pepakura ethics (or is it ok to make moulds/bucks from pep files?)

i dont see pep making as recasting. its no different from using norm gagon's plans for building a proton pack before stefan's came out.

they are readily available. they are free. you build them yourself. you can modify them yourself.

the problem i would have is the recaster arguement. if anything i think this is the one part of the prop replica hobby that wouldnt have recasting, because no piece is going to be the same, even if it comes from the same file, and if there were recasting, it would be if someone sold their project, and someone else cast that and sold it. there should be more people like neon sentry, making files for fun and available to everyone, and sticking it to people that want to make money. the same could go for a prop builder, norm gagon's one of my heroes because he was the first that i know of to make proton pack plans free.
he could have sold use of them. neither he nor stefan have recieved a dime to my knowledge for putting up their free proton pack plans that people use to build their own, sell casts of and point a recasting finger at people.

as far as im concerned, a pep file isnt any different from a plan/blueprint.

for selling, i can imagine someone making something like an armor, get bored with it, and want to sell it to recoup costs and pay for a project they are excited in. i can also see them claiming ownership of the project because they put the physical labor and materials into making it happen. i dont imagine someone getting pep files and starting an assembly line. it looks like there's too much work in it to get one right, let alone spend triple the amount to make casts of it to sell. i know that if i had a choice between buying an armor of iron man for 1000 bucks, or building my own for a fraction, the choice im going to make isnt rocket science. im sorry it appears your armor wasnt because you like iron man, but because you wanted to make money and my little "make my own for cheap" mantra hurts your business.

If they wanted to recast to make a quick buck then they would be better off simply doing it the old fashioned way; if they wanted a costume for themselves and possibly to make some money off of then they would be better off simply downloading the existing Pep files and going from there and if there's anything they felt was lacking they could simply fix after they've Bondo'd the glassed Pep model.

this. in any event, who are you tmp to say "i have an authority on the internet and prop making"? save that for people like delusional ben king on gbfans. people are going to do what they want. they'll make stuff to cast to sell. they'll buy from recasters (especially if its cheaper). they'll sell recasted things. sad fact of life.

its like some people, even that master le guy with his "secret" want to have the prettiest dress at the prom and other people that have to shop off the rack get called knock off wearers. its a hobby. when you make money off your hobby it becomes a job.
 
TMP, your armor is amazing but I've got to side with others on this PEP debate. If I were to follow your line of reasoning then I can't use a measuring tape or caliper to determine dimensions of an item. A 3D modeling program only automates what is done with these tools. If I were to take some movie pics of an armor and start taking measurements and then use a calculator to work out the scaling to the desire size and then use clay to mold the armor to those dimensions then I have done the same as what pepakura does.

Along with Pepakura you have your Bondo to work out the final shape. This is no different than molding clay onto a mannequin before molding it.

TMP, I am a big fan of your suits but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.:confused
 
OH BOY... :D aleast we got a debate going. Allot of good valid points.

To clarify... I explained my self wrong. plain and simple... I dont se Pep as recast! Period. I explain it here but i could not since it does not allowe colors to the text.

My main intent was I wanted guidelines to the board to protect the artists who provide this board all the fantastic props even the pepakura makers as well as sculptural. Today the pep world is pretty revolutionary to thep replica prop, but it does not have ANY guidelines.. THIS is what i want to clarify and bring discussion of.

Regarding tracelineing. The Warmachine is a perfect example of not curved lines, but square lines. The Sideshow photos contributed allot fo have the Warmachine files so fast finished. Again i dont doubt there is work to it, but seeing the swift and efficient process of how it can be made it makes me also worry.
pepakura.jpg

Without having guidelines of rules now we will wait with sculpting any new creations unitll the board i am member of also can have guidelines similar to sculptural work / recast as in the details of RPF describe.

I dont even se why there is so much debate against guidelines. Its there to guide the members of right and wrong.
Its so ironic because on weekly basis we got issues of recast of sculptural work. When i raise the question it is counterd by if i belive i own the ironman... OF COURSE NOT!.. Never said so... Yes we sculpted it from photos by vissual reffrence. And again i DONT doubt there is ALLOT of work involved in pepwork.

How can we ensure good guidelines for pepakura made armor.. Can anyone recast these because the files originaly are free? Is this ok... What guidelines do we have on these?? THIS is what i tried to explain...

Dont understand the argument of me not raising questions of wanting GUIDELINES...
 
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I think everyone's covered this PEP debate from all angles. I think it's time to move on to world peace and just say "pep pep horray"!
 
This sounds to be more about control than anything else.

So if siwdat creates the rules of conduct around IM props does that mean I am exempt from those rules since I refuse to ever be a part of that community?
And isn't siwdat your forum, TMP? You reference it like you're just a member but isn't it your brainchild? And as a result aren't these 'rules' simply ones you came up with to satisfy your own agenda? Sorry but you don't get to make the rules on this. You need to learn to let go.
 
This sounds to be more about control than anything else.

So if siwdat creates the rules of conduct around IM props does that mean I am exempt from those rules since I refuse to ever be a part of that community?
And isn't siwdat your forum, TMP? You reference it like you're just a member but isn't it your brainchild? And as a result aren't these 'rules' simply ones you came up with to satisfy your own agenda? Sorry but you don't get to make the rules on this. You need to learn to let go.

Well said... Well said... I try to stay outta politics like that but it does seem like sideways or what ever it is has become a promotional item here on the RPF...
 
This sounds to be more about control than anything else.

So if siwdat creates the rules of conduct around IM props does that mean I am exempt from those rules since I refuse to ever be a part of that community?
And isn't siwdat your forum, TMP? You reference it like you're just a member but isn't it your brainchild? And as a result aren't these 'rules' simply ones you came up with to satisfy your own agenda? Sorry but you don't get to make the rules on this. You need to learn to let go.

I think your just beeing silly now. All forums got guidelines. Even this one... That was to open awareness of the forums guidelines even on this board. If you go to the siwdat page you get the guidelines there... I tried to explain them but they got twisted arround. Probalby my own fault for building up the text wrong. Nothing in SIWDAT say negative about Pepakura..


THIS IS WHAT I TRIED TO WRITE BUT I MESSED THE BUILDING UP OF THE TEXT SO WRONG IT GOT UNDERSTOOD WRONG.
COPY OF SIWDAT RULES... NOWERE DOES IT SAY PEPAKURA IS RECAST.. I NEVER SAID IT IS.. I WANTED DEBATE ABOUT CONSTRUCTIVE GUIDELINES TO PROTECT BOTH PEPAKURA WORK AND SCULPTURE WORK.... WITHOUT THESE GUIDELINES ANYONE CAN COPY LIKE FOR INSTANT STEALTH, FINHEADS, TMP ARMOR AND NOTHING ON THAT BOARD CAN ENFORCE IT RIGHT DUE TO LACK OF GUIDELINES... ...


Selling/trading of recast items
Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community. Selling freely distributed paper props is considered a digital form of recasting. This includes Pepakura files.

The term Recast falls into category if the piece has been:
A. Directly recast of original licensed piece or Original fanmade art.
B. Retooled and modified prop over an existing licensed piece or fanmade art.

Recast falls into category when a Pepakura prop that already had been modified, finished, cleaned and detailed has been recast directly of the piece, or modified.
Pepakura files public available for download does not go in under this category IF the maker can show progress photos of the assembly and finish of the Pepakura armor.


Fanmade falls in under the category if the piece has:
A. Been sculpted by hand from scratch.
B. Assembled by hand from scratch.

Category: Private collection, Fanmade VS Recast:
Any alteration, improvement, re-sculpting of existing prop counts as recast if the piece is moulded and replicated. If the alteration, improvement or re-sculpting is for personal improvement of personal collection this does not go in under the category of recast.
NOTE! The instant the piece is offered for sale or numerous pieces moulded, cast and then sold this will result in permanent Bann and public announcement warning.

SIWDAT values artistic creativity, but not for people to steal other members hard work. The time and efforts put into a piece shall be respected and honoured by members at all time. Any suspicion of intent of recast will result in immediate temporarily suspension and strike. The sculptor/ maker have to prove sculptural progress photos of their original work. If this can not be provided and proved guilty of recasting the member will be permanently banned and public announcement will be posted in the forum.

If anyone believes their item has been recast by a member, they are encouraged to provide proof to the SIWDAT Staff.

Selling/trading of live firearms or readily converted firearms
The sale or trade of live firearms is strictly prohibited on the site. The sale or trade of deactivated firearms is permitted only if the item in question has been rendered completely non-functional as described under the applicable laws of BOTH the buyer and seller’s home country/state/province.
 
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Come on TMP, your example is horribly flawed. That gun is a glorified box, lots of right angles, simple features of course it can be knocked off in a day, I could do the same thing with clay in the same amount of time or less.

If you can explain to me how someone can capture the complex curves of the Ironman armor, particularly in the chest plate area, using that method then man I need to switch my modelling techniques. It's easy to knock out basic shapes but getting the right edge flow and getting the curves looking just right, thats the hard part.

I'd even go as far as to argue that getting the curvature right is easier with clay, it's way easier to use your hand to smooth something and adjust it into the right place then manipulating individual vertices and trying to align the camera in the right way to make sure that the adjustment works in all dimensions.

The only thing I'd say is easier about modelling in 3d vs clay is symmetry and the fact that you don't have to hold the measurement tools in your hand.
 
OH BOY... :D aleast we got a debate going. Allot of good valid points.

To clarify... I explained my self wrong. plain and simple... I dont se Pep as recast! Period. I explain it here but i could not since it does not allowe colors to the text.

My main intent was I wanted guidelines to the board to protect the artists who provide this board all the fantastic props even the pepakura makers as well as sculptural. Today the pep world is pretty revolutionary to thep replica prop, but it does not have ANY guidelines.. THIS is what i want to clarify and bring discussion of.

Regarding tracelineing. The Warmachine is a perfect example of not curved lines, but square lines. The Sideshow photos contributed allot fo have the Warmachine files so fast finished. Again i dont doubt there is work to it, but seeing the swift and efficient process of how it can be made it makes me also worry. Without having guidelines now we will wait with sculpting any new creations unitll the board i am member of also can have guidelines similar to sculptural work / recast as in the details of RPF describe.

I dont even se why there is so much debate against guidelines. Its there to guide the members of right and wrong.
Its so ironic because on weekly basis we got issues of recast of sculptural work. When i raise the question it is counterd by if i belive i own the ironman... OF COURSE NOT!.. Never said so... Yes we sculpted it from photos by vissual reffrence. And again i DONT doubt there is ALLOT of work involved in pepwork.

How can we ensure good guidelines for pepakura made armor.. Can anyone recast these because the files originaly are free? Is this ok... What guidelines do we have on these?? THIS is what i tried to explain...

Dont understand the argument of me not raising questions of wanting GUIDELINES...

The flaw in your logic is that in order for someone to use somebody elses work as a template to use in Pep they would need lots of reference images from all angles, or at least a few key angles, to be of much use. But the only real way to do that would be to buy your armor and take their own pictures of it but if they were to do that they might as well simply do a direct recast and save themselves the trouble if their intent is to recast for profit and if it isn't and they just want some Iron Man armor for themselves why not just wear what they bought from you and leave it be?

Going by your example of using someone elses work as a reference to make a quick and easy Pep file to work let's ask the 3D modelers here how easy or difficult it would be to from just photos. Let's take the work of another well known Iron Man armor maker here, because he has lots of photos of his work avaiable, Master Le. How easy or difficult do you think it would be to use the various photos of Master Le in his armor to "trace" over in 3D? Considering that they would be taken from all different angles, different disctances, different poses (most to all to look cool and not serve as reference), and different lighting my guess would be that you'd be hard pressed to use many as a template to simply trace over and the few that you do would only help here and there and wouldn't be good enough for the entire thing. Of course I'm no expert on Pep or 3D modeling, I'm mostly a Photoshop guru and I've only briefly dabbled in 3D so let's here from people here who do more than just dabble in 3D.
 
If done right, 3D modeling is artistic work, akin to sculpting. Creating details. Building a general shape, and refining it into a complete/detailed (virtual) model.

The techniques are no different than working in real life mediums (clay, wood, paper, bondo etc).

Done poorly, a simpel 3D model can be a track and trace job.
Look up the amount of complete and utter crap/**** iron man helmet 3D models online, and see for yourself where the boundry lies between models created by guys as dungbeetle and other pepakura artists out there. And amateur 'trace' modelers.

Turning this into this takes time, patience and a ton of creative, artistic work.
For hard-surface models, it can be an even more daunting task, getting all the angles and minor details right.

Depending on the amount of work done to a pepakura file, and the time spent refining it, and adding details, I would concider it a recast or modification.
If the artist chooses to let people use his file as a basis, and take it from there. Aswesome. But respect the artistry and time and effort that went into that.

You work in a different medium, but you're doing the same thing...
 
This sounds to be more about control than anything else.

So if siwdat creates the rules of conduct around IM props does that mean I am exempt from those rules since I refuse to ever be a part of that community?
And isn't siwdat your forum, TMP? You reference it like you're just a member but isn't it your brainchild? And as a result aren't these 'rules' simply ones you came up with to satisfy your own agenda? Sorry but you don't get to make the rules on this. You need to learn to let go.

If done right, 3D modeling is artistic work, akin to sculpting. Creating details. Building a general shape, and refining it into a complete/detailed (virtual) model.

The techniques are no different than working in real life mediums (clay, wood, paper, bondo etc).

Done poorly, a simpel 3D model can be a track and trace job.
Look up the amount of complete and utter crap/**** iron man helmet 3D models online, and see for yourself where the boundry lies between models created by guys as dungbeetle and other pepakura artists out there. And amateur 'trace' modelers.

Turning this into this takes time, patience and a ton of creative, artistic work.
For hard-surface models, it can be an even more daunting task, getting all the angles and minor details right.

Depending on the amount of work done to a pepakura file, and the time spent refining it, and adding details, I would concider it a recast or modification.
If the artist chooses to let people use his file as a basis, and take it from there. Aswesome. But respect the artistry and time and effort that went into that.

You work in a different medium, but you're doing the same thing...

I dont doubt it. Know its allot of work invloved but generalizing it that it does not happend is not correct.
It does. Its for a reason allot of the older pep files had allog of sharper flatter surface areas.

http://klik.tv/articles/view/4af29cae-68e0-4e75-997a-1032ac1102f4

I dont doubt the hard work and efforts put into the files finhead and Stealth used. They are FANTASTIC and it shows that work have been put into them. I am not generalizing, i feel that people are generalizing what i am trying to say.

I value the work of pepakura prop building but want guidelines to cover the grey areas of sculpure work similar to pepakura.
 
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That is the best Idea form Foxw at SIWDAT.
"You may not take and modify, copy, redistribute or profit from another person's work without thier consent, All works both replica and original are covered under the GPL"

This means I can distribute the MK V patterns from Fett.subriquet from the RPF because he has issued permission, I may not charge for them. Same with pep files, distribution with permission. However Pep still only serves as a base for the final sculpture of bondo that adds the details. Again permission of the author needs to be addressed before any castings are made.
Many in the Pep world make models just for the fun and experience of doing so (much like "live" sculptors) and at the end of the day given away so others can use them, most of the time it is with a use as thou will.

Not really any different form some one who makes a physical sculpture and offers castings to the community and says I don't care what you do with it, recast it, smash it to bits, etc.

I feel that Pepakura should fall under the same guidelines as paper props, like the magazine covers form Iron Man. Basically free to distribute but a no-no to copy and sell.
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what this Foxw person is trying to achieve, but you can't try to apply the GPL to a fan-made copy of intellectual property that's already owned by someone else.
 
So...

What would stop a sculptor from looking at your photos of a new project and making a similar version from scratch out of clay?

Is the principle objection that everyone will be able to make their own copy if it is released as a pepakura file, instead of just having a single sculptor with a similar product?
 
on the "you cant use mine for research" token, when im making a project, i get as much information and photos as i can, even if its a replica. i dont see anything wrong with a pep designer using a replica in their research.

if you have problems with that you shouldnt put up pictures on the internet.
 
this is rediculous.

ther is no way that peping is recasting.

all of us can print out fold, tape, glue what-have you to the same file piece, lets say a IM helmet. NONE of us would end up with the same outcome. everyone uses a different amount of resin, i actually fiberglass BOTH sides of a pep file, because its the way I want to built it.

there is no way in hell that peping anythign is recasting. unless of course you take the file and slap your name on it and say its your file. thats a bit different. but than again, who cares? there is no way you would get the same outcome.

Its like those people who CHARGE to download their pep files? why would you pay for that, when you can go find one thats not costing you anythign and scale and print it out, glass it, body fill it, evercoat it, whatever, and make your final piece.

are you saying that the multiple pep files i used for my master chief armor are recasts? no way in hell. heavily modded and there wasn't any details int he files to begin with...

this topic i think is discussed to death and no longer has any legs.

but thats my point of view, thats all.
 
wow MCCORDIA thats amazing, didnt know you could do that with pep anyone know a good place to download a full version of pep and if there is an T2 M79 grenade laucher file around?

Spaceman
 
1.B
In regards of Pepakura.. The instant the peices is moulded to make several casts it becomes a "recast" peice in my opinion

I believe this is what has folks up in arms. I intemperate this as to meaning I could only make ONE and ONLY one casting of my pep helmet, or risk being labeled a recaster. So for the sake of argument, I was building a suit for myself and my wife (or other family member, friend, etc) then because I cast more than one ( the definition of several = more than one) then I am a recaster. As has been pointed out before Pep is simply the base for a sculpture, much like a mannequin or body form used to sculpt clay. The end result will differ for everyone, depending on skill.

Now here is question for you, How do you feel about someone buying a prop from the studio ( lets say the auction Propworks did with the Iron Man props) and makes a mold of that item? Are they recasters?

I ask because this brings up the idea of obtaining the actual 3d model from any movie and turning it into pep. Is that the same as molding a screen used practical prop?
 
:confusedONCE AGAIN I NEVER SAID PEPAKURA IS RECASTING. READ THE TOPIC BEFORE YOU REPLY.

POSTING THIS AGAIN... TO CLARIFY!

THIS IS WHAT I TRIED TO WRITE BUT I MESSED THE BUILDING UP OF THE TEXT SO WRONG IT GOT UNDERSTOOD WRONG.
COPY OF SIWDAT RULES... NOWERE DOES IT SAY PEPAKURA IS RECAST.. I NEVER SAID IT IS.. I WANTED DEBATE ABOUT CONSTRUCTIVE GUIDELINES TO PROTECT BOTH PEPAKURA WORK AND SCULPTURE WORK.... WITHOUT THESE GUIDELINES ANYONE CAN COPY LIKE FOR INSTANT STEALTH, FINHEADS, TMP ARMOR AND NOTHING ON THAT BOARD CAN ENFORCE IT RIGHT DUE TO LACK OF GUIDELINES... ...


Selling/trading of recast items
Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community. Selling freely distributed paper props is considered a digital form of recasting. This includes Pepakura files.

The term Recast falls into category if the piece has been:
A. Directly recast of original licensed piece or Original fanmade art.
B. Retooled and modified prop over an existing licensed piece or fanmade art.

Recast falls into category when a Pepakura prop that already had been modified, finished, cleaned and detailed has been recast directly of the piece, or modified.
Pepakura files public available for download does not go in under this category IF the maker can show progress photos of the assembly and finish of the Pepakura armor.


Fanmade falls in under the category if the piece has:
A. Been sculpted by hand from scratch.
B. Assembled by hand from scratch.

Category: Private collection, Fanmade VS Recast:
Any alteration, improvement, re-sculpting of existing prop counts as recast if the piece is moulded and replicated. If the alteration, improvement or re-sculpting is for personal improvement of personal collection this does not go in under the category of recast.
NOTE! The instant the piece is offered for sale or numerous pieces moulded, cast and then sold this will result in permanent Bann and public announcement warning.

SIWDAT values artistic creativity, but not for people to steal other members hard work. The time and efforts put into a piece shall be respected and honoured by members at all time. Any suspicion of intent of recast will result in immediate temporarily suspension and strike. The sculptor/ maker have to prove sculptural progress photos of their original work. If this can not be provided and proved guilty of recasting the member will be permanently banned and public announcement will be posted in the forum.

If anyone believes their item has been recast by a member, they are encouraged to provide proof to the SIWDAT Staff.

Selling/trading of live firearms or readily converted firearms
The sale or trade of live firearms is strictly prohibited on the site. The sale or trade of deactivated firearms is permitted only if the item in question has been rendered completely non-functional as described under the applicable laws of BOTH the buyer and seller’s home country/state/province.
 
MY MAIN CONCERN!
My main concern is that if we or anyone make any type of custom work, a 3D pepapkura maker can take the design by tracing the lines of a photos and call it his own. Then once offerd to download, say its free and for people can do anything they want with it... :confused I honestly cant say i can agree to that.

A few points:
1) At the end of the day, we're all replicating someone else's intellectual property, an image we legally have no right to use.
2) Pepakura is a tool, as much as a sculpting knife or a 3D scanner. I personally appreciate the work that goes into a good 3D model and unfold, but it's just a framework. Consider it as a set of measurements taken from a photo. Unless you digitize and mathematically express every curve, you still have to "fill in the gaps". If I put the measurements onto a table, I'm sure you'd have no problem using them to check your sculpting.
3) Why would anyone use a photo of a fan sculpt to create a pep, when there are so many movie stills and genuine prop photos to use?
 
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