pepakura ethics (or is it ok to make moulds/bucks from pep files?)

[TMP]

I am sorry.:confused I did not mean to put anyone in the category of the bad term of a recaster.. It was not so intended.

I have a hard time expressing my self with the correct gramar and words but i will try to explain what i mean. To first clearify i dont doubt there is allot of work involved in 3D modeling or Pepakura. I value both trades. But i still think it is great we can have a debate about this, but please keep it constructive and look at this from all angles.

Please dont behead me, i am openminded and i also am trying to grasp all of this.:$

I am sure if Finheads, Stealth Ironman was recast directly or modified. It would not be tolerated. I agree to that. The amount of work these guys have put into their fantastic suits is really fantastic. But i am sure both would be upsett if someone just took it and cut corners to then make profitt from it.

PLEASE STAY WITH ME.... :$

If you look away from pepakura and onto sculpting. Then to directly recast of modify an existing prop is not acceptable in any term of standard. Yes it does require manualy labour work. But still its a recast of something existing. I am sure we all agree to that.

The grey area with pepakure is most dificult.

1. The 3D files tend to come from a from origins of 3D rendering or photos of original artwork or piece were they overtrace the lines of the photo. In any case this could be a licenced piece or orginal work.
2. Once the file is created it is offerd to the public to do what they want with it.
3. The pepakura file is in a fact a themeplate armture to build your work of. I dont doubt this method is here to stay, and i enjoy seeing the work of these suits beeing done. And some few people like your self Finhead have taken allot WORK EFFORT into making it look great and I look forward seeing it beeing worn.

If not having any rules for this, shal pepakura become an untouchable area? And why? I think it is fair for all to have a comon stance on the guidelines of this. Even have the moderators on this board help out on this.

Pepakura is pretty new and it is revolutionary in forms of replica props. Therby even more dificult to handle.


Let me give this question without pointing fingers at anyone... This is just to give an example of dilema.

How can we in the best way define the difference in recasting a oxmox statue or as example our own suit and retooling it to sell it vs recasting pepakura make a peice and sell it? Who can claim "ownership to the original prop, fanmade sculpted prop vs the pepakura file maker and the builder?

If you anyone can come up with an ideal deffenission that makes a big difference, i am listening.

I still think, as long as it is not build up by hand from ground its a form of PLEASE EXUSE MY TERM BUT I CANT FIND ANY OTHER WORD IN MY LANGUAGE:unsure..."recast", re-traced, modified of themeplate, assembled by themeplate..... :confused


MY MAIN CONCERN!
My main concern is that if we or anyone make any type of custom work, a 3D pepapkura maker can take the design by tracing the lines of a photos and call it his own. Then once offerd to download, say its free and for people can do anything they want with it... :confused I honestly cant say i can agree to that.


Yes the 3D modeler uses time, but in most cases takes the lines of directly of the orignial photo, aligning almsot everything as it was. It can somehow be assosiated similar to takeing a baking paper on top of an existing art drawing or photo then trade the pen over the original art and call it thier own. Yes possible modifying some lines or move it a bit or even color it different... I know i am taking this example to the extreme... But i dont know how i can describe it with the correct words.

In other terms, if pepakura is not given guidelines or "rules" it means that any artform out there in the real world can be taken to pepeakura files and for people to copy. This is not only pepakura but also 3D modling from existing peices and having a machine replicating it. I dont think that is fair.

I think......
A. We need to define what Pepakura is in form of terms of artistry art or another form or creative termenology. We need to define it for all intrests of this comunity.
B. Get clear guidelines of use/ missuse of pepakura files, even sculptural work.
C. Provide a secure base for artistic sculptural work and creative pepakura makers and to protect their work on the existing peice.
D. Establish a good balance between the best of both sides.
E. Get a constuctive debate about the guidelines of pepakura other artforms.

MOST OF ALL I WANT A FREINDLY CONSTRUCTIVE DEBATE.
WE DONT HAVE TO BEHEAD EACHOTHER FOR VARIOUSE OPINIONS OR DISTANCE OUR SELF FROM PEOPLE DUE TO OUR DIFFERENCE
I STILL RESPECT PEOPLE FOR HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION. ITS SPICE TO THE COMUNITY

 

[rundown]

Yes the 3D modeler uses time, but in most cases takes the lines of directly of the orignial photo, aligning almsot everything as it was. It can somehow be assosiated similar to takeing a baking paper on top of an existing art drawing or photo then trade the pen over the original art and call it thier own. Yes possible modifying some lines or move it a bit or even color it different... I know i am taking this example to the extreme... But i dont know how i can describe it with the correct words.

I'm sorry but your being naïve about 3d modeling. Its called modeling for something since it isnt just aligning lines. It can even take the same amount of time then a real life clay model. Its the same principe just that its digital.
Be sure to know what you speak of before you say this
Dont you try to align corners with a ref on a clay model to? Whe just have the option to overlay it. You could do the same with a beamer.
Its practicly the same...

 

[Neon Sentry]

TMP, you're making a lot of assumptions. And I really don't appreciate having my work as a 3D modeler being referred to as glorified tracing. I actually find sculpting in clay infinitely easier than modeling on the computer. And I simply cannot fathom how utilizing reference images suddenly makes me a recaster, but you an artist.

You yourself used images of the Iron Man suit to build your... Iron Man suit. Reference images have no impact on what you're debating, and if they do, you haven't stated what that is.

A Pepakura file is essentially a 3-dimensional template for creating an item. Nothing more, nothing less. It's an advanced form of blueprinting. But, you still need the talent of a crew (even if it's a one-man crew) to bring those blueprints into reality.

I've spent the last two years working on an accurate 3D model of RoboCop. I've seen at least two other people attempt this as well, and they either did not make the file available, or are not finished. I fully intend to release this file on the internet when it's completed to allow people to create their own RoboCop suits. And yes, make molds of their suits, and sell casts of their suits. If I didn't want people doing that stuff, I wouldn't release the files, simple as that. Besides, if nothing else, it'll help stem the flow of people buying suits from that scam artist.

 

[Sigma-LS]

Okay we've dicussed this a bit on the 405th as well and here's my 2 cents.

A purely original creation is yours. I couldn't make a painting of it and sell that without your say so (or shouldn't). So this is a non-issue. You make a Terminator Bio Helmet. Nobody else should produce a close copy of it's likeness without at least asking you.

If you did some little modification to something existing (i.e. you add an extra way for panels to join on an iron man suit to give it greater wearability). That's cool but maybe I like what you did and want to use it for mine as well. That should be cool. And if I wanted to made a 3D model with that function in mind that should be fine too.

Models: Skip makes great SW pep. He has a no molding agreement for his files so that should be respected. Modelers that make their stuff totally free and clear should be respected and if you mold something from their file it might be a nice way to honor them by kicking them a raw cast or something (I did this when flying_squirrel made a nice HD H3 Mk V model for me)


Things to keep in mind:

1. We actually know how to pep really well now. When it was getting started and we had no idea how to smooth files or join open edges or had any real modelers amongst us it was very different. i still remember people trying to figure out how the hell we were going to harden paper and discovering cardstock vs. printing paper etc. The neat nice files you see now are a product of over 3 years of learning and evolution of this process. They look nice and packaged because of all the blood, sweat, and tears.

2. Modeling is sculpting, and it is not easier than sculpting though the mirror tool is nice. Many sculptors do multiple version molds and one offs. Pep is the equivalent to sharing an early version 1 one-off cast. And the model maker is free to give it out as he sees fit.

3. Pep is a poor man's CNC. You should already have rules regarding that kind of model use for a long time now.


I think a lot of this discussion comes from the image that the 405th and/or most pep users are just a bunch of snot-nosed kids that seems to have permeated here. While there are a lot of folks that are amateur or young and new (attracted by low cost and nice results), the people doing the work for a lot of the pep and props are not. Most of us are members here too and have been for awhile.

We've been making really cool stuff and posting it here for years and we haven't done anything to screw any of you over. That in and of itself should say something.

EDIT: This was directed mostly at TMP. I reread it and it felt a little heated and OT for the OP's question.

 

[Rebo]

I worry about you lot sometime, you way over think things and make them more complicated than they need to be.

Did the artist release his/her work into the public domain?.
Yes, then use as you see fit as it is now fair game . There is no harm in thanking the creator or sending them a gift as a show of appreciation but there is no onus on you to do so.

Not everyone visits these communities and will pick the files up from somewhere else around the net, are they bound by rules they have never read, made by people they will never meet on forums they will never visit?.

The words ethics and prop replicas should never be used in the same sentence, should they be, then the internet will explode.

 

[Fetts.Sobriquet]

TMP, With the utmost respect I say this. I think that your stance on pep is negative because you and your team spent years getting an Iron Man suit sculpted and built and now it appears that anyone can just download these files and build themselves an Iron Man in a few weeks/months. It's like the rug got jerked out from under you, and now an Iron Man suit/statue is much more accessible to those willing to put the effort into it.

As I read your arguments they all seem to just be you rationalizing your bias against pep.

You seem to want to curtail pep builders from casting and selling their work. The genie is out of the bottle. You're not going to be able to put it back in . Pep is here and it's going to be used however people want. You can't assign a moral code to prop making. It worked with recasting but even then there are grey areas of recasting.

I was shocked to see that your site has rules regarding pep. IMHO, that just validates that there is an agenda there.

 

[mrbungle]

if you feel bad about useing someones pep file to make a prop and selling castings of that prop. send the guy who made the pep file a casting.

most pep files do not have the detail needed to make a finished prop. pep files are great armatures , but that is all they are good for.

IMHO

 

[Finhead]

TMP take you head out of your ***

PEP is not recasting. The original artist did not "trace" anything, did not just put photos into the program to get a 3D model. He worked countless hours on a "MODEL" in the digital form not you clay form.
The files I have used have been "hand" built so to speak not a rip. Randy has put a crazy amount of time into each file, that's why they are not 100% screen accurate but his "OWN" model. It's no different than a guy sculpting clay, you get stressed you make mistakes you redo the model countless times until you happy. And trust me if you not an artist in true the sense of the word your final product will look crappy. There are a few different models to choose from and Randy's if his not the same as any of the others and IMO is the best by far. If you fallow your thinking they should all be the same so why have more than one?????
(By the way you just insulted my "TWIN" brother as well, by saying his work (lat 12yrs) was just tracing, man you can't keep you foot out of your mouth can ya :evil: ) You should go try and do some 3D modeling before you get your mouth in gear, it would take you longer by far than with clay, oh wait you don't do the sculpting you have deep pockets.

Then after that's done the there's the filling and finishing work which takes just as long. This makes everyones finished product different, there will never be anyones the same. If you lines of thinking were right nobody would care to have my helmet or my armor because they can just create it for themselves, and it would be exactly the same. (far from the case)

Really you should try and do some of the work on some of this stuff from start to finish before you spout out this kind of drivle. You have a team working for you to create your armor correct? (you didn't sculpt or cast your stuff?) It took multiple people on you team to get the job done correct. Well DF is the first guy on my team (and many others) I'm the next guy so there you have a team effort with a whole lot of time and effort working from the same reference material your team did, in hopes to create what looks like a character who is nobodies besides MARVELS. Does not matter how much work you or I or anyone puts into these suits still not ours to cast, still not ours to make $$ off.

 

[Trek920]

if its on the internet for free download, than, like someone else said, its fair game...

I don't think ill be even casting my Halo stuff, as its very expensive to buy smooth-on and so forth. but if it did, i would haev issue sending someone a raw pull for nothing. but on that same note, how am i supposed to identify a user with no real name, and just a screen name?

either way, its not recasting since its just your base to start molding on top of and creating the fine details, etc. no two outcomes would look the same even if done by the same person.

 

[Dancin_Fool]

TMP take you head out of your ***

PEP is not recasting. The original artist did not "trace" anything, did not just put photos into the program to get a 3D model. He worked countless hours on a "MODEL" in the digital form not you clay form.
The files I have used have been "hand" built so to speak not a rip. Randy has put a crazy amount of time into each file, that's why they are not 100% screen accurate but his "OWN" model. It's no different than a guy sculpting clay, you get stressed you make mistakes you redo the model countless times until you happy. And trust me if you not an artist in true the sense of the word your final product will look crappy. There are a few different models to choose from and Randy's if his not the same as any of the others and IMO is the best by far. If you fallow your thinking they should all be the same so why have more than one?????
(By the way you just insulted my "TWIN" brother as well, by saying his work (lat 12yrs) was just tracing, man you can't keep you foot out of your mouth can ya :evil: ) You should go try and do some 3D modeling before you get your mouth in gear, it would take you longer by far than with clay, oh wait you don't do the sculpting you have deep pockets.

Then after that's done the there's the filling and finishing work which takes just as long. This makes everyones finished product different, there will never be anyones the same. If you lines of thinking were right nobody would care to have my helmet or my armor because they can just create it for themselves, and it would be exactly the same. (far from the case)

Really you should try and do some of the work on some of this stuff from start to finish before you spout out this kind of drivle. You have a team working for you to create your armor correct? (you didn't sculpt or cast your stuff?) It took multiple people on you team to get the job done correct. Well DF is the first guy on my team (and many others) I'm the next guy so there you have a team effort with a whole lot of time and effort working from the same reference material your team did, in hopes to create what looks like a character who is nobodies besides MARVELS. Does not matter how much work you or I or anyone puts into these suits still not ours to cast, still not ours to make $$ off.

Thanks Fin, I appreciate hearing those things. I think Sigma-LS makes some really good points, it really is like a poor mans CNC.

TMP, I don't think you understand how 3D modelling works. I want you to watch this video I dug up. It's a different modelling program then I use called mud box but the general idea is the same. This one blurs the lines between sculpting in digital and real life even more. Hopefully it gives you a better understanding of what modelling is and that it isn't just "tracing lines".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJvyItkKtdM&feature=related

Like I said before, I enjoy releasing my files to the public and seeing all the builds that come out from them. I'm not in this to make money, I've got a great job that I love and this is just a hobby. I think it's super cool to be able to see peoples costumes come together and know that it started as a Dancin_Fool file.

 

[TMP]

TMP take you head out of your ***

PEP is not recasting. The original artist did not "trace" anything, did not just put photos into the program to get a 3D model. He worked countless hours on a "MODEL" in the digital form not you clay form.
The files I have used have been "hand" built so to speak not a rip. Randy has put a crazy amount of time into each file, that's why they are not 100% screen accurate but his "OWN" model. It's no different than a guy sculpting clay, you get stressed you make mistakes you redo the model countless times until you happy. And trust me if you not an artist in true the sense of the word your final product will look crappy. There are a few different models to choose from and Randy's if his not the same as any of the others and IMO is the best by far. If you fallow your thinking they should all be the same so why have more than one?????
(By the way you just insulted my "TWIN" brother as well, by saying his work (lat 12yrs) was just tracing, man you can't keep you foot out of your mouth can ya :evil: ) You should go try and do some 3D modeling before you get your mouth in gear, it would take you longer by far than with clay, oh wait you don't do the sculpting you have deep pockets.

Then after that's done the there's the filling and finishing work which takes just as long. This makes everyones finished product different, there will never be anyones the same. If you lines of thinking were right nobody would care to have my helmet or my armor because they can just create it for themselves, and it would be exactly the same. (far from the case)

Really you should try and do some of the work on some of this stuff from start to finish before you spout out this kind of drivle. You have a team working for you to create your armor correct? (you didn't sculpt or cast your stuff?) It took multiple people on you team to get the job done correct. Well DF is the first guy on my team (and many others) I'm the next guy so there you have a team effort with a whole lot of time and effort working from the same reference material your team did, in hopes to create what looks like a character who is nobodies besides MARVELS. Does not matter how much work you or I or anyone puts into these suits still not ours to cast, still not ours to make $$ off.

:confused... Gee.. No way possible to get any constructive talk. Apperently you set your mind on what i think, but you misunderstand me ... ermm Freind :confused
Why do you keep sticking to few words that ticked you of and not focusing on me trying to explain you my true intent of wanting to have guidelines to maintain both pep and sculptor work.

All i wish for is to also have similar guidelines for pepakura as is for sculptor trades. How many battles have not been fought for DV helmets or Strormtrooper helmets beeing cast of eachother, based of this and that.

Again i come back to my point that nobody seem to want to answer.

We are planning to make a custom ManOfiron armor sculpt.

Once we show a photo of this, i know this will be 3D Pepped. How can we protect this? What guidelines are there for people to know what is right or wrong. If we used thousands of dollars and hours of labour how can we be ensured a 3D modeler not copying it and offer the retraced and modded files to public for free and same time saying to people to do what they want with it.

Unless we have any type of support or cover we cant make anything custom, because then the unquestion/ unchalanged pepakura can charge over and just grab take what they want and use it as they want without any guidelines of code of conduct.

How can guidelines be formed to maintain the intrest of Pepeakura files makers and builders combined with sculptural work.

 

[Finhead]

What?? Why is everyone 3d PEPing your stuff? As far as I know the 3D files where "BASED" off the movie suit not your stuff.
So someone that sculpts the same piece as you or even refrences you stuff for a sculpt would be doing the same as a 3d modeler would. It's not a scan it in and produce a pep file, you still don't get it. :confused
You simply can't protect your armor or anyones (MARVELS) armor from being used for ref once the pics are out on the net its the way it is. I have had my Armor used for ref by many people as well, I don't care and couldn't do anything about it if I wanted to.
You need to relax a bit or your going to give yourself a heartattack worring about something you can't control.

 

[TMP]

Thanks Fin, I appreciate hearing those things. I think Sigma-LS makes some really good points, it really is like a poor mans CNC.

TMP, I don't think you understand how 3D modelling works. I want you to watch this video I dug up. It's a different modelling program then I use called mud box but the general idea is the same. This one blurs the lines between sculpting in digital and real life even more. Hopefully it gives you a better understanding of what modelling is and that it isn't just "tracing lines".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJvyItkKtdM&feature=related

Like I said before, I enjoy releasing my files to the public and seeing all the builds that come out from them. I'm not in this to make money, I've got a great job that I love and this is just a hobby. I think it's super cool to be able to see peoples costumes come together and know that it started as a Dancin_Fool file.

Thank you for your link and i acknolege and respect the trade of 3D Modeling. The video you show is what i call sculpting, its base work and building it up. But when it comes to replica prop trade these are rarly sculpted from scratch, but rather traced from existing prop.... They do like this:

They take an existing photo and trace the lines over. If you then got a 360 degree photo from all angles you in short instant replicated the entire suit.

This is were is se the grey area comes in. Because if we make any custom prop our creation is replicated in a day with this method.

As you se this is not what i define as custom sculpting, this is traceing.

Here they define the with with equal mathematical forumla to get it proportion. And this is based on only a photo from the side. Imagine with what you can do with photos from all angles.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4442055508_401cbdd7c2.jpg

Without any guidelines, forum code of conduct in regards of Pepakura files i feel that any project we spend month working on is copied in a day. This scenario is for all sculpture or creations in this forum. And i think it is important to raise questions about CLEAR guidelines for all members to be comfortable with. I dont feel comfortable as it is now because i dont know what is acceptable because right now it seems that pep files can get away with anything unless we got something both pepakura file maker, builders and sculptors can live allong side in comfortable allongside without fearing for their hard sculpted work.

Once again, i am not out to call out anyone. I want a debate, talk a mutual constructive discussion how we can do this.
Dont hang me for beeing the first to take up this issue.

 

[Riceball]

We are planning to make a custom ManOfiron armor sculpt.

Once we show a photo of this, i know this will be 3D Pepped. How can we protect this? What guidelines are there for people to know what is right or wrong. If we used thousands of dollars and hours of labour how can we be ensured a 3D modeler not copying it and offer the retraced and modded files to public for free and same time saying to people to do what they want with it.

Unless we have any type of support or cover we cant make anything custom, because then the unquestion/ unchalanged pepakura can charge over and just grab take what they want and use it as they want without any guidelines of code of conduct.

How can guidelines be formed to maintain the intrest of Pepeakura files makers and builders combined with sculptural work.

First off, I don't think that there are any guarantess, somebody could easily could take your work and make a completely original sculpt of it without using Pep or recasting from it, would that make any difference to you? Secondly, even if they did use your work as reference for a 3D model that's all it would be, reference. Few people have access to 3D scanners and even fewer are capable of handling something as large as a set of Iron Man armor. Anybody who would be using your build as a reference would be doing it all from scratch, of they may be able to use pictures of your build and work over it but it would still be a lot of work and much more than just tracing; as of right now there isn't a 3D program out that you scan a 2D image into, hit a button and get an instant and perfect 3D rendering of said image.

The other thing to consider is why would anyone bother trying to copy someone elses work to use in making a Pep file? If they wanted to recast your work it would be far simpler and quicker to simply just take your suit, chuck it into some silicone and call it a day. Seriously, think about it, why do recasters recast other people's work to begin with? Because it's far easier and quicker to simply recast somebody elses work than it is to create it themselves from scratch. By trying to use your work to create their own Pep file and then putting it all together, reinforce the paper, Bondo it, add details back in, smooth the whole thing, mold and cast thing they wouldn't be saving themselves any time or effort. If they wanted to recast to make a quick buck then they would be better off simply doing it the old fashioned way; if they wanted a costume for themselves and possibly to make some money off of then they would be better off simply downloading the existing Pep files and going from there and if there's anything they felt was lacking they could simply fix after they've Bondo'd the glassed Pep model.

Do you see what I'm trying to say? You're making a mountain out of a mole hill, so the saying goes. Using Pep, in my opinion, is a very lousy way to make recasts as it saves you neither time nor effort. The only thing that would be of concern to the community would be Peppers taking other people's Pep work and trying to pass it off as their own; that would essentially be the same thing as recasting in the Pep world and it's even worse than regular recasting since the only effort involved was in downloading the file and reuploading to their own servers, at with regular recasting they still have to mold and then cast the piece they're copying.

 

[DaddyfromNaboo]

My very own, personal opinion on this as sculptor as well as a hobbyist in 3D design is:

...
Again i come back to my point that nobody seem to want to answer.

We are planning to make a custom ManOfiron armor sculpt.

Once we show a photo of this, i know this will be 3D Pepped. How can we protect this? What guidelines are there for people to know what is right or wrong.

If it is YOUR artwork, YOUR creative (!), copyrightable effort, then it is protected just like every other work of art is.

If Marvel set out to lock down all sites that have Iron Man pepakuras, Iron Man images, anything related to Iron Man, they easily could do that. They own the rights to the "Iron Man"-likeness. See http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivative/notice.cgi?NoticeID=24203

for a short, yet simple explanation about what Copyright encompasses. It´s a CnD for the Itunes store, you probably know the story.

Oh, and "derivative" is what you especially should be interested in

If we used thousands of dollars and hours of labour how can we be ensured a 3D modeler not copying it and offer the retraced and modded files to public for free and same time saying to people to do what they want with it.

You are now viewing the fan-issue quite from the same vantage point than the studios do.

Unless we have any type of support or cover we cant make anything custom, because then the unquestion/ unchalanged pepakura can charge over and just grab take what they want and use it as they want without any guidelines of code of conduct.

The law. That is, if you want to go there. In the end it´s always the law. What else do you think you could do to enforce any rule? What means do you have?

How can guidelines be formed to maintain the intrest of Pepeakura files makers and builders combined with sculptural work.

Why do you want to combine that? Are you implying that nobody will ever sculpt anything anymore if there is no "ceasefire" agreed upon between 3D-artists and sculptors?

Do you really think that the two media can´t co-exist?

It´s funny, because in the professional environment of the movie industry there is a similar discussion going on, namely between real set construction and digital sets. It´s both a means to come to a result in the end.

It´s like you´d say that probably the statuary sculptors who worked with marble or any other stone were shocked when they found out that other sculptors used clay! Oh my god, they only have to look at an object and press, push, form the clay so that it looks the same ! That´s recasting!

Seriously, you have to cope with the fact that a lot of people will be able to produce items at will in the future.

Please see the "3D printing thread", you will see that this method is even more vulnerable to recasting. The future will bring us all home production facilities, where you use a digital template (!) to create something.

The pep file is just a pattern to create something.

By the way, did our mothers and grandmothers recast clothes when they started to use patterns?

 

[Sigma-LS]

You still aren't grasping the amount of time and effort that complex shapes and curves require in 3D modeling. That's just getting the look. For pep you also have to worry about open edges, intersecting shapes, proper poly shape and count. That's just getting it ready to unfold. Then you have to scale it, smooth it by fold-angle adjustment, manually slice the parts in a manner which will preserve the proper geometry when held together by just some little flaps and glue. Possibly add additional supports to maintain the original proportions. Then make sure all those parts fit together as neatly as possibly on the fewest sheets of paper possible.

That is at least weeks of committed work before you can even put the paper in the printer.

I'm trying to be objective about this and not let it get personal but like I said, why the hell is there no crying foul about CNC or 3D printers because it is the EXACT same thing. This just screams ulterior motive to me.

 

[Riceball]

Thank you for your link and i acknolege and respect the trade of 3D Modeling. The video you show is what i call sculpting, its base work and building it up. But when it comes to replica prop trade these are rarly sculpted from scratch, but rather traced from existing prop.... They do like this:

They take an existing photo and trace the lines over. If you then got a 360 degree photo from all angles you in short instant replicated the entire suit.

Once again, I am not out to call out anyone. I want a debate, talk a mutual constructive discussion how we can do this.
Don't hang me for being the first to take up this issue.

That's a pretty poor example of what you're worried about. You realize that someone could do the exact same thing by printing the image out on paper and then layering sheets of foam or MDF and cut to match? That's because it's a fairly simple shape with lots or straight lines which are very easy to reproduce in 3D as well as using the sheet stacking method I mentioned above. Trying to use the same technique on something as complicated as a suit of Iron Man armor with all of its curves, compound curves, and complex shapes won't be so easy. The only difference between tracing over a reference image and trying to do it without tracing is that the tracing might be a slight bit easier but I don't think by all that much though. Unless they've bought one of your suits and shot in a professional studio setting where everything is perfectly lit, shot evenly from multiple angles it won't be that much help. Just using the helmet alone as an example, think about how the design flows with the all of the compound curves and complex shapes, then think of how it would look in a photo from front, back, top, and sides, you really a think a photo would convey all of the complexities enough that you could simply just trace over it and reproduce it accurately? I guarantee you that the best that you could do would be to get the general shape or outline but it will still take a lot more work to get all of the subtle nuances and details that exist.

The ultimate argument against worry about Pep modelers "stealing" your work and pass it off as their own is, why bother when it would be far easier to simply buy one of your suits and recast it the old fashioned way. For someone to use your suits as reference in making a Pep file, and then using the Pep model to make a suit as a "cheat" and to capitalize on your work would be like a recaster making a cast of your work, sanding off all of the details and then resculpting over it. Sure you could do that but why go through all of the extra effort when there's a far easier way of doing so?

 

[DaddyfromNaboo]

...

They take an existing photo and trace the lines over. If you then got a 360 degree photo from all angles you in short instant replicated the entire suit.

TMP, please tell me that you do NOT use photo reference for sculpting !!!

And that you do NOT use the best available photo with the LEAST possible perspective distortion as a guide line.

Here they define the with with equal mathematical forumla to get it proportion. And this is based on only a photo from the side. Imagine with what you can do with photos from all angles.
...

And that you do NOT create drawings and/or take measurements from photos to get a feeling for the correct (!) proportions.

And that you do NOT look at ALL available photos from ALL angles to find out how the threedimensional (3D) representation of an item has to look like.

If you DON´t do all of the above and just view the movie once and then get on sculpting, then you are the best sculptor out there that is.

TMP, you are painting yourself in a corner here.

IMO you are more bemoaning the alleged technologically aided ease that would come with the creation of a piece by using a 3D-modelling technique than actually trying to find a solution for a non-existing problem.

It reminds me a lot of the "studio scale models" vs. "3D-rendering" discussions.

Or the painters of the early 19th century that faced the advance of photography. Both techniques still have their place in our world. A lot of the artists adapted, either by learning how to take photos or just finding niches to survice in, or get just so damn good that there was no alternative to them.

Or the fight that the music industry fights against digital copying. It´s interesting that they saw digital distribution to be the only way of not losing that fight.

 

[CustomPropSculptorGuy]

I think if the person who is doing the pep work is the one doing the rendering. Justify it all you want, but the bottom line is, when you use someone elses' work to do a pep job, you're doing just that.

In most cases, the person doing the pep didn't take the time to do the 3D rendering. And truth be told, if it's that hard, speaking as a 3D CAD designer, you're not using the software the way it should be LoL - then again I use a lot of key-commands but that's why I went to school originally...

In any event, giving the person who did the original rendering is almost a given, and I think that if you don't, you're really doing wrong by the artist in this case.

But look at it from this way - You take a pep file, f'glass is, and then make a mold and sell it - technically, I'd say that's no different than recasting a prop from Ebay, but that will start the war all over again.

The there is those of us who take source material and sculpt it in clay, make our molds, and run our pieces. I think the term re-casting is merely a technicallity in this case. When a clay sculptor makes a mold, it's their direct labor that went in to making the prop. When someone does a pep file, essentially you're taking a piece of paper with lines, matching it up and eventually making a mold of someone elses' blue print.

Here's why I see it this way and why I think people are calling it recasting w/pep...

We'll use an IM helmet...

Clay sculptors will NEVER get the sculpt exact - let's face it. None of us here - I could be wrong, but as fas as I know, haven't sculpted anything to do with that helmet. So they will sculpt it and make a mold and run a cast of THEIR personal labor.

With a pep file, as I said before, someone is typically using someone elses' hard labor in creating the file - the pep user is basically putting it together, nothing more than an intricate 3D puzzle - lets not kid ourselves - it's a 3D puzzle in a 1:1 ratio that someone said "Hey this can be used as a great base" and boom - Pep is taking over as the "anyone can do it" craze in the prop world.

Ok, back on track - the point being I think people call Pep recasting - Is that I feel people who do the pep are assembling these 3D puzzles that someone else created and popping molds off of, even though there is a lot of work to be done by the pep assembler... Did that make any sense??

I also think, and I was feeling this way for a bit before gaining my bearings, being a custom sculptor, is that the clay guy are getting nervous that they're going to be outmoded as it were. Thankfully for me, my client base is more of the organic side of things, and I don't see pep going that far out side of technical armor, but again, it also creates competition in the community. And with that being said, there, in the US alone, are 300million people - the community isn't that big - there's only a hand full of people doing it who are good at it - so -

I don't know if any of that made sense, but it's how I feel.

Clay sculptors use source material and throw clay to make molds; Pep assemblers use a pre fabbed plan and then assemble it off of someone elses' work... The conversation is nothing more than a variation of "the chicken and the egg" in my eyes.

If the clay guys are getting nervous about business: One, bring the prices down, I know I had to and business has boomed like I've never seen, I'm booked til December right now, but more importantly, start showing your passion in your work.

For the Pep guys and gals - do your thing - I know I can't pep to save my life. Create the competition, I know it pushed me and now my work is a LOT better than it's been in past with getting complacent - not going to lie.

Bottom line, this is a prop forum, different ages, abilities, skills, etc.

Just build it and give praise when its good, tips when it's bad and run a joke or two when it's ugly LoL

 

[Darth Lars]

Edit: I wrote this as a response to the first few posts in this thread, not as a reply to the post immediately above me.

Just because something is on the Internet does not mean that it is free, and just because something is available on the Internet free of charge does not mean that it is within the Public Domain.
Building something from pepakura files is equivalent to casting a sculpt. Both are artworks, just in different mediums. How hard it was to make the original sculpt/file or to make something out of it is irrelevant.

The prop-maker/artist who made the file decides what you are allowed to do with the artwork. He/she defines the "license" that goes with the file/sculpt. If the "license" is that you can only make one prop out of it, then that is the only thing that you are allowed to do.
In the case of physical objects, the license is implied, because that is the established convention within the prop community. In the case of digital files, the maker has the responsibility to express the "license" when it is unclear what is implied.

Here is an analogy: I take lots of pictures of myself, my friends and my props and I make them available on the Internet for people to see and be inspired of. I don't mind if people save these pictures to their harddrives for themselves. That does not mean that it is OK for someone to sell framed prints of my pictures. Other pics, I do allow people to print and do whatever they want with them, but then I say so.

When in doubt, ask the artist.