PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction / Vader Helmet Discussion

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

There were 2 helmets that were on stage on the production (looked after by John Berkinshaw - dresser/wardrobe assistant -nicknamed 'Mother') that were locked away in a box every night. This can be verified by myself and John Mollo the wardrobe designer.

Thanks, Brian, so since you had mentioned before there were three (or perhaps even four?) pulls from the original mold, would you then be specifically aware of one or two extra pulls that were not kept on set as backup (perhaps not finished either?). I just wanted to clarify the numbers here.
 
Well there were a couple of times I had to clear out my photo host and that was regrettable to me as well. Part of it is that I have so many images that even accessing the host itself can, over time, become problematic (ie: very slow). But for important ones I have tried to repopulate them with the images. If there's one you want to see repopulated let me know. Of course I could always start new threads (yes I know...please don't, hehe). :wacko
 
Does anyone else notice how Vader's right side of the mouth dips in on the DP mask more like a GH/FD helmet? The screen mask is more straight in that area much like the DJ/TD/SL masks.
 
If you look at the inside front edge of the right side of the mouth triangle you will notice that it is straight, but the outside edge is taken in, which makes sense since that whole side of the mouth triangle has an irregular surface on the original but is sanded down on the GH/Jeff/Fyberdyne style. But ya the auction mask has that same feature as well as a similar chin vent. But the U-shaped part of the nose isn't like a GH/Jeff style, more like the original. The eye corners are more like GH/Jeff style. It really is a mix.
 
In case anyone noticed, the PIH Vader mask has the mounting tab holes drilled out. In fact, one of the holes is in the same shape as the corresponding hole impression on masks taken from the Baker/ILM mold. In other words, those impressions on the original mask were filled in a certain way when the Baker/ILM mold was taken. Yet on this mask they were drilled out in a way to match the shape of those filled hole impressions. Masks from an earlier source in the UK have slightly different profiles to those filled holes. So again it is pretty obvious to me where this auction mask came from, the Baker/ILM mold, and so it simply cannot be original.
 
The point I'm trying to make is that just because someone was involved with the production doesn't mean you should just take their word as gold.
Think of all the instances in the past where people of Brian's status made some pretty silly claims according to what we know to be true.
And I'm not saying that Brian doesn't have a lot of really great insight/info that is factual. But it's the mindset of "he can't be wrong" that I don't agree with.

Likewise you cant take somebody like yourself who wasn't involved with production info as gold.

Of course when it comes to your "secret sources" who are allegedly connected with LFL or worked on the movies give you info the same standard doesn't apply does it ?
Then you can be sure the info is kosher.

You cant really state your information is any more reliable than anyone elses but you always do.
 
In case anyone noticed, the PIH Vader mask has the mounting tab holes drilled out. In fact, one of the holes is in the same shape as the corresponding hole impression on masks taken from the Baker/ILM mold. In other words, those impressions on the original mask were filled in a certain way when the Baker/ILM mold was taken. Yet on this mask they were drilled out in a way to match the shape of those filled hole impressions. Masks from an earlier source in the UK have slightly different profiles to those filled holes. So again it is pretty obvious to me where this auction mask came from, the Baker/ILM mold, and so it simply cannot be original.
Just wondering... where did you see better pictures of the top of the PIH face mask?
 
Actually it is just the same image that is shown in the auction...I haven't been able to get any additional images unfortunately.

Anyway, here's what I meant...

PIHvsILtabhole1c.jpg
 
OK,

So what am I missing?

The mold Rick Baker made was on a production made helmet , yes?
Not screen used but production made from the same mold as the screen used one.

This has a hole where the subsequent castings (GH and all the rest in the Don Post tree)indicate there was a hole on the one Baker molded where the tab was removed.

The dip in the cleanup of the neck is where subsequent castings in the Don Post helmet family tree indicate there was a dip.

Why couldn't this be the production made casting sent for molding that created these "tells" in the first place?

Just asking...
 
OK,

I don't mean to sound thick but how do we KNOW it was THE helmet and not simply a production cast?

Did Rick Baker mold a painted helmet?

Just asking...
 
OK,

So what am I missing?

The mold Rick Baker made was on a production made helmet , yes?
Not screen used but production made from the same mold as the screen used one.

This has a hole where the subsequent castings (GH and all the rest in the Don Post tree)indicate there was a hole on the one Baker molded where the tab was removed.

The dip in the cleanup of the neck is where subsequent castings in the Don Post helmet family tree indicate there was a dip.

Why couldn't this be the production made casting sent for molding that created these "tells" in the first place?

Just asking...


As Carsten indicated the Baker/ILM mold was taken off the original screen helmet, which was of course painted at the time. This knowledge, which both Darth Jones and myself related before, is based on three accounts of people who worked for ILM and saw the Lucasfilm mold in person, including our own Darth Jones, who used to work for ILM and who has a copy from that mold. Also my own casting from that mold has innumerable tells specific to the original ANH helmet...even paint-specific tells. This has also been born out by what eFX has described their master helmet as coming from, namely the same mold, and eFX also indicates it was Rick Baker that made took the mold off the original screen-used ANH helmet.

There are no holes on the Don Post derivative castings, nor even impressions of holes, which is not surprising since the holes were filled in prior to molding of the original ANH mask by Rick Baker, and subsequent Don Post derivatives are so cleaned up as that detail on the top of the filled holes is essentially gone.

The GH/Jeff/Fyberdyne masks don't have that small indentation on Vader's left side of the neck edge. There might be a tiny hint of it left over on the GH ANH master, but that just supports the idea that the auction helmet is a Don Post helmet, not an original.

Below is a comparison of the GH ANH master mask, which I used to own, the PIH mask and a poor Fyberdyne pull. The indentation on the neck is much more pronounced on the PIH mask, just as you see on the SL ANH. This indentation is not seen on the original ANH mask, and is particular to masks taken from the Baker/ILM mold.

You will also notice that the teeth width and teeth gap width are nearly identical on the auction mask to the GH ANH master mask, and this is not a coincidence. But they are not accurate to the original ANH, but specific to the Don Post lineage, again supported this is a Don Post mask, not an original ANH mask. Sure they could have modified a production original, but the auction specifically claims this is a screen-used original ANH and that's impossible because we have strong indication that it survived mostly intact through ESB and ROTJ, not to mention the claim about the source of this auction helmet not holding water, namely coming from SDS.

GHvsFyberdynevsPIH2.jpg
 
Here's more evidence that the PIH mask is from the Baker/ILM mold. Masks from that mold have the tusk tube undercut filled in with specific details on the fill. I show below one such area on both the PIH auction mask and the SL ANH which itself comes from the same mold. You'll note areas indicated by the boxes where there is a ridge defining the boundary of the undercut fill that is characteristic of pulls from the Baker/ILM mold. This ridge detail is seen on the auction mask although to a lesser extent (as is the case with all detail on the auction mask being somewhat reduced or limited). The original ANH mask would not at the time of Don Post have this fill (nor did it) because the fill was temporary. It was added just at the time Rick Baker took the mold off it, for whatever reason.

PIHANHtubefillvsSL1c.jpg


One could argue well if the helmet really came from SDS in the UK after Rick took the mold off, why wouldn't it still have the undercut fill and why wouldn't this be that original mask? The simple answer is the photos taken of the mask at that time when Kermit tried it on at DP studios clearly indicate that there was no such fill. And in fact the color photos we've seen of Kermit in the costume show some residue of the fill (the white material) inside the tusk tube undercut. And further to that we see in photos taken later on during the early tour (the Corbis photos) that also the original mask does not have filled undercut. Once the original helmet got into Kermit's hands it stayed there for the duration of his tour. That's why this auction makes no sense because the claim implies that the helmet went to Don Post studios and stayed there, and it didn't. It went with Kermit not just for a couple months but for years.

So it helps to have something from the same mold to make determinations like this and to know something of the history of the original ANH helmet.

.....time to go eat some more penne all'arrabiata
 
Thank you for taking the time to explain your stance.
I appreciate it.

Granted after the the fiasco that was SDS, anything coming from that direction is tainted to say the least.

The recollections of folks that were there and can account for the helmet along the journey to Don Post and back also carries a huge weight with me.

I agree, having a clean casting from the Baker/ILM mold to compare the filled in area of this mask makes a compelling argument. If the same filled undercut marks are present on it, then it would seem it is a later casting than production.

I stress "the same" because in casting an area like that it would easily create a bubble on the casting which would need to be puttied in .I have no doubt Rick Baker filled areas like this just because casting it cleanly would be a pain. Also saves the wear and tear on the mold.
So just to say it was filled doesn't mean anything. Every casting is going to be slightly different.
"The same" is a different story.

Thanks again!
Chuck...
 
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