PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction / Vader Helmet Discussion
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Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Well actually since 1999 :angel, but anyway I took what you meant as that unless someone had the original ANH they could not comment on what was accurate. I didn't see the discussion as going in that direction as what was at issue I believe was whether this auction helmet could have been an additional helmet not seen onscreen as there was the question of how many pulls came out of the original mold, and Brian has kindly answered that question before.
Of course it doesn't hurt to have a nice helmet at least for research purposes... :lol (just kidding)
Seriously though, there are many different ways to assess whether something might be authentic or original. From what I've been told and from the way it looks, it seems reasonable that this helmet came from Don Post Studios back in the day, but that is only what is claimed. Could it be one of the original ANHs that were reworked and refinished? Sure it is a possibility, but the fact that it has tells of something that came from a mold known to have been taken off the original ANH helmet, along with the account by the consignor that it came from SDS, which is simply not the case since SDS never worked on Vader, suggests otherwise. Those two lines of discrepancy on their own rule it out as being original, making issues like how it could have been cleaned up or modified or finished just secondary.
So then it becomes more a question of whether this helmet is a missing link between the screen original and the helmets thought to originate from a Don Post source.
Well actually since 1999 :angel, but anyway I took what you meant as that unless someone had the original ANH they could not comment on what was accurate. I didn't see the discussion as going in that direction as what was at issue I believe was whether this auction helmet could have been an additional helmet not seen onscreen as there was the question of how many pulls came out of the original mold, and Brian has kindly answered that question before.
Of course it doesn't hurt to have a nice helmet at least for research purposes... :lol (just kidding)
Seriously though, there are many different ways to assess whether something might be authentic or original. From what I've been told and from the way it looks, it seems reasonable that this helmet came from Don Post Studios back in the day, but that is only what is claimed. Could it be one of the original ANHs that were reworked and refinished? Sure it is a possibility, but the fact that it has tells of something that came from a mold known to have been taken off the original ANH helmet, along with the account by the consignor that it came from SDS, which is simply not the case since SDS never worked on Vader, suggests otherwise. Those two lines of discrepancy on their own rule it out as being original, making issues like how it could have been cleaned up or modified or finished just secondary.
So then it becomes more a question of whether this helmet is a missing link between the screen original and the helmets thought to originate from a Don Post source.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Oh, and way back when I used to be a fan of the GH ANH (used to own the master)...
Compared to the DJ ANH...
Compared to the screen helmet...
The mask compared to a TD ANH copy...
To me at least it still has a secure place in the lineage from the original ANH...
Oh, and way back when I used to be a fan of the GH ANH (used to own the master)...
Compared to the DJ ANH...
Compared to the screen helmet...
The mask compared to a TD ANH copy...
To me at least it still has a secure place in the lineage from the original ANH...
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
I know this thread has lost it's way and really needs to get back on track but as I'm being addressed on here I would like to thank the members of this and other forums for their appreciation of my contributions to the boards.
I'm happy to share any knowledge I have personally or that I can obtain from anyone I know who worked on the Productions and will not be deterred by people whose only form of arguement is aggression.
Hopefully this will get back on track.................................
I know this thread has lost it's way and really needs to get back on track but as I'm being addressed on here I would like to thank the members of this and other forums for their appreciation of my contributions to the boards.
I'm happy to share any knowledge I have personally or that I can obtain from anyone I know who worked on the Productions and will not be deterred by people whose only form of arguement is aggression.
Hopefully this will get back on track.................................
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
There were 2 helmets that were on stage on the production (looked after by John Berkinshaw - dresser/wardrobe assistant -nicknamed 'Mother') that were locked away in a box every night. This can be verified by myself and John Mollo the wardrobe designer.
(Incidentally the box was wheeled onto the stage and then off the stage at the end of shooting each day)
Just to add to this statement another person who verified this is Ron Beck the wardrobe supervisor on A New Hope (there are several production photos of him in existence) who has a very credible portfolio. He was my neighbour for over 20 years and we had many ' Star Wars' conversations. When I moved from the area 4 years ago, he was a very smart and spritely octogenarian
There were 2 helmets that were on stage on the production (looked after by John Berkinshaw - dresser/wardrobe assistant -nicknamed 'Mother') that were locked away in a box every night. This can be verified by myself and John Mollo the wardrobe designer.
(Incidentally the box was wheeled onto the stage and then off the stage at the end of shooting each day)
Just to add to this statement another person who verified this is Ron Beck the wardrobe supervisor on A New Hope (there are several production photos of him in existence) who has a very credible portfolio. He was my neighbour for over 20 years and we had many ' Star Wars' conversations. When I moved from the area 4 years ago, he was a very smart and spritely octogenarian
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vaderdarth
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Sithlord, if the comparison of the DP and SL helmets is scaled correctly and I believe they are, that dome is tiny on the DP. That is all the proof I need that the dome is a fan made dome. If it has any true lineage then it is likely the Fyberdine precursor. Even that is a stretch unless that dome was completely resculpted. The dome looks more and more like a late late generation GH dome that was once again recast. The face on the other hand has a good size to it. But it isn't from the same source as that dome in my opinion. If the face is from an original source like claimed, they just added the first "vader" dome they could find to complete it. Likely an SPFX or other recast of a GH. Just my opinion based on this one comparison.
Dave
Sithlord, if the comparison of the DP and SL helmets is scaled correctly and I believe they are, that dome is tiny on the DP. That is all the proof I need that the dome is a fan made dome. If it has any true lineage then it is likely the Fyberdine precursor. Even that is a stretch unless that dome was completely resculpted. The dome looks more and more like a late late generation GH dome that was once again recast. The face on the other hand has a good size to it. But it isn't from the same source as that dome in my opinion. If the face is from an original source like claimed, they just added the first "vader" dome they could find to complete it. Likely an SPFX or other recast of a GH. Just my opinion based on this one comparison.
Dave
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Although I do agree with Dave and Thomas on the alterartions of the dome, I wanted to show this comp in reference to how focal length and dome positioning can make a difference. Seeing this side by side, the PIH dome doesn't look as bad. I do believe the dome may have been from an early version GH/Jeff syle similar to what Dave eluded to. Perhaps even the father of those.
If you have issues with it Thomas, I'll remove the comp since I am using your own pics of the SL.
Although I do agree with Dave and Thomas on the alterartions of the dome, I wanted to show this comp in reference to how focal length and dome positioning can make a difference. Seeing this side by side, the PIH dome doesn't look as bad. I do believe the dome may have been from an early version GH/Jeff syle similar to what Dave eluded to. Perhaps even the father of those.
If you have issues with it Thomas, I'll remove the comp since I am using your own pics of the SL.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
You hit the nail on the head there lambotour. Mverta showed us a superb animated gif that he put together using 3d software to illustrate just how alarming the proportions of something can be distorted due differences in focal length, distance of object from lens, type of lens used etc, etc. All these "side by side" comparisons are really inconclusive unless someone can take a picture of both helmets at the same place using the same equipment at the same angle and same camera / lens. I don't trust any comparison that is done with anything other than what is described above.
Rogue Studios got what many consider to be the ultimate Fett helmet casting but in the ebay pics, it looked WAY off due to the way it was photographed. Only when he had the helmet in hand was it revealed to be something special.
This PIH helmet certainly doesn't look like anything screen used or directly cast from a screen used, but comments about size cannot be backed up without physical measurement comparisons.
Just my opinion.
Chris
You hit the nail on the head there lambotour. Mverta showed us a superb animated gif that he put together using 3d software to illustrate just how alarming the proportions of something can be distorted due differences in focal length, distance of object from lens, type of lens used etc, etc. All these "side by side" comparisons are really inconclusive unless someone can take a picture of both helmets at the same place using the same equipment at the same angle and same camera / lens. I don't trust any comparison that is done with anything other than what is described above.
Rogue Studios got what many consider to be the ultimate Fett helmet casting but in the ebay pics, it looked WAY off due to the way it was photographed. Only when he had the helmet in hand was it revealed to be something special.
This PIH helmet certainly doesn't look like anything screen used or directly cast from a screen used, but comments about size cannot be backed up without physical measurement comparisons.
Just my opinion.
Chris
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Doesn't an SPFX dome look MUCH more accurate than the one on the DP ANH? Plus, Pete posted a great comparison shot showing how the focal length of the image makes a huge difference. The similarities between Thomas' helmet and the DP ANH are much more "there" in the second set of images.Likely an SPFX or other recast of a GH. Just my opinion based on this one comparison.
Dave
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
I had SWC make this for me a while back using the DJ and the DK. Hope it's okay to use those photos, otherwise, let me know.
Just to illustrate some of the structural differences between an accurate style helmet and the GH/Fyberdyne family. Since the DP master may have come from the Rick Baker mold, this comparison makes sense, since the DJ also came from that mold - however, came out slightly different, mainly concerning the shape of the neck (resembling how the ESB Poster Helmet looks more than the SL and this PIH). The comparison was done mostly on emphasis on the differences in the face mask as the domes are positioned differently, hence they appear more different in shape to each other in the comparison than they might actually be.
Is this the animation gif being talked about showing focal length issues?
Also, I think Fatherless One posted these pictures once. Hope it's okay to post them here - same helmet photographed at different distances and zoom:
I had SWC make this for me a while back using the DJ and the DK. Hope it's okay to use those photos, otherwise, let me know.
Just to illustrate some of the structural differences between an accurate style helmet and the GH/Fyberdyne family. Since the DP master may have come from the Rick Baker mold, this comparison makes sense, since the DJ also came from that mold - however, came out slightly different, mainly concerning the shape of the neck (resembling how the ESB Poster Helmet looks more than the SL and this PIH). The comparison was done mostly on emphasis on the differences in the face mask as the domes are positioned differently, hence they appear more different in shape to each other in the comparison than they might actually be.
Is this the animation gif being talked about showing focal length issues?
Also, I think Fatherless One posted these pictures once. Hope it's okay to post them here - same helmet photographed at different distances and zoom:
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vaderdarth
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Let me clarify my comments, when I talk of size, I am referring to the section of the facemask and how it fills out on each side of the dome. If you look at an SL/TD/DJ etc... the edges of the eyes almost completely match up with the dome contours on the outside which they should. This dome and face are more consistent with a GH/FD helmet in that respect or the resultant recasts thereof. Hope that makes sense. And yes some of the recasts turned out alot more accurate than what is seen on this PIH deal.
Dave
Let me clarify my comments, when I talk of size, I am referring to the section of the facemask and how it fills out on each side of the dome. If you look at an SL/TD/DJ etc... the edges of the eyes almost completely match up with the dome contours on the outside which they should. This dome and face are more consistent with a GH/FD helmet in that respect or the resultant recasts thereof. Hope that makes sense. And yes some of the recasts turned out alot more accurate than what is seen on this PIH deal.
Dave
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
I certainly see what you mean about it having some traits with the GH/Fyberdyne family line, but it's in no way as extreme as it is in those later casts, but it is interesting to see a transition point between original and that line of helmets, where it is still somewhat resembling the original more than the later supposed casts from it that were even further altered/refined from the original look.
I certainly see what you mean about it having some traits with the GH/Fyberdyne family line, but it's in no way as extreme as it is in those later casts, but it is interesting to see a transition point between original and that line of helmets, where it is still somewhat resembling the original more than the later supposed casts from it that were even further altered/refined from the original look.
vaderdarth
Master Member
I can agree with that TMG. Does seem more like a missing link so to speak. And do keep in mind that this is my own speculation based on a single photo. Not conclusive in any respect. I won't pretend to be a know all blathering "expert". It's just an opinion.
KevVader
Sr Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
This last comp really illustrates the issue clearly....looks like 2 completely different helmets.
Also, I think Fatherless One posted these pictures once. Hope it's okay to post them here - same helmet photographed at different distances and zoom:
This last comp really illustrates the issue clearly....looks like 2 completely different helmets.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Guys,
Be you Iron Man fans or Vader fans, why do you suppose I've been raving like a lunatic to standardize on a minimum 6 foot distance when photographing your helmets?
Be you Iron Man fans or Vader fans, why do you suppose I've been raving like a lunatic to standardize on a minimum 6 foot distance when photographing your helmets?
EvilRocketeer
Master Member
thats how i photograph my helmets...i stand a few feet back to get a better picture of the shape of the helmet....that is one of the reasons i am not a fan of photographic evidence/ screen captures to prove a point because the same item can give off different distortions...
fyi, i changed the thread title..The origin of the vader helmet does play a big part into the PIH helmet...
fyi, i changed the thread title..The origin of the vader helmet does play a big part into the PIH helmet...
I don't think, at least in the case of my own comparison, this is really an issue in regard to distance, because if you've photographed helmets as much as I have from different distances, you can judge distance based on the amount of distortion in the mask. I matched the view of the SL ANH as best as I could judge not just based on angle, but on distance. For every angle I have of the SL ANH, I have about four or five different distances that I compare as well. I also know that shooting closer makes the crown of the dome look smaller, similarly if the dome is tilted back more in the rear, the crown looks smaller. By the way, shooting closer makes the neck shorter as well with respect to the face (and the mouth triangle looks proportionally larger). I take that all into account as I have photos of the SL ANH with slightly different dome tilts as well. I can also take the PIH dome in my mind and tilt it in the rear back a bit so it sits like on the SL ANH and I can see how the flaring edges are more symmetrical...the lengths are very similar unlike on the SL ANH dome. I don't think the PIH is just a reworked GH/Jeff/Fyberdyne dome, but it isn't original either, and that symmetry in the flaring length is not like the original. It won't be a perfect comparison but based on my experience photographing my own helmets I think I got it pretty close...thankfully the PIH image was not taken that close either as would be standard for photography of auction material.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Yes, so the bottom image of the SL ANH was photographed much closer and you can clearly see the distortion of the face that isn't seen in the photo comparison I first showed. But even in this image I can tell that on Vader's right side of the PIH dome flaring that front edge is shorter than it should be.
Nice to see you keeping my old pics.
Yes, so the bottom image of the SL ANH was photographed much closer and you can clearly see the distortion of the face that isn't seen in the photo comparison I first showed. But even in this image I can tell that on Vader's right side of the PIH dome flaring that front edge is shorter than it should be.
Nice to see you keeping my old pics.
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