeach84 Sr Member

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    RE: the short shaft clearance, what if you used a telescoping barrel sleeve to engage the shaft end? Also, what is the shaft rotation range going from open to closed (full range?) If 360, then you could incorporate the rear 'hatch' detail as the turn knob. To explain better, consider pulling the hatch (mounted on a telescoping sleeve shaft) out using the 'tank turret skirt' to pull on, then turning one rotation, then pushing it back in place. Or is this what you already have established?

    Alternative is to make the hatch detail a removable cover (magnets? friction fit?), and use something like a standard Allen (or Torx) wrench to engage the shaft... this may in fact be the easiest, all purpose solution for a manual drive for all applications.

    Sorry, don't mean to be 'up in your business' but rather just 'brainstorming' a bit (sounding board effect!) Hope no offense given by asking so many Q's....

    Regards, Robert
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  45. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Did you miss the video? What you described is exactly what I was trying to demonstrate there. :D The sliding clutch telescopes out through the back plate and engages the driver clutch mounted on the end of the drive shaft. The "hatch" or what I'm calling the servo hub is what you grab on to pull it out and turn to open the wings. It will turn between 180 - 210 degrees. Just having it pop off and using a flat head screwdriver is another option I considered but that just didn't seen to be cool enough. :lol Functional though as an alternate method of interaction.

    While I do have this pretty well thought out I do welcome and appreciate other ideas to make this work with all the different scales. Keep on asking questions.
     
  46. rbeach84

    rbeach84 Sr Member

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    Aye, watched it but missed that detail - duh! Obviously, to have the 'hatch' realign after the rotation would require some gearing to provide the correct ratio of 'spin' to 'open angle'... but your comment about the tight quarters at the back end got me thinking about alternatives to turning that shaft directly. Hence, my idea of removing the hatch detail & using a 'driver' tool to affect the movement, it simplifies the design a bit.

    So, to clarify, the clutch allows you to disengage the shaft and then realign the hatch? If so, very elegant!

    Regards, Robert
     
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  47. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Correct. The two clutch plates allow everything to stay assembled using the parts of the model itself and engage the drive shaft to open or close the wings and then disengage to realign the hatch.

    You idea to have the hatch simply be removable is attractive just for the added simplicity to open more options to people. However, either way I'm finding that separating the hatch from the back plate (using the kit part) is not an easy task. My original thought of scanning it (or otherwise duplicating it) and separating the pieces in the computer and then 3D printing them seems a better way to go.
     
  48. rbeach84

    rbeach84 Sr Member

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    Though, that will make things a bit more complicated; suppose you could master parts for serial production in resin.
    R/ Robert
     
  49. Hagoth

    Hagoth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the 3D printing would be to get the masters of the parts for casting.

    I'm doing the 3D printing from the computer model to keep every thing lined up and the tolerances consistant. Turns out they are quite critical and might need to be loosened up a bit on the manual manipulation system.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  50. rbeach84

    rbeach84 Sr Member

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    Your choice of casting resin will then be somewhat critical since you'd want to use something with an acceptable (i.e., within spec tolerance) degree of shrinkage. You may need to actually research the casting material a bit and factor the shrinkage in since you have a part and a hole to worry about, so could double the shrink "error"... you don't want it to get *too* sloppy a fit. Perhaps you could design the bearing surface (a step?) of the 'hatch'-to-hole parts in the plane of the back plate, plus a little extra depth to the hatch's shaft hole to allow for forward & back fit adjustment. Or am I visualizing this incorrectly? In any case, I'm certain I'm not telling anything new (at least to you!)

    Regards, Robert
     

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