Please help! Need ref pics of "RED 5" (ILM model)

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STEVE THE SWEDE

Sr Member
With a CC X-wing on it's way I've been starting to go over in my head which version I should paint it like. Since I'm a very boring man
my first choice was Luke's fighter.

BIG problem! I've been able to find alot of ref pics of all the others but not a singel one of "red 5". So please, if you have any good pics of ILM's studio model post them here.
I don't need pics of the over sized ROTJ version, just the regular one built for ANH.

Thanks,

Steve.
 

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autoprops713

Well-Known Member
Steve,

If you're getting a CD with your kit...you'll have your reference. Trust me.

There are a few pics in the Chronicles book also.

Dave
 

STEVE THE SWEDE

Sr Member
Yes, I'm getting the CD/DVD (at least I think it's included), however, I'm affraid my old DVD player won't accept home made discs. I've not been able to find any pics of "Red 5" in the chronicles, or are my eyes playing tricks with me!?

Steve.
 

autoprops713

Well-Known Member
Steve,

The reference photos (which are the best so far I've seen) are on the CD package, not digital.

You sure the Chronicles book has no pics? I remember seeing somewhere a 3/4 upper rear shot...and a slight bottom view. Of course the pics are dark as hell for "Lucas Mystery" but they help. I also found some screen caps on line...I'll email you those.

Dave
 

STEVE THE SWEDE

Sr Member
I got the e-mail, thanks alot man! I never seen the one with the black back ground before. I totally forgot about the archive picture, that one is indeed in Chronicles book.

Thanks!


Steve.
 

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Barnstormer

Well-Known Member
Is the CC reference material available without the model? I am looking for reference material to finish the Fine Molds X-wing.
 

spinner 44

Well-Known Member
The Argonauts kit box of the Z-wing has the back 3/4 pic but bigger (4 times) , in case you have the kit.

It seems that contrary to was speculated, the Red 5 model was not lost, but transformed into a Red 4 miniature. You may want to check the big pic in the big ILM book where Lucas stands with all the models and creatures. Check the dirt and colors on the Red 4 model seen, they are exactly the same as the Red 5 ones.

Sergio
 

autoprops713

Well-Known Member
Sergio,

I'll agree with that. If you look carefully you can see that the weathered "smears" match up right on. There also seems to be some grey areas that just happen to be where the 5th red stripe would have gone.

So the next question should be, does anyone have any more reference photos of Red 4?

Dave
 

STEVE THE SWEDE

Sr Member
And why did they transform it into Red 4? Makes no sense to me, but I still agree with you.

Also, does anybody know why they built the big ass X-wing for ROTJ!? I can't remember any close up's in that one that would need such a large model. I think that one was painted up like Red 3, but it still features R2-D2.

Steve.
 

autoprops713

Well-Known Member
That big one doesn't make any sense to me either. Is it supposed to be Red 5 re-done? Again looking at the color scheme and panel colors it looks very similar to the New Hope Red 5.

For extra paint detailing I actually used the ref. pics from this model (there are so many out there) to finish up my CC X-wing.

Dave
 

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Treadwell

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Actually there are indeed a few very close X-Wing flybys in ROTJ.

Interesting about Red 4. I wonder if the pyro version was the only one, and after it was destroyed (its remnants can be viewed at Disney World) they realized they needed another shot of it and so there went the fifth stripe on Red 5. If anyone would like my pics of the pyro leftovers LMK.

Oh, what the hell: "me, too" on the ref pics! Can never have enough.
 

Miniaturizer Ray

Well-Known Member
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Treadwell wrote:
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Interesting about Red 4. I wonder if the pyro version was the only one, and after it was destroyed (its remnants can be viewed at Disney World) they realized they needed another shot of it and so there went the fifth stripe on Red 5. </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

Doesn't seem likely. Remember that Red 5 still has all of its stripes in the pictures that come with the Captain Cardboard kit, and those pictures were apparently taken by a Revell (I think) employee, when Revell(?) were after the model kit license - this would presumably be after the effects photography for STAR WARS was completed.

Also, as we all know, most of the model shots in STAR WARS don't correspond with the "correct" ship - Red 5 and Red 1 appear as all sorts of different ships. The reason for this is that they never really succeeded in getting the Dykstraflex camera to work the way that it was designed to. Lucas asked Fox for more money to perfect the system and complete the effects photography, but they only gave him half of what he asked for, so they had to do the best they could with that (this is also the reason that the ships - as seen in the movie - don't have the yellow markings that we can see on the miniatures. I can explain why if anybody's interested, but it's a bit technical).

The missing stripe Red 5 only shows up in that picture with Lucas (unless somebody can spot it in EMPIRE or JEDI; I haven't). It's a mystery.
 

Treadwell

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Ah, interesting about the licensee photography (don't have the CC kit).

I always presumed the appearance of "wrong" fighters was due to changes during editing. "We need a ship zigging left then rolling right...ah, here's a shot. What? Wrong number of stripes? Who cares?"

Would be interested in the yellow explanation.
 

STEVE THE SWEDE

Sr Member
Please explain!
I love war stories! The yellow "nose" stripe has me confused, looks like some dudes only mark this with a light "rusty weathering" on their kits while still others paints it like a color field like the red markings on the side. What's correct? The ref pics I've seen so far doesn't prove either way.

Steve.
 

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Miniaturizer Ray

Well-Known Member
Okay, this could get very long-winded...

In the pre-digital era, many different methods were tried for creating "travelling mattes" (the composite effects that are now usually known as "bluescreen" or "greenscreen" shots)

If you photograph your subject in front of a coloured screen, then you can use a combination of colour filtration and exposure timing to derive an image wherby the background - the screen - appears white and the subject appears black. This high contrast black and white image can then be used as a mask, or matte. You expose the background footage onto fresh filmstock through this mask, so that you have the background photography with a "black hole" where the foreground subject will appear, and then you use a negative of the matte to expose your subject into the black hole, producing a composite image.

The trouble is, to produce the high-contrast matte, you have to control the exposure time so that the various shades of grey in the image all become either black or white.

If you photograph a moving object, then, because the object moves during exposure, it appears blurred ("motion blur"), and the edges of the object appear soft, and the background is visible through them.

When you derive a high-contrast matte from the image, the soft edges disappear, and you get those "matte lines" that we've all seen (matte lines are also caused by other factors, such as the fact that film stock always shrinks and warps by a small, but unpredictable, amount when it's developed, which is why you sometimes see matte lines even when objects aren't moving).

One attempt to fix this problem (which was developed, I think, for MARY POPPINS) is the "Sodium Vapour method", which I'll get back to.

When Lucas was asking around about how he could achieve the effects that he wanted, the experts told him it was impossible. The fast moving ships that he wanted to show were nearly all motion blur, and significant matte lines would be unavoidable. John Dykstra, who had worked with Doug Trumbull, heard about what Lucas wanted, and had an idea.

Dykstra had worked on a project using computers to move cameras around architectural models - an attempt to produce the kind of "walk-throughs" that are nowadays created using CGI.

Dykstra's idea was this: If you controlled every aspect of the photography with a computer, you'd have shots which could be precisely repeated, as many times as neccesary. You could therefore photograph a lit model in front of a black background, and then repeat the shot exactly, but with the model unilluminated, against a white background. The result would be a silhouette of the model which could be directly used as a matte. You wouldn't need to adjust the contrast of the image, so you'd keep the soft edges, and eliminate the matte lines.

In practice, they didn't get it to work. The light from the background spilled onto the models, creating holes in the matte. Or the images were overexposed, washing out the soft edges just as if they'd increased the contrast afterwards. Or the mechanism wasn't precise enough to reproduce exactly the same move more than once, so you'd get a nice soft matte, but it would wobble around the subject. In the end, most of the shots were created using the aforementioned Sodium Vapour method (multiple pass exposures were still used for some shots, but not for matte creation - in the non-SE version of the movie, watch, for example, the engine glows of the X-wings, and see how they wobble around a bit, as mentioned above).

The way that the Sodium Vapour method works:

The background is a pure blue screen. Sodium Vapour lamps (the kind that's sometimes used for street lighting) don't emit any blue-wavelength light. If you illuminate your models with Sodium Vapour lighting, then the blue record of the photographed image will show a black subject against a bright background, which you can use as a matte. The method isn't perfect - you'll still need to alter the contrast of the image to a certain extent.

And there's a major drawback: The photographed subject will have a distinct orange-yellow cast, which will need to be corrected, by mixing some of the red and green records into the blue record at the colour timing stage.

Photographically speaking, a white surface that's illuminated by yellow light looks the same as a yellow surface that's illuminated by a yellow light, so when they eliminated the yellow cast from the X-wing photography, they also eliminated the yellow markings.
 

Treadwell

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Cool post!

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>in the non-SE version of the movie, watch, for example, the engine glows of the X-wings, and see how they wobble around a bit, as mentioned above). </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

I was just looking at that shot again recently, and noticed the red glow is perfect on all except one X-Wing. The steady ones look like the light bulbs that they were, but the wobbly ones look like a 2D graphic imperfectly animated over the composite. They must've neglected to do an engine light pass on that one ship.
 

Miniaturizer Ray

Well-Known Member
I don't think so. If it wasn't a photographed element, why not just make it a bright fuzzy disc, the same as all the other engines look? Also, watch how the perspective changes on the central "tube" part of the heatsink:
 

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