PIH Selling Another "Original" Luke ANH Hilt

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by H0llyw00d, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. H0llyw00d

    H0llyw00d Sr Member

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    Blockbuster Hollywood Treasures

    Looks like they're cranking these out about every six months or so. I wonder if another Ripleys museum will choose to believe this one is authentic as well...
     
  2. PropReplicator2

    PropReplicator2 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm sure someone will buy it much like how ainsworth pedaled his trooper armor for years.. sick.. absolutely sick..
     
  3. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Hey it has to be legit if PIH is selling it!:rolleyes:
     
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  4. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    again!? I wonder how many have to be out there for people to realize they can't all be the original lightsaber. It's hilarious to me that so far, most likely none of them are
     
  5. kalkamel

    kalkamel Sr Member

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  6. AJK001

    AJK001 Sr Member

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    Its like back in the day with the Mark English Phasers and Communicators that everyone thought were real, they even fooled a few experts. Some of them are still being auctioned as real even though 99.99% of the people know they are not and for the most part the auction houses perpetuate the fraud but not doing their do diligence.
     
  7. corliss1

    corliss1 Active Member

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    I also thought all the original props were returned since there wasn't necessarily an original plan for more movies. From what I've seen before there is no "original" luke/obi-wan saber because they got returned to the prop company.
     
  8. TheUnchosenOne

    TheUnchosenOne Member

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    And even for ESB and RotJ, they didn't exactly keep track of the props very well. Vader's ESB saber eventually turned up in a RotJ exhibit (probably because the same prop was used as the hero for both, but to my knowledge that hasn't been actually confirmed); Luke's ESB only exists as the Ranch Saber, which was never on screen as it exists now; the V3 was "restored" to make it look like the Hero for display; and the V2 was thought lost until what, 2015?

    Basically, the only lightsabers we know were screen-used in more or less the shape they exist in today are Vader's ESB/RotJ hero, the DV6, V2, and V3. And even the V3 doesn't look like it did on-screen.

    While I believe it's totally possible Roger Christian kept an original ANH saber in his private collection for the last 40 years, I'm extremely skeptical he actually did, given his comments over the years. I guess he could have also misplaced it somewhere and only recently found it, but i just seems more likely that he built a replica and is just better at it than Kurtz was.
     
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  9. Serenity

    Serenity Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  10. Zombie Killer

    Zombie Killer Sr Member

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    lol.. Hamills avatar looks like Luke smoking a joint.....OK childish comments off !! Im suprised we dont see Macrobinoculars show up for sale.....
     
  11. CWOODREPLICAS

    CWOODREPLICAS Member

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    Now you mention it, I actually have a set of Lukeskywalker's original macrobinoculars. Ive had them in storage this whole time and only now decided that they're the original ones. Very legitimate.









    ish...
     
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  12. Zombie Killer

    Zombie Killer Sr Member

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    Will you take $10k for it? I can send a paypal ASAP…..as a gift to save you fees..... your on the internet so you must be legit.
    Milifatty.jpg
     
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  13. CWOODREPLICAS

    CWOODREPLICAS Member

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    To add my two pence on all this - In many ways its just a scam, some poor person will buy it but its as real as mine sitting on my desk next to me. Just because it came from the same box doesn't make it the article. Heck - they were all made in the same factory, does that mean all our sabers are the actual prop? No. Only what was seen IN THE FILM, captured BY THE CAMERA is legitimate.
     
  14. Title

    Title Active Member

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    sIxUiya.png

    Roger responded lol
     
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  15. Zombie Killer

    Zombie Killer Sr Member

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    Whats a grafter?
     
  16. H0llyw00d

    H0llyw00d Sr Member

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    Hamill/Christian Twitter feud... epic... :)
     
  17. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Saving this screen cap for sure
    And roger changes the story again.. he has never said 5 before... I destinctly remembered him saying he built 3... one of which was the stunt graflex... but god only knows

    And now he says he built these in his office.. he’s been on record saying and I know this for a fact. He built these in his friends shop.. and they grabbed random screws and D rings out of his friends tool box to attach the D ring..

    Now he built these all in his office... and there was 5? He’s found a new way to make a living.. NOT cool at all...
     
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  18. Serenity

    Serenity Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm guessing autocorrect changed "Graflex" to "grafter" instead.
     
  19. CatfoodRob

    CatfoodRob Well-Known Member

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    I'm not even sure superglue was readily available in 1976 .
    A two part epoxy called " araldite" was the new big thing back then in the uk . That's what most of the blaster greeblies were held on with .. and why most of them fell off during filming lol.
     
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  20. Zombie Killer

    Zombie Killer Sr Member

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    Superglue was made during WW2
     
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  21. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I honestly think I remember roger commenting once “I mixed up some super glue and held the grips on with that”

    Maybe it was that 2 part epoxy and Roger just calls it super glue?
     
  22. TheUnchosenOne

    TheUnchosenOne Member

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    "Super Glue," like Kleenex, is a brand name that has become a common name. While there are plenty of holes in his stories about these over the years, I'm not sure using the term "super glue" in 2018 as opposed to "2-part epoxy" or "Insert Actual Brand Name Here" or whatever is one of them
     
  23. Zombie Killer

    Zombie Killer Sr Member

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    Its just easier to say and spell then Cyanoacrylate
     
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  24. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well looks like Roger is just trying to cash in like a few before him have...
     
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  25. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    You know, the special effects team never put a dowel into a Graflex as far as we know. They installed a motor into those tube-things for ANH.

    ESB and ROTJ... still working out what they used, but still. nice to hear about the squishy foam handles we see on the ESB Making of book.
     
  26. scarf man

    scarf man Sr Member

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    I agree.
     
  27. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I know! i seems mark is very adamant that the grips were changed because they hurt his hands so much. hes said this now multiple times. i wonder if thats the reason why the grips are missing on the stunt in the archives today. maybe decomposed and fell off?
     
  28. Dann

    Dann Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Man, I was afraid Roger Christian was gonna do this. After that first one, and the questionable backstory with the storage unit full of Graflex flashes, blah blah etc etc and the story continually changing (he had new t tracks made ((riiiigght, he bought the replicas we all use)) and then suddenly he has vintage track and bubbles).

    I suppose it's not unheard of, but it's a little weird to me that a Set Decorator would be designing and building props in the first place. I work with Set Decorators all the time, and Set Dec is not the same department as Props, or prop FX shop. Still, I suppose the story that he came up with the Graflex lightsaber idea had been around for quite some time, so it's totally possible.

    Anyway, I don't believe for one second that what he's offering up for auction is anything more special than the replicas we have all made over the years, and he's not even assembling them the way they were assembled back then! That D-ring placement is just awful looking.

    So we've got a Hollywood Set Decorator, who likely doesn't have to worry much about money, trying to pull a fast one and sell a lie to some unfortunate fan. I think Roger Christian should be ashamed.
     
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  29. JMSupp

    JMSupp Active Member

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    Based on Christian's AMAs, I have a hard time thinking this one is legit. It looks good... almost too good. Is it possible that the Set Decorator happened to have several identical lightsabers? Absolutely. I just have a hard time with the thought of having one that conforms EXACTLY to the hero suddenly showing up years later, seemingly out of the blue. Possible. I am wary, especially since there are some great build guides... and good repro parts easily available.

    The thing is, how many people who have the money to buy this are really doing a deep dive and learning all the nuances of lightsabers? Most are going to take the auction house description and go on that. The fact that it came from the Set Decorator only makes it SEEM more legit.

    The Gary Kurtz / Don Bies saber still sold quite well, both times it sold. I suspect that the buyers bought the auction description, and didn't check out places like this, or other forums and groups. It's not surprising, really, that a buyer wouldn't take the time to do more research. Most tend to trust that the auction house had done it's due diligence. In general PIH, who sell tons of original props, do a decent job with most of their stock, and have removed questionable items in the past, so I think it's reasonable for a buyer trust them.

    Fortunately, there are places like this and others that have the drive and knowledge to to suss out the crazy details! I'm interested to see if any more information comes out about this particular saber.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  30. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This crap needs to stop.. it’s become disgusting...
     
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  31. JMSupp

    JMSupp Active Member

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    When $150k or more is at stake, I can see why people would feel the temptation of the Dark Side. In other areas of collectibles, people have done far more work for much smaller returns.

    The ease at which a Graflex can be made into a lightsaber is astonishing. even using mostly original parts. Replica parts are there, the research on parts is already done... just a few hundred dollars and a few hours, and you can have one that is almost identical to the hero prop. There aren't many props that I can think of that have that rate of return... if you can get someone to buy the story.
     
  32. laellee

    laellee Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wonder how many high-end collectors have found out privately that they were in fact duped, and just sat on the info? I can imagine after spending so much money, if there's no recourse to get the money back, it's easier for some to just keep quiet and keep displaying/whatever rather than swallowing their pride and saying 'yup I got taken'.
     
  33. ALLEY

    ALLEY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The speculation regarding provenance has got me thinking about the history of the V2.

    If I was to offer speculation as to who the keeper of the V2 was—-prior to it’s current ownership by Brandon—I would speculate that it was producer Howard Kazanjian.

    He seemed to have somewhat recognized the value of these things—at least from a sentimental standpoint—and had kept more than a few prop items for his personal collection. He would have also been in a position, during ROTJ, to have acquired the prop after its use in filming in Yuma.

    I hope someday that we hear the actual story of the prop and how it ended up where it is today.
     
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  34. JMSupp

    JMSupp Active Member

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    Laellee, in my experience, it seems to depend on the market. In the militaria market, there seem to be plenty of people willing to to dupe someone else to unload a piece they now know is fake. That is mostly among the older crowd, it seems, but it seems to happen there more then anywhere else. With the internet, that has gotten much harder, thank goodness.

    In the art world, people will spend tens of thousands of dollars to try to have their paintings or prints deemed authentic, even if they have good reason to expect they have a fake. This can go on for years, in the hopes that they can recoup their losses. A lot of pieces disappear into the woodwork for years, decades even, only to show up again, in the hopes that the next generation of authorities will re-examine the piece, and call them good.

    Prop collecting is still a fairly recent phenomenon, and because it has such a narrow nostalgia window, holding onto it for a few decades is probably not a good move. Look at what happened with one of the Kurtz/Bies sabers. If I remember right, it sold for $200k and change, to Paul Allen, or at least his museum. 5 odd years later, it show up again, sells for $400k to Ripley's. (Correction: Not the same lightsaber, but both were from Kurtz, according to SethS.) Smart move if you have something of questionable or no history...

    Right now, it seems that the market consensus is that a lightsaber from someone who is in a position to have likely acquired a production made saber is at least $150-250k. Regardless of how "original" the parts or, or if it was even screen used. Can you imagine what one that had rock solid provenance would go for?

    After a bit more research, and some thinking, I'd honestly expect that an absolutely authentic saber would sell for more then the Ripley's, but not by a tremendous amount. That end of the market is pretty small, I imagine, and has been burned before. They're probably wary... if not, they should be!

    Edited for correction. Thanks SethS!
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  35. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    The Paul Allen one and the Ripley's one are separate. But both are from Kurtz.
     
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  36. indignate

    indignate New Member

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    Jason DeBord has made a phenomenal video about it. I recommend you to see it.

    I guess if Profiles will see it. I think they know it has doubts, they are just trusting a key crew member in the movie. But, thats is not enough.

     
  37. indignate

    indignate New Member

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    31871728_10.jpg 31871728_11.jpg I cannot believe Christian screwed up even his LOA. The lightsaber he shows in the photos of the Profiles LOA, to say its original, ITS NOT EVEN THE SABER CONSIGNED IN PROFILES! ITS THE recognized REPLICA!

    You will see how the bubbles grip is in different position.
     
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  38. David3

    David3 Active Member

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    So the saber seen in this photo (I assume is the one that had the dowel or rod fitted for the fx shot) has the graflex clamp with the bubble strip positioned on top instead of to the left or right (?). If you watch the movie frame by frame you can see the switch in configuration. I didn't think that was possible because of how the top and bottom halves lock into it. No relevance to the one at auction but interesting to note.
    31871728_6.jpg
     
  39. matty matt

    matty matt Sr Member

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    Exactly. Some people might not even want to know. And in a case like the Ripley's saber, it doesn't even matter to them if it's real or not. They're paying for the story and the publicity around it.
     
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  40. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Correct that is the original graflex stunt. Made out of a aluminum tube.

    Check out Seth’s lightsaber guide book for more details
     
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  41. David3

    David3 Active Member

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    Oh, right, not a graflex just a tube to look the part. I should have noticed there's no bunny ears either.
     
  42. JMSupp

    JMSupp Active Member

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    Thanks for the correction! Is there any real idea how many lightsabers with Kurtz provenance are out there?

    Also, in your guide, which is awesome BTW, you mention in the "Holiday Special" section that the ANH hero saber was stripped of it's parts and returned to the prop house. Do you have a source for that? I can't seem to find it, though I'm probably overlooking something.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  43. dcarty

    dcarty Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Hi Seth. The Paul Allen Graflex and the Ripley's Graflex are the same piece from Gary Kurtz. I've been looking back through the auction catalogs and the auction description that Ripley's won cites the provenance as the Paul Allen auction. Here's a screen cap:

    Screenshot 2018-12-06 13.03.25.png
     
  44. Dann

    Dann Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Side note: Does ANYONE have a source for that taller, straight-profile, reddish brownish T Track???!!!!

    I know there's some like it out there, I have a small section of a piece, but it's black.

    Heck, I'd be alright with black, as long as it has the correct profile!!
     
  45. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    Last I'd heard, Ripley was still displaying theirs, and I saw the one at the EMP in Seattle last year.

    They look the same. We're assuming Don Bies did the detail work post ROTJ as they have similar t-track Dann is noticing that all the post ROTJ Vader promo sabers had.

    Don's been asked about both the Kurtz sabers and that t-track but he hasn't said much.
     
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  46. SethS

    SethS Master Member

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    Kurtz did what Christian is doing now-- I want to say there were three or four but I can't co firm that as the same ones have been up for auction multiple times.

    The only way I know Ripley's and Paul Allen's are different is because they are both currently on display.

    As for the ANH hero being broken down-- no proof, just conjecture given that a fair amount of props from the movie were sold back and/or restored to what they were before. It was an assumption made simply because no ANH Graflex saber was ever seen again after the movie wrapped. So it's not definitive, and obviously dorsn't jive with what Christian is saying these days.
     
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  47. H0llyw00d

    H0llyw00d Sr Member

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    Last I heard kalkamel still had some of SaberFreak 's vintage tracks.

    Are these the vintage T-tracks we've been looking for?
     
  48. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This seriously upsets me.. really no freak’n morals... at all
     
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  49. dcarty

    dcarty Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That's interesting, I wasn't aware that they were both on display concurrently! I had assumed the attribution was for the specific prop rather than referring to the source of the prop -- Gary Kurtz. I stand corrected :)
     
  50. kalkamel

    kalkamel Sr Member

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    I had a few rolls of Saberfreak's track but sold them, even gave one to Roger Christian when he came to Malaysia. The vintage t-tracks I currently carry are the ones I found last year. They have a slimmer taller profile and they're brown.
    rps20170920_024143.jpg
    Vintage Brown T-tracks #2-02.jpg
     

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