Profiles in History-Hollywood PRIME COAs

[SciFiMuseum]

Was wondering if anyone purchased anything from Profiles in History on ebay recently, their new division PIH Hollywood PRIME "issues" an electronic COA through your e-mail. What do you all think about receiving a COA as a PDF file? When I asked them if they could send a physical signed COA through the mail, my reply was that they are a green, paperless company. The auction I won didn't state that it would be issued like this. How do you think it will affect the industry, reselling, and proving authenticity when you have a COA that is essentially a copy to begin with? I know they don't issue COAs with their live auction items unless you request it. I am not quite sure I like the idea of an electronic COA myself, what do you all think about it?

 

[Art Andrews]

Was wondering if anyone purchased anything from Profiles in History on ebay recently, their new division PIH Hollywood PRIME "issues" an electronic COA through your e-mail. What do you all think about receiving a COA as a PDF file? When I asked them if they could send a physical signed COA through the mail, my reply was that they are a green, paperless company. The auction I won didn't state that it would be issued like this. How do you think it will affect the industry, reselling, and proving authenticity when you have a COA that is essentially a copy to begin with? I know they don't issue COAs with their live auction items unless you request it. I am not quite sure I like the idea of an electronic COA myself, what do you all think about it?

That is very interesting.

As odd as it seems, I think this is a good move. Why? Because the truth is (and we all know it), COAs are all but worthless. I know some people cling to them like they prove something, but any of us who have been in this hobby for even a skinny minute, know they aren't worth the paper they are printed on. We all also know that they can and are forged and faked all the time, or simply created by people who have no desire/ability to back them. With that being said, I would actually prefer digital copies to this stack of papers and cards I have.

I am sure this will ruffle feathers in the original prop collecting community, but the sooner we all accept that COAs are worthless anyway, the better. If this is what it takes for us to make that first step, than I am all for it.

 

[SciFiMuseum]

Thanks for your input Art and you make a good point. We own literally thousands of COAs/LOAs, we feel we do need to keep as good a records as we can to prove that our items are indeed authentic to the best of our knowledge if challenged. Of course we do research before buying anything, compare to screen shots and known sold examples, or behind the scene photos-yes COAs are 'worthless' in the sense they can be faked (along with the items they represent) but they also provide a clue to the items history, who has had it, who sold it, basically a trail to where it came from before you owned it. Some people are not going to buy an item that has a digital COA unless it becomes the norm. But the biggest problem is that if your files disappear off your computer or get erased from e-mail then you have no proof at all. You are correct that it takes up a lot of room to have paper COAs/LOAs though.

 

[Art Andrews]

Thanks for your input Art and you make a good point. We own literally thousands of COAs/LOAs, we feel we do need to keep as good a records as we can to prove that our items are indeed authentic to the best of our knowledge if challenged. Of course we do research before buying anything, compare to screen shots and known sold examples, or behind the scene photos-yes COAs are 'worthless' in the sense they can be faked (along with the items they represent) but they also provide a clue to the items history, who has had it, who sold it, basically a trail to where it came from before you owned it. Some people are not going to buy an item that has a digital COA unless it becomes the norm. But the biggest problem is that if your files disappear off your computer or get erased from e-mail then you have no proof at all. You are correct that it takes up a lot of room to have paper COAs/LOAs though.

Well now, you do have a good point there. We recently bought a piece that has certainly made the rounds. It passed through Prop Store, Screen Used and Black Sparrow before coming to us! We managed to get two of the three COA's for it from previous sales. I suppose those do help provide a history for the piece as it has moved through our midst and honestly, I hadn't given that much thought.

My biggest issue with COAs is when you go to sell an item and people want a COA with the item and some will even consider NOT buying an item without a COA. I have never let a COA convince me to buy a prop or not buy one and in the overall scheme of things I don't feel they add to the value of the item at all. As an example, I got in on the first round of 300 spartans from Prop Store. Prop Store got to hand pick them from Warner Brothers and it was a HUGE deal in the community that those costumes had Warner Brothers COAs. It was even marketed as a selling point. At the time, only Prop Store was offering those pieces and we paid a premium for them. Well... a few months later the market got flooded by lesser sellers and the value of those costumes went right into the dirt and have never recovered even though the flood of pieces from other sellers didn't have a Warner Brothers COA. Sadly, I have seen some of the Prop Store 300 costumes resold for less than half what we originally paid. The uniqueness and "protection" of having the Warner Brothers COA didn't help them retain their value at all, which to me makes those COAs all but worthless. With that being said, I want to be clear, that isn't Prop Store's fault at all. It just is how things go in this hobby.

 

[SciFiMuseum]

I agree Art. They do not make the item more valuable but some people will not buy unless they have one. We recently sold something from the Star Trek experience that the person was upset didn't have paperwork with it. I told them it came directly from a person that worked there and nothing from STTE had them unless it was sold through a company that bought items in bulk and issued one themselves. Another problem is with props that have been replicated a lot. We own original screen-used props that are iconic in nature and have been mass duplicated before, in that case a COA is imperative. BTW love your new Payton uniform!

 

[DeathAngel]

I'm new to orginial prop collecting. So please correct me if I'm wrong. I've heard time and time again that "COAs aren't worth the paper they're printed on"... but would COAs issued from such places as Propstore and Screenused count for something?

When you buy from these places, the pieces are gauranteed to be authentic. So the COA basically says: "The accompanying prop came directly from the PropStore of london, since Propstore is a legit prophouse that works directly withn the film industry you know this piece to be the real deal. And as such the piece is protected for a lifetime."

So in other words, compare two props, one with a Propstore COA, and one bought of Ebay with a COA from somewhere you've never heard of. Wouldn't then the COA be an important part of the prop?

 

[Wes R]

That is very interesting.

As odd as it seems, I think this is a good move. Why? Because the truth is (and we all know it), COAs are all but worthless. I know some people cling to them like they prove something, but any of us who have been in this hobby for even a skinny minute, know they aren't worth the paper they are printed on. We all also know that they can and are forged and faked all the time, or simply created by people who have no desire/ability to back them. With that being said, I would actually prefer digital copies to this stack of papers and cards I have.

I am sure this will ruffle feathers in the original prop collecting community, but the sooner we all accept that COAs are worthless anyway, the better. If this is what it takes for us to make that first step, than I am all for it.

I was that way with my comics until i realized they were worthless and someone was just making money issueing them, some group at the con was selling them and putting them into a database but without a pic of you getting it signed personally they're worthless.

 

[Art Andrews]

So in other words, compare two props, one with a Propstore COA, and one bought of Ebay with a COA from somewhere you've never heard of. Wouldn't then the COA be an important part of the prop?

It is different for different people. As SciFiMuseum pointed out, some people are hesitant to buy a piece without a CoA. However, I don't buy my pieces as an investment (although I do get upset when they lose value like the spartan). I buy them because I love the movie or the piece itself and I usually do enough research that I know what I am buying, so a CoA is of little value to me. Beyond that, there are so many stories that I could tell you that you would never want to buy an "original prop" ever; stories of stunt props being converted to hero. Props having missing pieces added to them to make them complete, even though the additions were production made. All of these have a CoA...

 

[Nidgit]

I'm new to orginial prop collecting. So please correct me if I'm wrong. I've heard time and time again that "COAs aren't worth the paper they're printed on"... but would COAs issued from such places as Propstore and Screenused count for something?

When you buy from these places, the pieces are gauranteed to be authentic. So the COA basically says: "The accompanying prop came directly from the PropStore of london, since Propstore is a legit prophouse that works directly withn the film industry you know this piece to be the real deal. And as such the piece is protected for a lifetime."

So in other words, compare two props, one with a Propstore COA, and one bought of Ebay with a COA from somewhere you've never heard of. Wouldn't then the COA be an important part of the prop?

I agree (in part). When I buy from the Propstore, I feel confident I'm getting the real deal and I like to get my little orange envelope with COA enclosed. So I hope Propstore don't decide to go digital. Having said that, the confidence I get is actually buying from the Propstore. Not the COA so much.

But I have a question on Art's post too. Is anyone aware of Propstore COA's being forged. 99% of my original props I bought direct from them, but I have made the occasional second hand purchase with what I believe is an original COA ?

 

[Art Andrews]

But I have a question on Art's post too. Is anyone aware of Propstore COA's being forged. 99% of my original props I bought direct from them, but I have made the occasional second hand purchase with what I believe is an original COA ?

I can't say they haven't been forged, but I have never seen it or even heard of it happening. Prop Store is my go-to company, but, like you, not for their COA's but for the company itself. I still do my homework, but Prop Store (and Screen Used) stand as my most trusted supplier. I can't speak on their behalf, but I believe Stephen and Co would make a situation right, COA or no COA.

 

[Apollo]

Sounds cheap to me but anyone with any skin in the game knows COA's are for newbies and poseurs

 

[skyball]

Sounds good, agree with Art, COA is worthless.I for one feel we should advocate for a bit of history regarding the piece. With propstore it is like trying to pull teeth, I am not saying to know the name of where you bought it but certainly a touch of history would be nice. Like where the prop was for the last ten or in a recent purchases case 30 years. Was it a private collectiin, was it in the studio vaults....anything. That information could be written and passed on to the next colllector should you sell or swop a piece. i have noticed Profiles are amongst the only ones that put something like that in their descriptions.

 

[The Prop Stop]

When I asked them if they could send a physical signed COA through the mail, my reply was that they are a green, paperless company.

SAYYYYYYY whattttttt!!!!!!!!!

In seriousness.......this is probably the most loopy thing I've heard this week. Been a loopy month.

 

[Art Andrews]

Not to defend Prop Store, but I could understand a bit why they might be hesitant to share much history strictly from a business POV. Their business lives and dies by the contacts they have and the people they know who supply them props. If they shared very much, people could simply cut Prop Store out of the picture and go right to the source.

Sounds good, agree with Art, COA is worthless.I for one feel we should advocate for a bit of history regarding the piece. With propstore it is like trying to pull teeth, I am not saying to know the name of where you bought it but certainly a touch of history would be nice. Like where the prop was for the last ten or in a recent purchases case 30 years. Was it a private collectiin, was it in the studio vaults....anything. That information could be written and passed on to the next colllector should you sell or swop a piece. i have noticed Profiles are amongst the only ones that put something like that in their descriptions.

 

[skyball]

ART i understand that and agree whole heartdly. Im not meaning specifics but a little background. To a degree the beauty of the piece at least for me is the journey that piece took, since you saw it on screen till it is in your hands is oure magic. I recently bought a piece from my favourite film Conan, being it is a thirty year old movie. I enquired as to a touch of it's history.......crickets, I also said I did not wish for names clearly but maybe bought from a cast member/ crew member, private collector. i mean aside from the history behind it, knowing where that prop had been till it found your way into your hands. it might also help the validity of the prop, i mean when after 30 years nothing then suddenly these props start appearing it makes you wonder and at the price they are sold for, re assurance is everything.

 

[Rik1138]

With regards to PIH, the COAs are largely worthless (as has been mentioned). Even when you get their 'LOA' by request from their live auctions, all you get is a piece of paper saying 'This prop was purchased at a Profiles in History auction.' It's not guaranteeing _ANY_ authenticity, it's just guaranteeing that it was sold by them. They've sold fakes before, so having a COA from them doesn't mean you have an authentic item (i.e., do your own research).

Propstore, Screen Used (and Propworx when they do auctions) are ones people can put stock in because they will at least refund your money if something is proved to be fake, but even those (with the possible exception of Propworx that tagged both the prop and the COA with a hologram sticker) can be falsely attributed with a prop. If _YOU_ buy something from them, and have the COA, then the COA is as good as gold to you. You know the company will make good if it's ever determined to be 'not what it appears'.

But what's to stop someone from buying a real, screen-used prop from a respected dealer, then selling a very good replica _with_ the COA from said dealer for the same price. The new buyer would likely never know unless they could prove the new item was fake. If they then contact the dealer, and the dealer compares the item to their photographs, they'll know exactly what happened and you are still out of luck (unless you can convince the person you bought it from to refund your money, which is unlikely considering they knew what they were doing in the first place).

If you buy from someone that you know you will be able to track down in 10 years, and they give you a COA that says they will guarantee the item forever, then it's worth having. (Of course, if the person dies or the company shuts down, then you are again, out of luck...) Otherwise, no, they are largely worthless, even from respected dealers if you are buying second hand. You just don't know what has been done to either the COA or the prop after it's left the respected seller...

I've posted this around, not sure if I put it here, but it's a great read:
How Self-Appointed Experts Sullied the Billion-Dollar Autograph Industry | Features | Los Angeles | Los Angeles News and Events | LA Weekly
It's about the autograph industry, but a lot of the principles can apply here as well. And it sums up the problem of COAs and the gullibility of the general (and even not-so-general) public:

"It doesn't have to be authentic," Gonzales says. "It just has to be authenticated."

People can put more stock/value into a piece of paper that says 'this is real!' than just looking at the thing itself...
There was a case of someone selling a signed Star Wars action figure (I think it was a Cushing autograph on a Tarkin figure) that the seller swore he had proof was signed by the actor (a COA, a photo of the seller with the actor (but not the figure), something like that) but the signature just didn't look right. I think it actually got listed in an auction catalog because, hey, it has a COA right? (Auction houses just don't care, they'll list anything) Then someone finally pointed out that the figure in question was released in 1998 or so... Cushing died in 1994. That shut the seller up pretty quick, and immediately put into question everything he had ever sold....

As a buyer- Forgot the COA, do your own research... Any seller can make a mistake (some honest, some not-so-honest), you want to get all the info/history/details you can before you give up any money.

 

[skyball]

Rik1138

great post, well written and above all well said.

 

[Apollo]

Kind of hard to do with propworx since they went bankrupt.

They also got caught misrepresenting some of their items as well

Propworx when they do auctions) are ones people can put stock in because they will at least refund your money if something is proved to be fake, but even those (with the possible exception of Propworx that tagged both the prop and the COA with a hologram sticker) can be falsely attributed with a prop. If _YOU_ buy something from them, and have the COA, then the COA is as good as gold to you. You know the company will make good if it's ever determined to be 'not what it appears'.

 

[Rik1138]

Kind of hard to do with propworx since they went bankrupt.

Bankruptcy can mean re-organization, not just the disappearance of the company. The company is still around, they still conduct auctions online, and the owner if it is a member of this forum.

And even I mentioned that if a company does go completely out of business, then it makes things harder, and likely impossible. If Profiles in History where to shut down, do you think the COAs/LOAs would mean anything anymore? Who would you contact about something they sold later proved to be fake?

Simply put- The value of COA depends _entirely_ on the issuer still be around to listen to a complaint. Once they are no longer around, the COAs are worthless like all the others. COAs from movie studios aren't worth much either, since I can pretty much guarantee that the person that signed them no longer works there (or in that department) after about a year, and I really don't see any studio refunding any money or doing anything 'to make it right' if you somehow got stiffed...

They also got caught misrepresenting some of their items as well

That wouldn't surprise me.... I never said any of those companies were perfect... I'd bet there's not a single prop seller around that hasn't sold something that wasn't quite what it appeared to be (at least, one that deals in a lot of merchandise)... The point is, these companies will do what's necessary to make it right if you have the actual item they sold and it's been made clear it wasn't what they said it was. I'm sure Propworx would still honor their COAs if something was proved to be fake. It still doesn't negate anything I said in my post.

The point of this thread is the value of COAs, period. I gave some examples, and examples of how they can be corrupted. This isn't a discussion about any one company (and, if it is, that company is PIH per the OP), please don't turn it into a thread complaining about individual companies. I simply don't care what problems you may have had with any company or it's owner. Talk to _THEM_ if that's the case, or start your own thread. If you are just referring to past history, we've all heard it before, it's old news, and doesn't need to be re-iterated here. (But you should always do your own research, don't just rely on COAs or descriptions given to you by _anyone_. Take it into account, sure, but don't blindly follow anyone into a purchase.)

Another interesting story I've heard from a propmaker was where an executive producer demanded a screen-used prop from his recent film (apparently he was kind of a jerk the whole time they were working on it). The propmaker essentially took a commercial replica, and dressed it up like the screen-used ones and sent that to him. Now, out there somewhere, is a prop in the hands of an Exec Producer (iron-clad provenance you'd think,right?), and it's a fake. And no one knows but one person that doesn't even follow auctions/sales, so he'd never even know if it was sold.

Or the Rosemary's Baby necklace recently pulled from a Juliens auction apparently consigned by the actress that wore it herself. It was clearly a replica made by someone online, and I think the actress stated she carried it home from the set, and doesn't know how it's now a replica. Assuming she's telling the truth, someone might have actually stolen the original from her and replaced it with the replica, but it's likely we will never know the truth about that one...

There's just so many stories that can throw doubt on nearly anything that sometimes it comes down to just trusting your gut... If you can't 100% screen match it, or you, PERSONALLY, didn't remove it from the set, you can never _prove_ it's exactly what it's being claimed to be. It's always just someone's word, and how much you trust them.

 

[Apollo]

No, no he is not.

Actually he is banned from this forum.

The end of your post I totally agree with.

Coa's are worthless, they are for newbies and Poseurs! :lol

Bankruptcy can mean re-organization, not just the disappearance of the company. The company is still around, they still conduct auctions online, and the owner if it is a member of this forum.

If you can't 100% screen match it, or you, PERSONALLY, didn't remove it from the set, you can never _prove_ it's exactly what it's being claimed to be. It's always just someone's word, and how much you trust them.