Original Lightsaber found at LFL with ROUND blade

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by James Kenobi 1138, Apr 9, 2015.

  1. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Looking at the publicity pics of Mark Hamill holding the not-from-a-Graflex Graflex I always thought the blade looked round.The Kenobi stunt does look like a square or triangular blade though.The Stunt shown looks like it did after it was modified after ANH and used in the Bespin duel.

    Enjoy.

    http://youtu.be/JWAniYowdeA
     
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  2. cayman shen

    cayman shen Master Member

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    Neat! Thanks for the link!
     
  3. Probe Droid

    Probe Droid Master Member

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    Cool!

    FYI: Jon Rinzler, who writes the Making of books, is the tall guy asking the questions.
     
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  4. PoopaPapaPalps

    PoopaPapaPalps Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I wish there was more stuff on the set dressing for Star Wars. Christian was a key figure in creating that retro-future clunky look that was in Star Wars and really was defined in Alien through Blade Runner. I really want to know more of the methodology that went into that.
     
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  5. mugatu

    mugatu Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    James Kenobi 1138,

    Thank you immensely for this!
     
  6. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    very interesting...
     
  7. Jedioz

    Jedioz Active Member

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    Thanks
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2018
  8. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wowee!
     
  9. Sym-Cha

    Sym-Cha Master Member

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    I love men with white gloves :

    [​IMG]

    So I spy with my little eye left to right : DV Barbican, Luke ESB, Luke ROTJ, OB1 with bubbles, OB1 ROTS, Dooku, Maul but what's in the front of picture behind the Vader/Luke stunt? ... a DV ROTJ Graflex?

    [​IMG]

    There's even another in between the Vader/Luke stunt and DV ROTJ Graflex? ... a lightsaber with a red stunt blade ... Anakin's AOTC? :

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Indeed a round stunt blade, MPP clamp, not many T-tracks left on it, no red button or glass eye either in the bottom :

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Chaim
     
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  10. gizmo

    gizmo Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Yay.:)



    Ben
     
  11. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Could be Graflex clamp painted black. Paint was added to convert it from the Luke to Vader saber for the duel scene. I would also guess that the square blade was swapped out for the round blade because it doesn't spin in that scene while Obi-Wan's blade does.
     
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  12. matty matt

    matty matt Sr Member

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    Don Bies said on Facebook that the blade they found was not an original one but one that was made in the 80's for some kind of promotional shoot.
     
  13. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    We do know they were using round blades as early as ESB even with practice sabers, this saber is in photos and video being used by both Hamill and Bob Anderson. This saber is, I think, the one Luke is holding on the cover of the 'Making of ESB' book.

    Looking at the promo photos of Mark in the black shirt going between the hero Graflex and this bladed stunt saber I've always believed that blade was round and not square. I think it is very possible when Luke used it in ANH it was a spinning square blade but changed to a static round blade for Vader.

    Now this exact blade may not be an original, but this is the first time I've seen that original stunt saber post ROTJ when it was a practice saber.
     
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  14. scottjua

    scottjua Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Agreed James... the black shirt promo shots DID have a round blade. It's round... round round round.

    [​IMG]

    And I don't see an OB1 with bubbles in the table shot. I see a Luke ROTJ that looks cast... you see the casting bubbles.
     
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  15. Sym-Cha

    Sym-Cha Master Member

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    Thanks scottjua it's the rings of Luke's ROTJ casting that reflects the light as if they were bubbles :wacko

    Could that stunt saber in the video also be the same as this only
    with a black painted clamp?

    [​IMG]

    And due to the same lack of a glass eye hole and bunny ears?

    Chaim
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  16. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I don't think so. There aren't holes for the graflex button and glass eye on the piece in the video.

    Unless those were glued on, fell off and those other black things that we see in the video were added on.

    Screen Shot 2015-04-10 at 4.13.10 PM.png

    Also, that's totally a graflex clamp and not MPP. The side profile is what I'm looking at. It's straight and continues the full length of the clamp. That hollow cast Luke ROTJ is pretty neat, it might even be a cast of the V2 seeing as those pommel cubes aren't the same as the resin cast hero next to it - and I believe that red one is an EP. 3 Anakin Stunt. The recessed area up top can be seen and that was a ROTS thing.

    are those more stunt blades sitting in front? augh, I wish we knew what those were and how they were situated inside a stunt saber!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  17. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Just to clarify, I'm thinking there were either a couple of those tube-stunts or I'm definitely missing some facts on how it got to look like that today :D


    Does anyone recognize this..chunk with a blade on it?

    View attachment 462628
     
  18. Sym-Cha

    Sym-Cha Master Member

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    Exactly my point ... so it could be the same prop, since the hole for a glass eye is not apparent either in the stunt saber I posted :facepalm As for the clamp ... normally an MPP clamp has a plastic sleeve underneath and thus appears not straight but without it ... it's straight ... so still it's inconclusive to discard the MPP clamp over a G R A F L E X, don't you agree? Also a G R A F L E X clamp would show a text and additional lines engraved even under black paint, however those are quite hard to distinguish even from those screenshots I took, hence I tend to lean towards an MPP clamp as seen on the Barbican saber. That said . . . if the saber in the video is the same as the stunt in Luke's hand, which I posted, then it's more then likely the clamp is indeed . . . a G R A F L E X painted black, because the lever is quite visible as such ... and an MPP lever is totally different in shape :wacko

    Chaim
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
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  19. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well I'm going to disagree with the lead archivist and say it is not the original Luke saber! :lol
     
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  20. mugatu

    mugatu Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    How many screen used Luke-wielded stunt sabers are used in ESB?

    1. Laela's bladed pipe saber (does this, or any of these, have a better known name?)
    2. Short-bladed off-center Wampa Cave Graflex
    3. Bespin duel full-bladed Graflex
    4. ???

    If any of the three I have mentioned are the same saber, feel free to correct me as I am somewhat new to the stunts.

    Also, regarding the pipe saber Laela holds in the video, the clamp looks to be rubber or foam as it is thick looking. I know MPP's have rolled sides and a plastic sleeve making them appear thick, but don't they also have a reflective sheen to them? I realize decades can do wonders for dulling a sheen, but it looks completely flat black.

    thd9791, I am unable to view your attachment. Could just be me though.
     
  21. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Didn't catch that the glass eye wasn't screwed in :lol I'm on board now.Before I make conclusions, I want to know what those black thins are on the emitter in the video. It looks like someone tried to mimick the plug holes on a graflex.
     
  22. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Looks like the same hex screws as used on the Vader Graflex.
    [​IMG]
     
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  23. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm starting to think this an ESB-era stunt saber and not the original ANH Luke Graflex-style practical effects saber.
     
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  24. Sluis Van Shipyards

    Sluis Van Shipyards Master Member

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    Wow you guys are nerds. :lol ;) Is that ROTJ Luke a stunt/cast version or is that a machining mark on the pommel?

    Very cool video! Is this one of the extras from the digital versions?
     
  25. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    both of those "rotj" type sabers are resin casts. The one you're referring to has some blemish on the bottom, it looks like paint rubbed off. I have an exhibition photo somewhere..

    Picture 47.png

    The other hollow resin piece there looks like an ANH era prop. It isn't identical to this hero piece, and is hollow, which is exciting

    Also, thanks Kurtyboy for posting that close-up. note the sec screw on the inner tube as opposed to the outer on the promo shot. That....on the right of the shroud....that almost looks like a countersunk allen head screw, like the ones used on the "ROTJ Vader" saber, which was also a stunt. Are those screws part of fencing prop construction and not decor in these cases?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  26. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    On second thought.....

    That could be the original top with a different 'clamp' and bottom tube, original blade and allen bolts added during ESB.

    It looks like it still has the red button on top, and if there was a spinning blade you wouldn't have the glass eye assembly going into the saber hitting all that but the eye might have been cut down and glued on but removed after ANH. The shape of the shroud and the blade area really does look like those Hamill promo pics.
     
  27. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    It was cool to notice the black on the shroud isn't paint. In the close-up I think that black thing on the left side is it peeling off. There's still some other crap on the back of the emitter shroud we can't see very well.

    They could be the same...I have a feeling it's all one solid tube though, it appears the bottom is wide open.


    edit: ignore what I said. There's another allen bolt on the back we can see and the rest are remnants of the black peeling off! (See Chaim's photos)
     
  28. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The dueling saber made from an actual Graflex during ESB had allen bolts also to hold the blade. I've got pics somewhere at home.
     
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  29. blewis17

    blewis17 Sr Member

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    I've got an original Heiland with battery extension tubing, as well as a nice, ultra accurate GRAFLEX from a run here several years ago. Up until now, I've never really though of it much but you guys may be on to something. If they switched the lower GRAFLEX base and possibly clamp assembly from ANH to ESB, that may be why we are getting the "the top half looks like this, but the bottom half looks like this" effect and a difficult time matching what we are seeing to screen used props. I'm tempted to say that the clamp may not be painted at all, but covered in black electrical tape or Gaffer's tape.

    (for the 2 of you on the RPF who don't know, you load the Heiland Synchronar batteries through a screw off end cap at the base, but the GRAFLEX splits in the middle under the clamp assembly)

    The hollowed out Obi-Wan would make sense for the rod spinning assembly used in ANH. I've never understood how there would be room in the hero saber for a motor (cobbled together as it was from jet enginge parts, a grenade, a Graflex clamp, and a sink knob, and threaded together!)

    Yet, we can see the wire going up Alec Guiness ' robe/sleeve during parts of the Vader duel on the Death Star. And since the rods were not lit from within, it must be that he did indeed have a motor assembly in the lower half of his saber, right? Which would mean that Obi-Wan's dueling saber and cantina saber were NOT the hero handles, yes?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
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  30. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That's right. The Obi-Wan dueling saber from ANH became the Luke RotJ V2. The holes from the wire and on/off button were plugged with the fillister screw and cone knob.

     
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  31. blewis17

    blewis17 Sr Member

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    Thanks! That makes much more sense. But I've still wondered how the dueling Obi-Wan rod passed through (and spun) inside the narrow copper neck between the emitter and the body?
     
  32. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The entire emitter head spun with the blade.
     
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  33. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'd like to know what kind of motor they used cos it must've been pretty powerful yet small!
     
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  34. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'd heard somewhere the clamps had gaffer tape on them to save marks hands.

    it looks like this prop doesn't have anything but a clamp from a graflex though...I'm still laughing at this Allen bolt theme hahaha
     
  35. Romans Empire

    Romans Empire Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wish I had something better to do on a Saturday night... BUT here I am thinking "Hey, this is cool!" :lol :lol :cry
     
  36. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    More hex bolts:
    [​IMG]



    Better shot of the hollow resin casts (click thumbnail):
    hollow.jpg
     
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  37. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I was watching the ANH duel yesterday and I feel very certain the Vader blade was round and non-spinning. You can see artifacts on the blade that don't change or move. I'll bet it was a blade similar to this one and covered in reflective material, or possibly this blade.
     
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  38. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Agree with you 100%. I studied every single frame of the lightsaber scenes while making my ANH stunt replica. There was one point where it appeared that Vader's WAS spinning and Obi-Wan's had the artifacts but this was because they had switched the blade colors round! They did it in two shots that I noticed.

    I'll dig out some screenshots showing the artifacts.

    You can even see the disconnected wires on Vader's saber.


    - - - Updated - - -

    But wait... what's this!? If I had a hat I might have to eat it! :lol
    [​IMG]
     
  39. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I think the mystery is solved. The dents in the filler match perfectly.
    [​IMG]
     
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  40. James Kenobi 1138

    James Kenobi 1138 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I know it's the nature of the business but it's a shame the original saber can never be as it was originally.
     
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  41. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Here's some of the clear evidence James was talking about showing that Vader's blade doesn't spin. Follow the ding in these consecutive frames!
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Now follow the bump and see the blade colors switch.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Bump is now on a blue blade:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Blade spinning artifact on red Obi-Wan blade:
    [​IMG]
     
  42. joshvanrad

    joshvanrad Sr Member

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    That was awesome.
     
  43. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Can you guys maybe edit a small section of pic to show the dings in the filler material clearer, or something. Not seeing it over here :lol

    that being said, the idea occurred to me way back that they could have drilled through the old set screw and put another in the blade holder but I thought that was kinda dumb
     
  44. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Maybe you need to adjust your monitor. Set brightness and contrast to 50%. Most people have these set way too high for proper calibration.

     
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  45. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Hope these show it any better. Looks like two indentations very close together.
    The angle is not the same so it will look wider in the video screenshot.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  46. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thanks for these! I THINK I do see it, they're almost like little lines/ridges. You guys have an incredible eye for these things.I bet there's even marks on the rim that match up.

    weird that they added black tape/skin/whatever lower on the emitter.
     
  47. halliwax

    halliwax Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wait a minute wait a minute.... obiwans blade turns red in a few frames!?!?
     
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  48. blewis17

    blewis17 Sr Member

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    My guess is that a Luke ANH saber was quick modified to serve as a Vader ESB dueling saber, and black paint or tape was added at the shroud/emitter and clamp to make it look more like a Heiland


    BY THE WAY: were there one or two Hero ANH Obi-Wan sabers? There's one in the Chronicles book, but have these ever been seen outside of that publication? Do the ANH Hero Obi-Wan sabers still exist?
     
  49. Anakin Starkiller

    Anakin Starkiller Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I don't think this is evidence that the blade doesn't spin, because the consistency of the artifact that you're seeing in the blade does not look to me to be an element of the stunt blade, but instead an element in the rotoscoping done on top of the on set blade.

    The ANH fight scenes were shot with spinning reflective blades because they thought they could make to lightsabers with practical on set effects. But when they didn't like how they ended up coming out, they rotoscoped on top of the blade to make it look better. So we really can't look at screen grabs to show us the blades as they were on set because the rotoscope blades have been drawn over the on set blades.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't think this is evidence that the blade doesn't spin, because the consistency of the artifact that you're seeing in the blade does not look to me to be an element of the stunt blade, but instead an element in the rotoscoping done on top of the on set blade.

    The ANH fight scenes were shot with spinning reflective blades because they thought they could make to lightsabers with practical on set effects. But when they didn't like how they ended up coming out, they rotoscoped on top of the blade to make it look better. So we really can't look at screen grabs to show us the blades as they were on set because the rotoscope blades have been drawn over the on set blades.
     
  50. scarf man

    scarf man Sr Member

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    MPP microflash, not Heiland.

    The jury is out. There may have been two, there may have been one that was repaired/rebuilt. The saber does look different from the location shoot in Tunisia, to the studio shots on the Death Star.
    No clear pics of the prop have been seen outside of the Chronicles, and Mechismo books.
    The saber may be in some black hole collection, disassembled & returned to the rental company (Bapty), or who nows really. One day the saber may just show up like the Blade Runner blaster.


    Interesting thread fellas! By gum, it's been a while.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
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