One thing the Mandalorian did do - ST

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I hope the lesson learned here is not that gritty samurai stories or adorable merchandise characters, or frequent fanservice are required to make Star Wars great. The secret is planning. Bring on a story teller and have them lay it all out on the table and then you can bring in directors that can best tell us a segment of that story.

I thought (and still do) that TFA was a pretty great movie. It told a very basic story that was intended to make you feel like the old Star Wars was back. It set up a lot of questions that could have made a very compelling 3 film story and it was my assumption that they knew where it was all headed. Unfortunately we have learned that was not the case. When you lack a predetermined destination the audience can feel it. It becomes less like joining characters on a journey and more like being shoved from one scene to another just hoping the next one will be more pleasant then the previous.

I hope Dave and Jon never let the studio pull them away from this principal.


Signeddiamond
 

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HMSwolfe

Sr Member
The original idea with Luke was from George (and thank goodness the microbial world of midichlorians will never come to happen) and we continue to see hints of his "vision" in all the new material...

I don't think I'm saying anything nuts when I say that George has long since lost his way with Star Wars and hasn't known what to do with it for a long time. The great shame is that it seems no one does either.
I respect George greatly, and as a fellow creative, I understand the frustration at having his creation wrestled away from him so many times.

But I’m not sure he ever got what made the first three films great. It truly was lightning in a bottle, an end result greater than the sum of its parts. So many collaborated, and so many events outside anyone’s control, contributed to the long-lasting impact of those films. Slavishly clinging to “George’s word”, and likewise, demonizing him for “ruining Star Wars”, are very extreme reactions, both of which I’ve had, and both of which I’ve moved past.
 

Spyhunter2k

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I had to get out of the Mando thread itself to avoid Joek3rr otherwise I would have brought this up in that thread. I just couldn't stand to get sucked into his vortex of "the ST is awesome and you're stupid for not loving it with undying devotion." I've been debating him endlessly on loop for the last 3 years ever since that movie came out and I just can't do it anymore. I really hope he doesn't pop into this thread because I'll have to abandon this one too or give him the privilege of being the first person to be put on ignore.

...

He's the first and only person I've ever put on ignore. 'Twas the best decision I've made since joining the rpf. I don't think you should hesitate to do the same if he's causing you the same grief as was the case with me.

As to your other points, yeah man I have to admit that having the terrible taste of the ST as the last SW I consumed prior to the Mandalorian lowered the bar a bit, and influenced how good I thought it was. I almost didn't even begin to watch it. My confidence in any SW attached to Disney had been so completely destroyed.

But to be honest, I think that I would like the Mandalorian just as much even if not for the terrible ST. I think you're seeing more flaws in the show than the average Joe. I hate that for you, because if you can allow yourself a few points of inconsistency or imperfect logic, about the same amount—if we're being completely honest—we allow ourselves when we enjoy the OT (sorry, Ewoks would never be able to defeat Empire machinery in ROTJ no matter how many well-placed log traps were involved), the Mandalorian really can be a fun ride and allow you to experience some of the same child-like joy as the OT brought.

With any story that isn't based on real events, there are bound to be things that, upon study, don't tie up neatly with everything else. The storyteller can make his story only so watertight as far as continuity, logic, etc. I think they're doing an admirable job. Hate that it's falling so far short for you.
 

AnubisGuard

Sr Member
I must be some kind of freak alien specimen, because I think TLJ and the Mandalorian are the two best pieces of media to come out of the Disney acquisition, on par with each other, though I enjoy them in different ways.

I do hate the Abrams crap, but that's just from how derivative and stupid it is, rehashes of the OT's greatest hits. Now that was insulting, like he and Kasdan seriously thought we don't want to ever see anything new.
 

HMSwolfe

Sr Member
I must be some kind of freak alien specimen, because I think TLJ and the Mandalorian are the two best pieces of media to come out of the Disney acquisition, on par with each other, though I enjoy them in different ways.

I do hate the Abrams crap, but that's just from how derivative and stupid it is, rehashes of the OT's greatest hits. Now that was insulting, like he and Kasdan seriously thought we don't want to ever see anything new.
I liked TLJ as well, and I still do in some ways, in that it did try to push Star Wars back on to a good path, demonstrating that Abrams’ mystery boxes were all flash and no substance. I have my own theories about the Canto Bight subplot which have to do with pleasing potentially racist Chinese audiences, but yeah. And I have much, much more respect for Rian Johnson than I do Abrams.
 
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PoopaPapaPalps

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I respect George greatly, and as a fellow creative, I understand the frustration at having his creation wrestled away from him so many times.

But I’m not sure he ever got what made the first three films great. It truly was lightning in a bottle, an end result greater than the sum of its parts. So many collaborated, and so many events outside anyone’s control, contributed to the long-lasting impact of those films. Slavishly clinging to “George’s word”, and likewise, demonizing him for “ruining Star Wars”, are very extreme reactions, both of which I’ve had, and both of which I’ve moved past.

Agreed.

I liked TLJ as well, and I still do in some ways, in that it did try to push Star Wars back on to a good path...And I have much, much more respect for Rian Johnson than I do Abrams.

While I liked some ideas of TLJ, and do agree that it tried to do something different, I felt it was a complete failure in execution. A part of me felt that had it been a more competently made film, and was the first of the new series, things would be completely different today. And for the better.
 

HMSwolfe

Sr Member
Agreed.



While I liked some ideas of TLJ, and do agree that it tried to do something different, I felt it was a complete failure in execution. A part of me felt that had it been a more competently made film, and was the first of the new series, things would be completely different today. And for the better.
Yep. At this point, it’s mostly in concept that I like it. Execution plays a big part, and TLJ is no exception. And there are big parts I certainly dislike greatly. Laura Dern comes to mind, primarily…
 

AnubisGuard

Sr Member
Yep. At this point, it’s mostly in concept that I like it. Execution plays a big part, and TLJ is no exception. And there are big parts I certainly dislike greatly. Laura Dern comes to mind, primarily…

That storyline works until the reveal, and then the Holdo Maneuver also works great (yes, I know, canon breaking yadda yadda, I mean as a payoff to her arc), but they just don't jell together. It's easy to see why the Finn stuff doesn't work -- outside his initial decision to go on the mission, he's very passive and doesn't actually change as a character at the start vs. the end of the movie -- but the Poe/Holdo plot is harder to crack, and I think it just comes down to the order that information is revealed to the audience. If the key theme of the movie is failure, then Poe's insubordination and Holdo's lack of transparency are a tragedy. Not just in the sense of bad things happening, but dramatically, like Julius Caesar. I think Johnson should have given up on wanting to surprise the audience and revealed both sides of the conflict up front, then let us sit back and squirm as things head towards inevitable disaster - Caesar's betrayal and death just don't work if you, the audience, don't realize at the beginning that everyone will betray him (imagine if Shakespeare had subverted expectations by having the stabbing be a surprise!).

As-is, Holdo's personality before and after the reveal is impossible to reconcile -- is she cold and firm, or warm and forgiving? The movie wants it both ways.
 

HMSwolfe

Sr Member
That storyline works until the reveal, and then the Holdo Maneuver also works great (yes, I know, canon breaking yadda yadda, I mean as a payoff to her arc), but they just don't jell together. It's easy to see why the Finn stuff doesn't work -- outside his initial decision to go on the mission, he's very passive and doesn't actually change as a character at the start vs. the end of the movie -- but the Poe/Holdo plot is harder to crack, and I think it just comes down to the order that information is revealed to the audience. If the key theme of the movie is failure, then Poe's insubordination and Holdo's lack of transparency are a tragedy. Not just in the sense of bad things happening, but dramatically, like Julius Caesar. I think Johnson should have given up on wanting to surprise the audience and revealed both sides of the conflict up front, then let us sit back and squirm as things head towards inevitable disaster - Caesar's betrayal and death just don't work if you, the audience, don't realize at the beginning that everyone will betray him (imagine if Shakespeare had subverted expectations by having the stabbing be a surprise!).

As-is, Holdo's personality before and after the reveal is impossible to reconcile -- is she cold and firm, or warm and forgiving? The movie wants it both ways.
I think Poe has probably the best character development of the film, but it comes at the cost of an incompetent leader who had no reason to withhold information other than the script requiring it.
 

AnubisGuard

Sr Member
I think Poe has probably the best character development of the film, but it comes at the cost of an incompetent leader who had no reason to withhold information other than the script requiring it.

Well, yeah, but I think that could be alleviated by telling part of the story from her perspective from the beginning. We never see Poe directly cause her problems, just cause Leia problems, and so we have no idea how she perceives working with him. I think Poe's near-suicidal attack run is supposed to justify it, but since Leia is right out of the movie after he pulls that crap on her it doesn't work. I suppose another way to handle the problem would be to cut Holdo entirely and give the entire plot to Leia. We already know her and we know her issue with Poe, so if she shuts him out it would make more sense.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a superior officer to not share critical info with an insubordinate , but we need to see that.
 

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DARKSIDE72

Sr Member
I can easily say I will never watch the ST dumpster fire ever again. Even though there are some aspects of TFA I enjoy ( Han/Chewie , Falcon).

The Mandalorian goes a long way to prove what a great story, characters/cast, can do. Ending Mando and Grogu's story with Luke was pure genius and took major balls. I'm so happy for Mark Hamill as he hated what they did to his character.
I'm also extremely happy the Fett character is getting the same treatment. I always felt the coolest looking OT character was cheated by Lucas on screen.
 

NakedMoleRat

Master Member
If only Luke had left the scene in TLJ because when Ben turned, he sensed Palpatine’s presence re-emerging in the force and set off to find him and destroy him


Rey seeks him out to save the galaxy from Kylo Ren and upon finding him, realizes that helping Luke take down the emperor will restore the peace.....

Luke sees what she can become and trains her as they track down the emperor.

Oh, what could have been.
 

veektohr

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I'll die on the hill that it should have been the Organa-Solo Maneuver.

At the end of the day all that I care about is Mando has me enjoying SW again, which is a nice feeling.

I'm just moving on from the ST, personally. The first two have their individual merits, yadda yadda yadda. None of the things that bother me in TFA or TLJ compare to my feelings on RoS lol. To me that film was a franchise killer.

If I hadn't had the goodwill of having seen S1 of Mando before RoS I might have just checked out entirely for the next ten years at least.
 

Kroenen77

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I think Mando brings back a little bit of the 80s back.We all love our old heros and mystic stories around them.So I think the series is the perfect connection from old and new things.I really loved the new action scenes with Luke because that was exact what I wanted to see in TLJ years ago.
 

Egon Spengler

Master Member
I'll die on the hill that it should have been the Organa-Solo Maneuver.

At the end of the day all that I care about is Mando has me enjoying SW again, which is a nice feeling.

I'm just moving on from the ST, personally. The first two have their individual merits, yadda yadda yadda. None of the things that bother me in TFA or TLJ compare to my feelings on RoS lol. To me that film was a franchise killer.

If I hadn't had the goodwill of having seen S1 of Mando before RoS I might have just checked out entirely for the next ten years at least.


I agree, that Leia should have done the maneuver if it were going to be anyone.
 

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veektohr

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The irony in saying it would have given that moment more impact... but it would have. Have Luke feels that loss through the force, which is what motivates him to try one last time and-- oh god what am I doing this needs to stop my therapist told me to stop.
 

NakedMoleRat

Master Member
I agree, that Leia should have done the maneuver if it were going to be anyone.
Except no one was expecting Fisher to die after filming the second movie.

TFA was Han’s movie.

TLJ was Luke’s.

TROS was supposed to be Leah’s.

If they had known that Carrie was going to die, they might have had her done that and saved Luke for a battle with Palpatine.
 

cboath

Master Member
Except no one was expecting Fisher to die after filming the second movie.

TFA was Han’s movie.

TLJ was Luke’s.

TROS was supposed to be Leah’s.

If they had known that Carrie was going to die, they might have had her done that and saved Luke for a battle with Palpatine.
What we got was
TFA was Han's movie, and HF got what he wanted and had a good role on his way out
TLJ eviscerated Luke's character
TROS never had it's focus as Carrie died...

1 of 3 is only good baseball.

Seems as if the only real plan was to have 1 feature each of the three, but to be stupid enough never to put all three in the same shot - or for that matter the same planet - at the same time.
 

NakedMoleRat

Master Member
When Carrie died they must have crapped themselves.

“Poop, we’ve killed the rest off. What are we going to do?”

“Billy D is still alive...”

“We’re saved!”
 

cboath

Master Member
When Carrie died they must have crapped themselves.

“Poop, we’ve killed the rest off. What are we going to do?”

“Billy D is still alive...”

“We’re saved!”
I thought the same thing :) Other than the Billy D part.

Still not sure how you bring them all back and make the conscious decision to never give them a scene together. It's like making the super bowl and thinking you'll outcoach the other side by playing your 3rd string qb instead of the starter.
 

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